#591 AI Can Scale Outreach. It Cannot Build Trust | Ari Galper, Creator of Trust-Based Selling

Mehmet: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome back to an opposite of the CTO Show with Mehmet Today I'm very pleased joining me from Sydney, Australia. Ari Galper, he's bestselling author for multiple books, but recently he, you know, authored a book called Trust-Based Selling. Um, uh, I don't like to steal much from my guest time. I keep it to my guest to introduce themselves, but before this, I like to give a teaser to, to our audience.

So today we're gonna talk a lot about. You know, sales go to market in the age of ai and you know how all these things are changing, uh, and you know, of course, what lessons can Ari share with us today regarding this? Without further ado, Ari, thank you again very much for being here with me today. It's a pleasure and honor to have you, um, give us like your, you know, introduction, like background journey, what you're currently up to, and then we can start discussion from there.

So the floor is you. 

Ari: Sure, sure. So, I, I specialize in what's called trust based selling. It's a niche I've been [00:01:00] developing for the last 25 years actually, and have a large following, written, obviously seven books, um, and, uh, have a lot of success. The concept is that, uh, you approach a potential opportunity, uh, in a different model, uh, without the goal of making the sale, but instead focusing on the truth of whether the problem is serious enough.

For them to commit to. And you de you decide not them, whether it makes sense for them to move forward with you or not. So it's very much a shift in thinking worth more of a doctor patient conversation than you trying to build value, uh, do free consulting, relationship building, all those things we're taught to do.

Um, we teach people not to do any of that presale, so there's no relationship building, there's no chasing people, there's no follow up. It's a complete opposite of what the traditional model of selling is all about. Okay. 

Mehmet: That's a very interesting place to start with Ari, actually, uh, [00:02:00] I work in sales also as well.

And, um, you know, this is the narrative as you mentioned, that we've been, you know, taught for, for a long time while preparing for the episode, I see that you talk a lot about trust recession, right? 

Ari: Yes, yes. 

Mehmet: Um. What is broken? And from your experience, like is it like the buyers who are changing or like the sellers are trying to outsmart systems?

What's going on there? 

Ari: Great question. So yes, the buyers have shifted since COVID. So I have coined a term called the trust recession. And what I mean by that is that. Now, in this day and age, the world has been so commoditized in terms of offer solutions are similar to other competitors that you, your potential clients and leads and prospects are in shopping mode, right?

They're shopping around for a solution. They see [00:03:00] your solution online, they see your website, your LinkedIn profile. They already know what you do. It's not a mystery. Then when they get to us as a new lead in a conversation. We're still using the pre, sorry, the, the pre COVID old model. Mm-hmm. Of no, like and trust where we're trying to deliver value.

We provide education and we do what I call free consulting. We give as much value as possible to show the person that we have the expertise to solve their problem. Now, the challenge with that is that is seen as selling, delivering value, providing education has been commoditized. And when you do all that in our first meeting with someone, what happens is.

They then want to go think about it. 'cause you gave them information to process and then it's now complicated in their mind. They have to now process the information and you have to, then the last stage is you have to chase them, follow up with them. Now you're stuck in this loop chasing more leads, giving value, doing free consulting, playing the numbers game.

That's the loop most salespeople and [00:04:00] businesses are in right now, and they assume that's normal In our world, it's not normal. 

Mehmet: Right now, I, there's one thing before I, you know, it's very important what you mentioned. I'm gonna go ask deep dive questions in this, because, you know, I agree with you on a lot of things, and this is, you know, my, my whole theory that I developed also similar to use, and actually it's.

Even before COVID, but COVID I think was the trigger that, you know, pushed people to go this direction. But still till now, people think because, you know. And I like, you know, the, the way how many author they would put it. Like, you know, our brains get trained in a certain way. So we keep in that empty loop.

And when I'm talking to a lot of people, especially founders of course, especially if they are like still trying to learn the thing, so they, the first thing they tell me, oh, we have a pipeline problem. Uh. And I've seen like also you [00:05:00] say like it's a trust problem and you say like, you know, it's, and you mentioned the doctor, you know, um, patient relation here, so.

Tell me, you know, how we can diagnose that in, in that conversation. Like, okay, is it really a, a pipeline problem or is it something else? Maybe it's a trust problem that's causing, you know, not having people showing up on your website or maybe having the conversations that you aim to as, as a business owner or like as as a startup founder.

Ari: Yeah. Most founders are data-driven. They're running their numbers on the, uh, their, based on the numbers, and they're looking at data points in their CRM, looking at conversions, looking at leads coming in stages. That's has nothing to do with dealing with the issue of converting the lead to a client. The issue is missing here is trust.

