#590 Mental Health Is Now a Portfolio Risk: Why 72% of Founders Are Struggling? with James Oliver, Jr.

Mehmet: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome back to the episode of the CTO Show with Mehmet today. I'm very pleased joining me, a friend. We've met, I think one and a half years ago in the VC lab cohort, so, and then we, we stayed in touch. I have with me today, James Oliver. He is the CA Lab founder mental health fund founder today.

It's kind of a topic I discussed long time ago and I thought that, you know, James have just published a book. And, you know, when I saw that, you know, we, we just exchanged some, some notes and I thought that it would be a good idea to have James today with me on the show as my get, as my, um, audience know, I don't like to steal much from my.

Guest time. I keep the intros for them. So James, again, welcome to the CTO show. Little bit maybe about you, your background and you know, what brought you to start the Kabila Founder Mental health fund. And [00:01:00] then we are gonna deep dive into the conversation from there. So the floor is yours. 

James: Excellent.

Let's, um, delighted to, to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Good to see you. And thank you everyone out there listening. Um, so I am, you know, I'm a husband to an amazing wife. Co-founder of the World's Cutest Twins. I am the founder of the Kabila Founder Mental Health Fund, which is a nonprofit that pays for mental therapy for US based founders who want it but can't afford it for whatever reason.

Um, and, um, I'm, as you mentioned. I'm a newly published author. This is actually my second book, but my newly published author of a book called, uh, burn Bright, not Out Shattering the Silence Around Mental Health and Tech Startups and the Book's amazing. It's um, not just because of the remarkable stories from really great investors and and founders, but because 90% of the books net profits actually go back to the nonprofit to help solve the problem.

Which that, I think it was, according to [00:02:00] Startup Snapshot, it's a generally accepted stat around, you know, founder mental wellness. It's like 72% of founders are struggling in some capacity with their mental health or wellness. So because we actually take the money from the book to go back to the nonprofit to solve the problem, you know, I, I, I like to argue that it's the most important book about found mental health written to date, because it actually goes back and it helps solve the problem.

Mehmet: Fantastic. Um, James, I like to always, you know, go to find the root cause of anything that usually majority of the cases I have founders with me, like they are building something, they're solving a problem. But for you, I gonna ask, we know the mental health. It's not only for founders, like the world is changing at a very fast pace.

Like 

James: yeah, 

Mehmet: a lot of stress, especially these times we're passing through now, but if you want to go and focus on [00:03:00] entrepreneurs, tech founders, you know, many reasons could, could lead. To the need for having this mental health, um, support. 

James: Yeah. 

Mehmet: From, from, from your experience dealing with a lot of founders, how all this starts, like, like what, what are like the main causes that founders, you know, face?

So they, they, they, they find themself into this position. I would say. 

James: Ah, well, um. So before I answer that, I, I, 'cause I think what I'm about to say might help answer that, at least in terms of me at the top. You said you wanted to know why I'm doing this. Do you want me to go back and tell that story?

Because I think that would both be a segue into, you know, the answer to that question and be connected to that question. So, look, I'm a, I'm a multi-time founder. Um, I back, I gotta go all the way back to like 2011. When I cleaned out the last time my savings, I think it was like [00:04:00] 30, $35,000. I'm not non-technical founder, and I was building an alpha version of a website that'll let you turn your dig digital images into removable photo wallpaper.

Um, and. You know, so while I was working on this, you know, my kid's mother, you know, wanted, wanted to have kids. And so we did IVF and we put into embryos, um, you know, I was grinding on this thing. I was running outta money. And in 2012, um, you know, we put into embryos and, you know, we found out, you know. It was gonna be two babies.

And we're like, we're like, wow. Yay. And I'm like, holy crap. Like here, I'm, I'm like outta money grinding on a startup, trying to make something outta nothing. And I'm living all the way in northeast Wisconsin. Um, and Nina, Wisconsin, which is right next to Appleton, Wisconsin. It's about 30 miles south of Green Bay.