Trust is the missing component that most funders do not understand how to manage, how to develop and how to train. And so [00:06:00] what they do is they put more numbers in their pipeline and they run everything off a dashboard and they're banging their head against the wall saying, why are we not? Making more sales.

We have leads coming in, we have sales teams on the phone, and it turns out the problem is the communication that occurs between the buyer and the seller and how that first meeting begins. Because my theory, and I've tried to approve this for many times, is a sale is lost at hello and not at the end of your cycle yet.

We are pushing people down a long sales cycle, and so my whole approach is called the one call sale. We're in one single meeting. The first meeting. I'm not saying a signed contract, of course. Mm-hmm. There's multiple. But I'm suggesting to you, if you do the first call right, with my model, they'll commit to you to a next step on your calendar.

Not you chase them to initiate a process with you. 

Mehmet: Ari, what? You know, as we started the conversation. [00:07:00] I would bet like maybe 98, if, I don't want to say 99% of people who comes and learn about sales have been trained about Yeah. You know, like persuasion is everything. Um, you know. The, your funnel is, is not updated.

Of course, we, we had like discussions about the CRMs and you know, like updating the CRMs and you're not controlling the thing. And then, you know, I work in, in technology and in B2B specifically, and there, there are like these different, I would say, uh, qualification methodologies. We have also like the follow up, like the playbooks and all this.

Honestly, you know what was mind opener for me is the ai and then I started to figure out like how robotic we were. And then now we com we go and complain about ai. So like you flip that completely with your theory, like I want you to dig more in [00:08:00] showing like. Why that old model is completely wrong. Like why we need to change the mindset of salespeople, um, to have, you know, having the discussion with enterprise customers, with like anyone on the same level as you just described it as a doctor, not, not as just a sales guy.

Ari: Here's why, because we have all been brought up in the know, like, and trust model. We believe our potential leads have to like us, get to know us. We have to create a relationship with them, and that extends the entire cycle because trust is not created until the end of the cycle. At the beginning, that's the problem.

So what I have discovered is that you have to remove the no, remove the like, and only focus on trust from the beginning. And that's gonna be difficult for people who've been trained. To [00:09:00] be sales oriented, persuasion relationships, adding value, following up with people. That's exactly the wrong things people should be doing.

Mehmet: I mean, if I want to put this into practice right now, the old model say like, we develop a, you know, a value proposition messaging, right? We train everyone around it. And then we put that on the website and then we get like bunch of people, you want to call them SDR, you want to call them inside sales, whatever.

And we go out and we start to reach out to people Now. Matter of fact what I'm seeing, because I also interview a lot of founders here and what I've seen, the difference between the ones who are succeeding and you know, getting this zero to one kind of, you know, from sales [00:10:00] motion perspective, are the ones who are like spending time building trust through what we call it founder led growth.

They are showing their face. On Link it in and other, you know, publications. They are like trying to, to establish this, the thought leadership while the ones who are still stuck in the old model, they blame, oh, the competition is tough. Um, I'm not getting the right people here. Just as someone who, who.

Believe in the theory that I believe in. Actually, you, you, you might have, you know, get out, uh, with it before me, but are you seeing this kind of founder led growth, uh, and GTM strategies better working rather than building the old way? In another way, if I want to simplify this, if I am a founder today and I want to apply this [00:11:00] trust.

Um, based selling, where should I start? What, what can I start doing today so I don't get stuck in the old model? 

Ari: Well, you're talking about personality positioning. 

Mehmet: Mm-hmm. 

Ari: That's not selling. Okay. When I say selling, I, I'm talking about tactical one-on-one. You and someone else on a Zoom meeting for a first call that's selling.

The founder led growth is a very broad term that does not necessarily address every element underneath it. Now of course, you're much better off having personally driven business where you're positioned in the media, uh, as an expert at what you do. That absolutely has leveraged an advantage, but you could have all of that.

Then you get on the Zoom call or teams meeting with someone new who's a qualified lead, you can do the complete opposite and start talking about your firm, start providing value, start becoming their friend, do a live demo, and then see instead of quote, and then chase them. And now you're stuck [00:12:00] even regardless of all the visibility you have as a founder.

So there's two levels, the strategic positioning. Then there's the doctor patient framework and, and the languaging I created to build that trust on the live first meeting. 

Mehmet: Right. Now, you talked about Ari, the, the, the one hour call sale call. Right? The one call. 

The 

Ari: one call sale. 

Mehmet: One call sale. Sorry. Yeah.

Um, so some people might think this is unrealistic, but I'm sure you have like. Proof point for that. What actually needs to happen in that call for it 

Ari: to, let's do an example. Let's do an example. And the reason why people can't believe it is because they're conditioned. To do. No, like, and then trust. Trust comes down the road.

Long sales cycle. 

Mehmet: Mm-hmm. 

Ari: So I'll show you an example right now, what I mean by that. Okay. Please, to eliminate the first two [00:13:00] and a real example, alive. Okay? 

Mehmet: Yes. 

Ari: Let's say, for example, me, that you have a new opportunity, a new lead that's agreed to meet with you on Zoom or Teams. Mm-hmm. A new, and you can see they're fairly qualified.

Okay, so let me ask you a question. Let's say show up on Zoom. You show up on Zoom and there you are. They are. How do you begin your meeting from there typically? 

Mehmet: Uh, usually I thank them for joining the call. 

Ari: Why? 

Mehmet: Um, because they, you're, 

Ari: you're the doctor. They're the patient. Doctors don't thank their patients for ch coming to the meeting.

See you're doing. You're doing everything unconsciously right now that I'm suggesting to you, is you are being conducive to the prospect. You're thanking them for their time, yet you, they have a problem and you're the expert. They should be thanking you for your time. For showing up. So thank you. Thank you for playing along with me here.

I [00:14:00] wanna give you an idea of what I mean by the old habits. 

Mehmet: I'm, I'm happy we're doing this. 

Ari: So, so you say, you say, thank you for coming today. And I say, thank you, appreciate that. So where do you go from there? What do you normally say from there? 

Mehmet: Um, so the first thing I need to, I need to be prepared and look how actually we booked this meeting.

Like what was the cause? Like this is what I, 

Ari: let's just say you, you, they, they sent an inquiry. They scheduled a call and they show up. They're CEO of a company. They fit your profile. Forget preparation. There they are. They're on the calendar and there you are. What do you do after? Thank you for, for coming today.

Mehmet: Yeah. The traditional way, which I also would do is like start to asking them again the discovery questions. Like, oh, like, uh, so you guys, you filled this form. Like can you tell me a little bit more about what you have? Like what kind of. Problems. You, you, you are facing today. You know, the traditional, you know, playbook of, um, of any discovery call.

Ari: Okay? Don't do any of [00:15:00] that, 

Mehmet: okay? 

Ari: And stop having discovery calls for your first meeting. Your first meeting is a trust call, not a discovery call. 

Mehmet: Mm-hmm. 

Ari: If you're asking fact finding questions, they're not gonna tell you the truth 'cause they don't trust you yet. They're gonna give you a few breadcrumbs and you're gonna be excited and you're gonna, so, okay, let let, let's start, let's, let's try our approach, okay?

Mehmet: Mm-hmm. Sure. 

Ari: Thank you for playing along with me there. Okay. Very patient. Thank you, patient, man. So, in our model, you're the doctor. They're the patient. When they show up on Zoom, here's what you do. First thing you say is nice to meet you, MAED. Nice to meet you as well.

That's it. 

Mehmet: Silence. 

Ari: Next thing you say is this. If it's okay with you, if you wouldn't mind, take a step back for a moment, walk and bit through your background, your situation, and up to your current concerns you have related to whatever you do, [00:16:00] technology or finances, your business model. And we'll go from there.

Would that be okay with you? And take it fingers like this over your mouth. Like a doctor. Sit back in a chair like this, like a therapist.

Mehmet: Yeah. 

Ari: What, what does this do for you? First of all, what does this help you do? 

Mehmet: Uh, not talk. 

Ari: Don't talk. That's the hardest part you're gonna have a problem with. And everyone else listening today, don't talk. Position yourself as the expert in the room. It's not about you. They don't wanna hear your voice.

Nothing personal. They just don't want to hear you. They want to tell their story, but what do we do? Nice to meet you. Where are you from? Really? Oh, great. How'd you hear about us? And now we're all friends. That's the problem with that is that's called a peer to peer relationship. When you're peer to peer and friends, you're not the doctor.

You can't ask the hard questions. You can't get to the truth. You can't do your job. When you see a doctor, they don't say to you, oh, [00:17:00] let's have lunch first. Have a cup of cup. Cup of coffee would be great. Lemme tell you about me. I went to medical school here. My, they don't talk about themselves, but what do we do?

We start asking questions and talking about ourselves. Anyways, so you go like this and they start talking. I promise they'll start talking right from the beginning. Let's all downloading on you as you're listening to their problems, what will your brain start doing in the back of your mind? Your system Start doing what?