And I'm a thousand miles from friends and family. 'cause I'm from Brooklyn, New York. [00:05:00] And um, so I just like, you know, I need to try to get into an accelerator to have a chance to raise some money. To give this startup a go. And so I got into generator, um, I think it was their second cohort in for the winter, 2013.

And that was a two hour drive each way to Madison, Wisconsin. And the program started in January, was gonna be over. I think demo day was April 3rd and the kids were supposed to be born March 27th. So I'm like, okay, cool. The timing of all this works brilliantly. I'm gonna go to this thing. I'm gonna raise some money.

Yay. Right. It's all looking good. Let's go. I got in. Let's go baby. Right. So then, um, we went for a routine check. Uh, the doctors were noticing some kind of weird thing going with my son's blood flow. 

Mehmet: Mm-hmm. 

James: Uh, so they were like, if, if the blood starts to go backward, we're gonna have to do an emergency C-section.

Right. So, connect to the hospital. I think the [00:06:00] next day they were like, blood's going backward. We have to do an emergency C-section right now. And the kids were born, and this was two days before I was supposed to start the accelerator. Mind you. So that whole little timing thing I told you about, that's out the window now.

Right? Um, so the kids were three months premature. They weighed two pounds each. My son was one pound, 14 ounces, and my daughter was two pounds, three ounces. So now I'm driving back and forth to the NICU for Madison, back and forth to the accelerator, just like really struggling with. The stress of it all, um, because my son really was not doing well.

Like he had to have a blood transfusion. He had to have a hernia operation. Look, I was not doing well. You know, I could fit him in my hand when he was born and. So I used to wake up every morning at like two, three in the morning. I couldn't sleep, like my face was horribly [00:07:00] breaking out. I was stressed out man, and I was crying every day.

Like my Matt, if you would've come up to me and say, Hey, good morning, James. I just sort of started crying, you know, I just was crying every day. So, you know, I managed to get through, um, the accelerator and um, you know, we got to demo day and right before I was going on stage, I remember one of the angel groups I pitched.

I got a call and he said, Hey, this is, you know, this is so and so from so and so Angel group. You know, we're gonna fill your whole round. Back then I was only raising like $250,000. We're gonna fill your whole round. I'm like, what do you mean? He said, we're going to give you $250,000. And I just like dropped to my knees and I just cried.

And I just thank God. 'cause after everything I went through to get to that point, and so my daughter came home from the nicu. After six weeks, my son came home. After 10 weeks, you know, still like tethered to oxygen. And this beeping machine, it was beeping all night long, which I still think to this day is why I have PTSD.

While I don't like being woken up in the middle of the night, always [00:08:00] apologizing to my wife now because she, she wakes me up, go snoring or whatever. I just, I get really angry to be woken up in the middle of the night, I think is from that, um. So, you know, raised a little bit of money and, you know, honestly raised just enough to fail.

But the product was brilliant, right? We got it on a Today show on my own without a, without a publicist. I got it on a Today Show three times. Good Morning, America Money Magazine. Came out to the house, did a wonderful article, phenomenal video. DIY network at Martha Stewart's block, on and on and on. Just tons of PR and you know, just a pro tip for any founders out there chasing pr.

Thinking that's gonna help them like it. It's not like PR is not gonna solve your cashflow problems if you have a customer acquisition problem. So I think it's better spend your time getting your customers to tell 10 their friends about your business versus chasing pr. Um, but anyway, so we ran outta money, had to come back home.

So like I'm, I got young twins. I'm working from home, taking just [00:09:00] nuts, right? So ultimately. You know, the startup was failing for a while, and I just was, because I'm in the 99 percentile of persistent and resilient people on the planet. I just kept going, you know? But you know, today I like to say that just because I'm resilient AF doesn't mean I always want to have to be, because it's extremely exhaust.

Um, so anyway, the startup was failing. Uh, my mental health was failing. Ultimately, the startup failed, you know, the children's mother filed for divorce. So you add that stress of all that on top of what I just told you. And, you know, I simply wasn't doing that great. You know, and, and back then I didn't have.

Um, not just that I didn't have access to mental health resources, because I probably could have found a good therapist, but I didn't even know that that was something to do. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? And in what I know today in, in the startup circles, like there's a stigma around [00:10:00] mental health.

Founders feel like there's a sign of weakness to say, Hey, I'm not doing so great today. They feel like investors will look at them and be like, oh, well. You're not really investible 'cause you're, you know, you're not well or something like that. Um, and. I know at the top I said 72% of founders are having some mental health issues potentially.

And, but I talk to a lot of founders and a hundred percent of the founders I talk to are like kind of going through it right now because of what you alluded to my man at the top, like things are crazy right now. It's just hard being a founder anyway. Like you just hearing no all day long. It's just eight so much that any one human can take.

Right. It's a lot. 

Mehmet: Right, 

James: right. Um, so. Um, I, um, I went through Techstars back in 2022, I think, fall. And, um, when, when I was going through Techstars, we were like, [00:11:00] okay, we need to raise a fund to go along with what I was building. And so that's how I ended up in VC lab. And that's how we met. Yes. And um.

Remember when I was going through VC lab, you remember that slide that they, when they had us put together the deck, the, um, founder value add slide? Remember that slide in the deck? 

Mehmet: Yes. 

James: Yeah. I don't know about you, but for me, that slide always felt like kind of a bit of a throwaway slide. I'm like, 'cause all VCs say that they, I'm gonna add value.

I'm gonna introduce you to other investors in my network and I have relationships with other investors and I'm going to do this and do that, but, Hmm. Okay. Right. But the one thing I did put in that slide was that I was gonna provide access to mental wellness resources for founders because of my, some of my past work that I had in nonprofit, um, helping some founders who were parents and entrepreneurs.

I used to provide free mental therapy and. Um, and these were black [00:12:00] parents who were entrepreneurs and in the black community historically. Mm-hmm. They don't really go to the therapist. But in this community, anytime I drop a Typeform and I'm like, Hey, we got five slot this week for some free mental therapy, virtual mental therapy, that thing would fill up really fast.

And I was hearing all these stories, people coming back say, Hey, this was super helpful. Thank you so much. You know, helped my mindset. It's helped me get my clear thinking so I could support my business the right way and my family. So I was like, okay, this is great. So this is why when I had that found value add slide, I'm like, I'm going to continue to do that.

Right? So fast forward to the end of VC lab. We were at cohort 15, I think, and I was doing really, I was doing really well and I mean, yeah, I was doing a $5 million fund. You, I'm not getting all the thesis and all that 'cause I'm not trying to violate, you know, SEC general solicitation rooms and all that kind of stuff.

But I was doing great. I was on track for first close. Um. Had a lot of, you know, they have us get those hard commitments over there, meaning assign LOI, which doesn't mean anybody's gonna do anything, it's [00:13:00] non-binding, but it's a much better, a higher chance that they will versus, Hey, yeah, I'm gonna put a hundred thousand dollars into your fund when you're ready to go, just call me when you're ready.

Versus, Hey, I just signed this piece of paper, so I'm going to give you a hundred thousand dollars. It's probably has a higher, substantially higher conversion rate. Um, which is why they make you do that. So I had a bunch of those things. But then a new US administration came into power. And, you know, look, I, I was first time fund manager, a black first time fund manager, which comes with its own additional set of challenges that I won't get into here.

But there's, it's more challenges versus just being a first time fund manager. Um, and it's like I hit a wall. I like literally hit a wall, man, and then I started feeling. Like my brains were scrambling and because I told you I had some mental health, you know, struggles before, in retrospect, at the time I didn't know.

I was like functionally depressed, you know? But in [00:14:00] retrospect, I know that I was, and, and so it's like, you know, and in my book that we talked about a little bit, so Brad Feld. Is a co-founder of Techstars. Brad's a legendary investor. Uh, he's a partner at Foundry out of, uh, Boulder, Colorado, and, you know, mm-hmm.