Mehmet: Uh, it's trying to just position, you know, ah, like they mentioned this. Like, let's, let's, let's tell them about that feature. Let's tell them about that. Yes. You're 

Ari: listening for the purpose of trying to move them to a next step. 

Mehmet: Exactly. 

Ari: That's not listening. That's your own agenda. To move them down a process they know they're already in and that triggers pressure and breaks trust right there.

You listen without an agenda, do not move them forward. Do not try and solve their problem. And that's [00:18:00] called the expert syndrome. 'cause you know your materials so well. When you hear a qualified prospect discuss their problem, your system goes perfect. We can fix that. They're qualified. How many locations?

Oh my God. See we start to the alarms, we start to get excited. Because now they fit our profile. Seeing 

Mehmet: dollar signs. 

Ari: Yes. Now it's about you. And they can feel that from you. They can tell you're not genuine. They know you have an agenda. You're not authentic. 

Mehmet: You cannot, yeah. You just try to do like this. Oh, okay, now they're gonna slot in me.

Now you're, 

Ari: you're breaking trust with them because they could see you're playing a game. 

Mehmet: Right. 

Ari: And this is where all these sales get destroyed at. Hello. No ai, no CRM, no founder led model, no cadence, no workflows, nothing. Just the actual conversation itself, 

Mehmet: which is actually like the human way to do it, right?

[00:19:00] The natural way. 

Ari: Yes. But we got so wired and programmed and condition to play a game and not be ourselves that we just get caught up in it because. There's, I make a joke about this. We get, we get this drug in our bodies called hopium. 

Mehmet: You 

Ari: know, the hopium drug where you get excited. Now you, you hope you get the deal.

You're excited and you, we, you gotta stay, stay centered and breathe and have bedside manner, have empathy. Lemme continue the process here. So they tell you their problem. You listen when they're done talking, here's what you say. You say, so what I understand your core issues are, are X, Y, and Z. Is that correct?

And they go, exactly tick box number one. He's listening to me. He is not talking. I think he might be okay. And this question you ask is this one. How long has this been concerned [00:20:00] for you for? 

Mehmet: Mm-hmm. 

Ari: Every question always go like that afterwards. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. What have you done so far on your own up until now to try and address this?

This sent, this sends a message. This tells them you're not talking today at all. It's not about you. 

Mehmet: That's good for me. 

Ari: It's not about your company, not about your services. Your diagnostic mode only, not the pharmacy mode that dispenses the medicine that's down the road. Stop being the pharmacist. Be the doctor.

Okay. 

Mehmet: Yeah. This is the last thing.

Ari: Everybody confuses it. They try and be the doctor and the pharmacist all in one and they'll hold. It gets messy at the end of the meeting. You know what they say to you? They say, I'd like to think about it. 

Mehmet: Yeah, we'll come back to you. 

Ari: And here you are. You say, what? I, they're [00:21:00] perfect. I gave value. We are a good fit.

Not gonna chase them. Oh, I'll get more leads. That's the way sales is. No, that's the trust recession.

Right? Nobody realizes that they're sleepwalking. They think it's ai, it's the pipeline. It's at least no, it's you. It's your approach to the other human. And that's the gap between AI and trust. As AI gets better, people who sell have to get better at trust building and stop getting better at selling.

Selling itself is the problem. It's the core issue that blocks trust. That sounds ridiculous to tell someone. Stop selling. Stop reading sales books and stop following up with people. 

Mehmet: I. Right. 

Ari: People don't wanna be sold. They don't wanna be chased. They don't want to quote, they don't wanna follow up. They hate it.[00:22:00] 

Mehmet: Yeah, they don't like it. 

Ari: So why are we doing it? 'cause that's all we know to do. We assume that's the way it is. That's the game. 

Mehmet: Can I share something with you? I think I shared with a couple of people. Um, I'm not sure if I have said on the podcast before, so I, I was working, you know. At vendors and you know, applying the same thing.

And then, you know, 2023, I went by myself. I became kind of independent. I don't have a vendor hat or something like this, so I start to meet some of. Potential clients or some of them, they were my clients before, and I asked this question. I said, listen, I know for a fact that sometimes you are not shopping for a solution, but you still have.

You still have the call. Why you do this? He said, you know what? Sometime I need to fill the agenda with something, right? He said, and you know what? I hate the guy like talking for 30 minutes, and he didn't ask me [00:23:00] even one single question. I said, why you don't stop them? And he said like, you know, yeah, but I'm still want to be like a nice guy.

I don't want like people to think like I'm harsh or like I'm, you know, like, um, non-white or something like this. I said, you are very patient guy. I said, if I, if someone phones me or like ask me for a meeting and this proposing something that I don't want, I said, Hey. I have no time. Your time is always so precious, like, you know, I would not waste your time and my time for the sake of both of us.

So I think this is, this is very important. I give this example Aria. I'm not sure if it can fit of what you have said as well. I ask, I, I challenge people sometime by asking this question. So let's, let's take it like very simple thing. You go to a shopping mall and you have like two shops that sell.

Almost the same thing. Why do you think someone will shop from a place rather than the other place? Although, like they have promoters there, right. [00:24:00] 

Ari: Probably 'cause it's no comfortable with, with the human being in the process. 

Mehmet: Exactly. This is, this is, this is exactly the thing. Now in the process, so you said like no follow ups.

You say like, you know, we don't need to chase Right. The question is if all this, you know, we apply this, why do you think still sometime we might have deals that are stuck? Okay. You mentioned procurement, maybe they have to get signatures, but if, if the deal get to get stuck somehow, is it because of the pricing?

Is it because of, you know, there's a gatekeeper there? Like what, what could be some of the reasons? 

Ari: It depends. It depends on the scenario. You know, I'd have to go a deeper dive how the deal. Um, but typically long sales cycles are indicative of a lack of trust. 

Mm-hmm. 

Ari: Okay. And I, my, my, my business case here, and I've proven this many times before, is if you can.

To work only on trust building within your complex deals, you'll compress a sales [00:25:00] cycle because your, your ambassador, your champion, will want to move this forward because you've helped them build a business case for it. And the, the, the law, what I call the cost of an action, not ROI, but COI, the cost of them not fixing the problem is more expensive.

Every day they wait and that creates urgency for them. So if, if people are selling ROI, they should stop immediately. People don't, people, that's future selling. Oh, if you do this, you get the five years from now, you get your return back. Really? They don't believe you. Anyway. So stop selling ROI sell COI, which is what's the cost or impact your business right now.

By having the problem, what's impact? How's it impacting your revenue? How's it impacting your cross structure now, not five years from now. 

Mehmet: Yeah. We used to call it the, I mean not everyone but me and I had a colleague, we, we used to tell people cost of doing nothing like CDN, same thing. 

That's 

Ari: right. Cost of an action.

Correct. 

Mehmet: Yeah. But again, you know the way, [00:26:00] and this where, you know, I. I disagree with people who, because they still have that mindset in the background. Like you create a, if you create too much a fake urgency, this fires back. Also sometimes like, 

Ari: yeah, there's no fake urgency here. 'cause not your urgency is their urgency.

Mehmet: Exactly. And also like the other thing. Yeah, go ahead Brad, please. 

Ari: And, and they have to own it. So you might help them build a business case for them. But here's the key phrase you have to ask on their first meeting, and that is this, is this a priority for you? To resolve once and for all to fix this and stop lose, losing the, losing what you're losing?

Or are you happy to leave it as it is and we'll kick it down the road? Down the road? I, I'm okay either way. 

Mehmet: Right. And you know, like the other mistake, I've seen people doing it so they exaggerate to extent that they look so desperate. And actually some people might take advantage of that because, you know, they start to throw free stuff and the other part would say, [00:27:00] okay.

Hmm. Like, these guys looks desperate. Let me use that to my benefit. Let's get free stuff. Let's get like free licensing gear, free consultation there, you know, and it drags and drags and drag and, and then nothing happens. So, absolutely. Now, aria, I know you have built something interesting. You built Ari AI as a trust-based AI system, right?

Tell me a little bit more about it and how did you choose to opt, optimize it for trust rather than anything else? 

Ari: Well, I've been, I have 25 years of work, 17 million words of all my publications, all my work, all my recordings, over 25 years, and I never made it public. I kept it for myself. And then all of a sudden AI came around last year and I realized, oh, thank God I did that, because now I have proprietary wisdom and expertise that I can now put into a proprietary AI model that's not publicly available to anybody except if you're a member of [00:28:00] mine in my world.

You can then, you can literally speak to me. It's my voice, my tonality, uh, and my knowledge. You can basically ask me questions. You can bring a scenario, you can provide an email, and I'll rewrite it for you automatically. Uh, in real time. A lot of, we have a lot of experts that we're using and paying for this tool, for the purpose of, uh, dealing with complex scenarios.

They can't get ahold of somebody on the phone. What do they say? Um, how do they reply to somebody who's rejected them? The, the response to the languaging is always trust based, not sales based. So if you go to like the general public, like a, a ai, uh, open AI or something like that tool, you try and search my stuff in there, you're only gonna get 10%.

Oh, it's public. The rest is not, it's all private, 90%. And that's what our AI is. It's basically a live coach. It's 24 7 that you use to help you convert the leads that you have. 