Brad's a good friend and you know, Brad is the one who, you know, gave me $25,000 from his Anchor point Foundation to start. That could be the found Venture Health fund. Um, he also wrote a chapter in my book. And you know, he's a pioneer. He's one of the first people at that level. Back in 20 13, 20 14, he was talking about his mental health challenges with OCD and depression, and in his chapter in the book, which is remarkable, he talks about.

He's like, he describes, you know, these mental health challenges as demons. He's like, yeah, like I know that demon when it shows up again. Right? So for me, [00:15:00] I'm like, my brains are being scrambled. Like I know that demon and, and so Nisha Dedos, who's actually in Dubai now, wrote a chapter in the book and she talked about, and I'm paraphrasing here, that everybody wants to be successful, but how do you show up when you get to success?

Right. And she posits that, you know, you want to be whole and healthy and just, well, and 'cause that's important to me too, because, you know, the two most important things for me, or two of the most important things are for me are to be a good husband and to be a good dad to my twins. And I can't do that if I'm not well mentally.

So I put a pin. And raising Kabi Avengers, and I said, you know what, I'm gonna go start this nonprofit. So that's how I ended up getting to the Kabila Founder Mental Health Fund. Um, because of my own personal experience with my mental health [00:16:00] challenges, I know the pain and challenges of all that, and I don't want other founders to have to go through that.

So once I got that done, then I was talking with, um, a guy named Django who had this startup called Focus on Words, which is an AI platform book to write books, and it's great. I, I thought my next book was gonna be about how to help overlook founders, um, increase their social capital, because I see a lot of them making a lot of mistakes when they're trying to, you know, raise money, net land, big customers, et cetera.

But at the end of my call with Jengo was an intro call, 'cause he just helped. I don't know if you know Darryl f Freighter out in Tulsa. Do you know Darryl Freighter? 

Mehmet: No, 

James: uh, he's a really, really interesting guy. Um, but Darrell just, he just published a book called For Darrell called Micro Obedience, macro Impact.

It's about like faith-based entrepreneurship type stuff. So it's really 

Mehmet: interesting. I need to check it. 

James: Yeah. So, [00:17:00] um, I was talking with, uh, Darrell, actually, he's probably been a good person to have on your podcast. He's, he's a really interesting guy. If you, if you take a look at his stuff, you want an introduction, like, let me know.

I'll make an introduction, see if you can to talk to you. Okay. Um, so at the end of the call, 'cause I was like, ah. He's like, oh, you wanna publish a book? I'm like, yeah, I got this idea. But by the end of the call, we started talking about mental health, founder mental health, and he was like, I'm really passionate about this.

I struggle with my mental health. And he was like, I was like, well, why don't we do a book together, collaborate and do a book about found mental health? And he was like, perfect. And I'll just like, after covering the cost, I'll just donate all the money, 90% of the money back to the nonprofit. Like, oh, it's amazing.

Let's do that. So the way his platform works is he do an interview and he'll take that interview and turn it into content from a book. He has these AI agents that go out and do that. Nice. So we had, yeah, so we had, um, so David Cohen, Techstars, CEO, and co-founder wrote the Forward, 

Mehmet: yeah, 

James: me, Brad, I see that.

Brad. Brad, yeah. I mentioned Brad wrote a great chapter. Will [00:18:00] Allen Will's a retired NFL player. He won a Super Bowl ring with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. He was a defensive back with the Steelers for some time. Um, he's now a VC in Pittsburgh and it was really interesting reading his chapter, talking about.

The things that he learned from his time playing football and how he translates that into coaching founders and with emphasis on mental wellness. So it's a really fa fascinating chapter and we had, uh, just so many good founders, man, Mitch Waner, who was the co-founder of and CMO of Digital Ocean, which iPod.

Mm-hmm. Mitch wrote a great chapter in the book. Um, you know, Shayla Hauser wrote a chapter about how. He, his startup was supposed to IPO on the Nasdaq and it was ready to go. And then the whole thing, when the market crashed, the whole thing fell apart. He ended up selling, they sold the business for like $800 million and he walked away with almost nothing.