Mehmet: Right. And I think it's a strategic decision that you kept the control for this, uh, Ari. Um, [00:29:00] now we are seeing like a lot of people and you know, my LinkedIn feed is full of this.

People who are trying to actually utilize ai and the feedback I'm hearing from both people in sales and you know, customers that it made it worse. You know, we are not happy about what we are seeing. Why do you think, is that, like, is there some fixing needs to happen first, uh, before adopting the AI in sales and how, how that that can work for them in case they, they say, okay, let's utilize this technology to, to our benefit.

Ari: Well, there's two pieces of the puzzle here. Mm-hmm. There's lead generation and there's conversion. So the question is how are you using it? If you're trying to use it for lead generation and you're spamming it, or you're using it through LinkedIn, you just have to make sure that the languaging that is conveyed is fully authentic and non-automated.

I get that all the time, [00:30:00] but you know, these AI bots, they scan my profile. And they say, Mr. Galper, I noticed you've been very successful using your trust-based approach. You know, and they copy my profile in different words. I'm like, oh my God, please. You know, you can tell, you really could tell if it's natural and human and maybe you can't tell, but either way.

You're degrading your cognitive abilities by not being able to communicate with people specifically in a way that is human, where they can relate to you by attempting to use a tool to replace yourself. 

Mehmet: Great. One thing also, while preparing, of course, I had, um, you know, some, some of the materials that your team shared with me, and there's one.

One thing that stopped me, which is, you know, the differentiation between funnel versus cylinder. Uh, when we talk about like, okay, so, so for people who are not familiar with sales, so [00:31:00] we call it the funnel, right? So it's like you have the top of the funnel, so everything that comes and then you start to filter it down.

So we talk about the cylinder approach here, the sales cylinder. So let's open this a little bit more. How, you know this affect the conversion? The conversion, because you know, at the end of the day, to your point, like the goal of getting the leads is completely different from, you know, closing, which we call it conversion also sometimes.

So tell me a little more about this differentiation between a funnel and a cylinder. 

Ari: Right. So most business owners or salespeople or marketing people believe their job is to use a funnel model where their job has put as many leads as you can at the top of the funnel. And work the middle system qualification follow up proposals, and at the end out comes a client that's called high volume low conversion.

Mehmet: Mm-hmm. 

Ari: Which is typically the model for most businesses. 80 20. 80 pipeline, 20% conversion or less. Then so we flip that model and we use what's called a [00:32:00] cylinder, a sail cylinder. It's not wide. It's narrow at the top and narrow all the way down. You only put the top of your ideal client profile and then down that, that little cylinder, there is no follow up, there's no selling, there's no promotion, there's nothing you do to qualify.

'cause you're already pre-qualified, but you only build trust with them and outcomes and a lot of marbles with clients, which now you turn in your business from a low volume, high margin to, sorry, opposite high volume, low, high volume, low conversion to uh, low volume, high conversion. 

Mehmet: It's as. Again, like it, it looks, um, unconventional, but if you think about it, uh, I call anything and you know, like, I like to challenge the status quo.

Like, this is what I try to do in every position I took. And, you know, one time I remember I asked this question like, why we waste our time on something that we know for a fact, like 80 [00:33:00] 20, you just mentioned this. So why I'm wasting my time and energy and efforts on something that. Everyone. Not only me, like everyone agrees with me.

Yeah. And funny enough, like one time I saw, uh, you know, I was having discussion with an inside sales, uh, SDR and he was telling me like, yeah, we have also these leads that comes from Facebook and it was a B2B business. And said, hold on one second, why you waste your time with Facebook leads? Like, 'cause if they are really business people, they shouldn't be hanging on Facebook to get information about us.

He said, yeah, but you know, like the, we have to go with all over them. I said, but you know, you and me, we know that these are like waste of time. Right. Um, so this is why, you know, like I I call it like focusing on what it matters rather than just, you know, like, keep doing this. But I think this is Ari, very important for founders to listen to us because, you know, they have, you know, still, still, they listen to what they [00:34:00] have.

Read or seen or watched. I want you and once for all to tell them where they should put their effort on pipeline growth or conversation. Uh, sorry, conversion depth. Like where really the effort should be. 

Ari: It depends how much volume they need in their business and their price points. If they're in a low volume, high margin model, uh, where maybe a handful of clients a month or 20 a month or 30 a month would be incredible.

Not a thousand. Then they should be focusing only on conversion only I, I can tell you right now, any founder who came to me, I'd ask 'em this question. I'd say, how many leads a month are you getting for your business? They'd say, 50. I'd say Of the 50, how many are you converting? I promise you're gonna say anywhere from five to maybe 20, maybe 23, 4, 20%.

And I'm gonna say, what happened? The other 25% of 30, 30 leads that did not convert. Oh, they weren't [00:35:00] qualified. Oh, we're following up with them. Well, let's take off five of them. Say they're not qualified, some may not be, but the, how about the other 15 in there that you haven't converted? Well, we're following up with them right now.

That's the problem. You're following up with them. You can double your conversion rate by focusing specifically on trust building and not chasing these leads that you. Let them go through your process. 'cause you overeducated them, did a live demo with them, set a proposal with 'em. Now you're chasing 'em in their inbox.

The proposal, the hardest part of this is recognizing that we are the problem, not ai, not systems, not playbooks us because we've been wired to pursue the numbers game. 

Mehmet: Let me ask you this as a follow up question, Ari, because. If we want to think about the next generation of people in sales, right? Uh, and we want to educate them the right way.

[00:36:00] Um, so should we tell them you have to tear down and forget every single sales book that you have read, um, and you have to forget about, you know, these, um, I, I don't like. You know, I don't like the, don't misunderstand me. Well, if 

Ari: they're, if they're happy with their current results, don't change. 

Mehmet: Mm-hmm. No, but I'm talking about new people because you know, the new people that come, the, the, the new generation.

Ari: Yeah. 

Mehmet: Yeah. So, so they're gonna go and check, for example, they're gonna see playbooks, frameworks, and they say, yeah, look like this company, they have applied them. Now what? And really it's not because you are talking to me, it's not a complimentary of, although like, you know, I, I appreciate like you have done 20.

25 years of research on this, and you have written a lot of books, but I mean, I'm seeing it in front of me now. So we want to tell the new generation how they should ditch, you know, all these, you know, things that might not take [00:37:00] make sense and focus on the one thing that they need to learn. What is it in your trust?

Ari: Trust building is all they should do and it does not do any sales training at all. 

Mehmet: So do you think, like, what would be, you know, in, in the future, do you think like sales as a function will be disappearing because of this? Because anyone can do, you know, can build trust. I mean, not anyone of course, but I mean the, the, the skill started to become different, so.

How you see that evolving? How do you see the profession of sales evolving? Um, moving more maybe into like more product, maybe moving towards like a combination with an AI avatar that can help you in doing this. I'm, I'm, I'm just like trying to see, or, uh, no one can, can, can guess, but I'm trying to see like where things are heading for people.

It sales, if 

Ari: you're, if you're selling human to human 

Mehmet: mm-hmm. 

Ari: There's no, [00:38:00] we're not heading anywhere. We're here now. Okay. Nothing gonna change. Humans don't change. AI could change. Tech can change. We are the same. We, we have the same issues. Okay? So you have to master the art of trust building now. And if you're new to the career, you have to master a structure around this because just becoming their friend and relationship building is not trust building.

It's a different definition. It's more of a structured model where they feel comfortable opening up to you and telling you the truth early in the process with them based upon this one call sales structure. So it is something you have to learn is a learnable skill. You get to show up. We're not, I'm not saying you're not trustworthy, I'm not challenging the ethics of the person themselves.

That's not the issue. The issue. They don't know how to communicate and build trust with others at a level where they get the truth quickly. That's the problem. Right 

Mehmet: now, 

Ari: and that has not changed in 25 years [00:39:00] since I've been doing this. Absolutely. Economy, technology, spaceships, doesn't matter. Human to human communication is the open loop here that we have to jump on immediately to win this game.

Mehmet: Maybe I will repeat myself. You know, for me it's, it's just, um. Don't be robotic, right? So people complain about the AI now, but actually we've been robotic all the time because they gave us this sales script and that's. If, if they tell you this, do that. If they act like this, do that. Scripting. 

Ari: Scripting, yeah.

Mehmet: Yeah. So, so, 

Ari: so we're already robots anyways, who are following scripts, right? 

Mehmet: Yeah. And, and you know, someone, you know, I, I, I challenge someone, I said, Hey, like, you know, like, don't complain about these emails certain by ai, because yourself, you've been training people to do [00:40:00] this like all the time. He said, no, but we didn't use ai.

I said, yeah, but AI is exactly what it does. Like you train someone on something and then they go and imitate it, like. Word by word. And there's one thing Ari, I want to ask you here also, um, how much is important? Because you talked about, you know, like I gotta do your, your act now, like doing like this be and showing the empathy how much.