And then, yeah. And then he became addicted to, you know, [00:19:00] alcohol and just remarkable. And then we got another guy, um, Nick Marriage. He had a startup that he sold to Link Tree. Mm-hmm. And after, you know, that's the holy grail. Oh, exiting. Successfully. Yay. Right. Okay. But. He's writing in his chapter how he was burnt out after he had a successful exit.

I'm like, he was experiencing burnout after he had a successful exit. I was like, wait, what? So anyway, just that and then, you know, I don't know if you know, um, Jeff, uh, oh, geez, I can't believe, I can't believe Jeff Johnston from Brighton. Um, his, his is the first chapter in the book and it just. Uh, it will make your jaw hit the floor.

The amount of the things that have happened to him personally and his family, like his son dying, um, from overdose and then his wife subsequently dying from alcohol abuse and he had to overcome it. Just, uh, like that first chapter would like, knock your socks off man. But just some great founders, great stories.[00:20:00] 

In the book. And you know, the point of the book is not to be, uh, I feel like I'm talking a lot here, man. You wanna ask a question or you want me to just keep going? 

Mehmet: I have a lot, I have a lot of follow up, man. 

James: Keep 

Mehmet: going. 

James: Oh, keep going. All right. Um, so the point of the book is not to be prescriptive. We're not telling people what to do.

Mehmet: It's not a playbook. 

James: No, it's not. Like, if I wanted to do that, I would've interviewed some neuroscientists. What's the science behind? Keeping your mind right, right. Getting your thoughts right and manifesting things you want. I would've been focused on that. Like, I mean, I suppose that would be interesting in its own right, but it's not interesting in the way this book is interesting because, you know, the founders and investors won't be able to see themselves and uh, do you know Mike Ma?

You probably know Mike Ma. 

Mehmet: Yeah, of course. Yeah, 

James: yeah. Mike Ma. So Mike wrote a phenomenal chapter in the book. We're all like, so good. Um. So good. Uh, Mike's an investor over at, um, side Cut Ventures. Mike has a great podcast alone together. Have you ever listed this podcast? 

Mehmet: [00:21:00] Uh, I didn't check it. 

James: You should, man.

You would find or see yourself in that podcast. It's so good. He talks to Soul gps. 

Mehmet: Wow. 

James: Good. Yeah, that's you, right? 

Mehmet: Ah, ish. Ish. Yeah, 

James: ish. Alright, well you would, you would resonate. That podcast would resonate to you. Very deep. Resonate with you very deeply. I actually did a recording episode, um, on this podcast.

I'm not sure what it's gonna drop, which by the way, you know, may is Mental Health Awareness Month. So I think that we're doing this now. If you dropped it in May, that would be perfectly timed. 

Mehmet: It got, by the way, this will drop, you know, my, my audience know how transparent I am. So we're recording on the 1st of April.

Probably this will be airing in the second or third week of April. 

James: Okay, 

Mehmet: perfect. 

James: Wells, 

Mehmet: it's a pre mental health awareness 

James: month. 

Mehmet: It's, it's good to do a, uh, a pre-awareness, maybe two weeks or, that's 

James: it, baby. It's pre You're getting ahead of the curve here. 

Mehmet: That's right. But I gotta, I gotta stop you one moment here.

Please, James. Because, because. You know, you, you dropped a lot of [00:22:00] valuable, and I like this, and this is why I didn't stop you. Right. And this, no, this, you know, I'll, I'll be frank with you, I've done. I think I ca I, I stopped counting, so I know the count for the podcast, if you check it is like 500 something, but I always minus a hundred because when I started, I was doing solo episodes and then it became all interviews.

So the best episodes always I have are the ones who are like, I'll call them, uh, unscripted. Right. And, and this is why I, I didn't stop you because you're telling me stories. But not stories, like fantasy stories. These are real stories. 