This is really important also to understand the, how would call it, the psychology of the person in front of you. Because, you know, one of the things, um, that I've seen people doing. Wrongly and enough wrongly is when they tell, by the way, I've seen doctors doing this and I, I don't like to deal with such doctors.

So if they know that you have this pain and they told you that, yeah, we have this pain. So try to start to leverage that on to your side. How much is important here, you know, to to mind yourself. Like when they acknowledge that they have [00:41:00] the pain, they have the problem that you solve to make sure that you show kind of empathy also as well.

And not just, you know. Hmm. Okay, now I'm gonna send you to the operation, um, you know, room and, you know, we, we will be ready to, to, to do whatever. So 

Ari: you're, you're talking about viewing this as a technique? Yes. This is not a sales technique. Yes. This is real. You have to care about them. Here's why. Because they are gonna hire you emotionally, not intellectually how they feel about you and your approach is whether they tell you the truth or not.

And when they say to themselves, wow, he gets me. He understands me. And he's not trying to sell anything. He's the one he's reciting emotionally right there, because you're not selling 

Mehmet: right. 

Ari: I like him. I can trust him because he's not playing a game with me and he is not forcing a [00:42:00] social structure on top of a business structure.

Mehmet: And maybe I'm, I'm repeating something you mentioned at the beginning. Buyers are. Of course they were smart all the time, but now like, no, any time before, they are more empowered to, to get your tricks right. So, uh, they would understand it like this. They, they know the 

Ari: game is over. They're, everyone knows the game.

It's over to hello. That's why when you said thank you for your time, they're gonna go, uh, sales call. 

Mehmet: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely Ari. Um, how do you, you know, like have you developed a program where you work with, with, uh, with companies to, to train, uh, their, uh, workforce on this? Like how people get in, in, um, in, in touch with you to get that methodology of trust-based selling?

Ari: Yes, we have our own learning hub and center and, and [00:43:00] community called Selling With Trust. Uh, as, as the name and you, you get, it's an app, you get Intuit for free. If you go to ari galper.com/free, you can join the community, access My Master in the Mindset course. And when you're fill out your, the profile form, there's an option there to select Yes.

I like a co consultation. And then you can talk one of our coaches to help you understand where you're breaking things down. And we can send you our book as well in the mail. So the best thing for anybody listening now I want to learn more about this, is just go to ari galper.com, my name slash free. Uh, join the membership there.

It's free. And take the first course, introduce yourself to the community there. We have a large community that's sharing ideas around this 'cause it's a revolution. I'm calling it the trust revolution. And, and so the only part of this. Then just join and learn. 

Mehmet: Great. So I will make sure, um, I'll put the links in, in the show notes.

Of course. Ari, any final thought you want to share uh, today before we wrap this [00:44:00] up? 

Ari: I would just say that your potential clients are gonna send you any money unless they trust you. Relationship building is not trust building because real relationships take a lot of time. The trust comes at the end, not during.

It's all a game in between. So you need to be comfortable learning how to stop relationship building and focus on trust building to put pressure sales cycle down to short amount of time. It's the only way to win the game in trust recession. 

Mehmet: A hundred percent. Yeah, because, you know, like, allow me to use this, uh, example Ari, if I need to fix my car, I don't, if I need to build the relationship with my mechanics, my car will, will be, will be tough for, for, I, I don't know, God knows how [00:45:00] many weeks or, or, 

Ari: that's a great metaphor.

Mehmet: Yeah. Yeah, because, you know, we, we need to figure out, because again, this is how I come to the mechanics because I did my search, and, you know, like, and he doesn't have to say, Hey, like, you know, I, I know who you are. This is why I'm here. Right. He just 

Ari: diagnoses you. That's all he does. 

Mehmet: Exactly, exactly. This is, was, in my opinion, very eye-opening, uh, Arian, and thank you for sharing this.

Uh, I will personally go and check out also the community because you know, a lot of the ideas that, uh, uh, you share. I, I have them in my mind, you know, but I wasn't like. Courageous enough back in the days to go and tell these things. So, um, thank you for bringing this because really it's important and I think this is where, uh, everyone benefits by building the trust, not the relationship first, because you need business to go move forward.

We need like these startups to, to strive. We need every business to thrive [00:46:00] and we can't just wait. You know, weeks and months and sometimes years to close deals. So we need things to be moving, especially in the age of ai, much faster. So thank you for sharing your experience, Ari, with us today. And as I said, the links will be in the show notes.

Uh, if you're listening on your favorite podcasting app. If you are watching this on YouTube, they will be in the description and this is how I end my episodes. This is for the audience. If you just discovered this podcast by luck, thank you for passing by. I hope you enjoyed if you did, so give me a favor.

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