James: Yeah. 

Mehmet: And the most important thing for me from, you know, like you went through all like your own story and you know, the stories of, of people who co co-authored the, the, the book with you.

The thing for me, which, you know, this is why I was thinking I was trying to, to to digest what you are saying is. Like, [00:23:00] and of course, let, let's discuss this. So the first thing, because you mentioned about, for example, the exit and people, how they see the exit. Oh, like he's a successful, you know, startup exit.

He did like two, three exits or so, whatever. 

James: Yeah. 

Mehmet: And people don't know, like. The nitty gritty, which is like hidden. We don't see that, right? So mm-hmm. There's a lot of stress going on. The other thing, which you mentioned is about how it's important for entrepreneurs. Look, and this is why I like about the way you wrote the book, because that's why I told you it's not a playbook, because it's not like mm-hmm.

You know, like, so you, you read, 

James: have you read it? 

Mehmet: I, I, I've, I've done couple on, on, uh, on Kendall. Yeah. Couple of chapters. Okay. 

James: Perfect. Perfect. 

Mehmet: Um. So, so the other thing is, you know, the way how, uh, you presented it, you know, the, the way how founders are seen also themselves, and we see a lot of books where you see like, just do this, do this, do not do [00:24:00] this.

Uh. Take that. Don't take that. You know, which is okay. I, I'm not saying it's, it's bad. 

James: Yeah. 

Mehmet: But I mean, and, and you know, like if you go and ask everyone who is currently sitting and thinking of starting something and you tell them, Hey, like, look like this needs a lot of, I would, you know, if I want to summarize, I would say resilience, right?

You need a lot of resilience. They'll tell you, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm strong enough. But really, dude, you don't know until you start. To be in it. Right? 

James: You have no idea. 

Mehmet: And I, I gotta highlight something, and I'm not biased, and this is something for everyone to know, is that there's a mental health. I mean, let's call it like stress.

I'll not call, I would not let it reach to that level yet of, you know, so, so founders. And I'm happy 'cause I'm just reading a book now. 

James: It It's here. Yeah. 

Mehmet: It's called Founders versus Investors. So I'm still reading it. I didn't finish it yet. But the [00:25:00] whole idea is like two authors. One is a vc, the other is she's a multi-time founder now she's an engine investor as well.

So the idea is, you know, um. I, I didn't know this before the VC lab. Little bit. I didn't know the struggle that a VC has to do to raise money because the VC themselves, they need to do the same fundraising story. You're like 

James: the startup founder raising money. It's exactly the same. 

Mehmet: Yeah. And the, the hardest part about it, like if I take a, if I, if I take two pitch tags, one from a startup, another one for a fund 

James: mm-hmm.

Mehmet: And I'm showing it to someone, I'm pretty sure, you know. If there is a chance for someone writing a check, of course all the time, it'll be higher for the startup than the fund. And the reason is at least, at least [00:26:00] even if they are in a pre-seed phase, I mean they, they still maybe have only an idea no MVP, but at at least they have something that they can show.

Right. And they can show themselves now when you mm-hmm. When you go and try to be a vc. Especially a new 

James: fund manager. 

Mehmet: Yeah. Ask James and ask me about it. Mm-hmm. It's, it's, it's crazy difficult and it's, you know, you, you start doubt yourself like they tell you. Yeah. You, you, it's like. You are a sales guy.

They tell the founders the same story. You need to be a sales guy. Uh, I, I was a sales, I I'm still a sales guy somehow. Right? So I do GTM for, for startups. Um, and I, I, CTS 

James: can't sell. Come on, man. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Sort of. 

Mehmet: Yeah. So look, look like everything is hard. Everything is hard. Like, but you know, one, one thing, James, that always I think about it is the [00:27:00] denial, right?

So you mentioned something important about like, founders. They, they have this fear of being seen as weak. They have the fear of being not able to raise the next fund. 

James: Mm-hmm. 

Mehmet: I gonna give an advice. I, I want to hear your opinion. It's a great movie, and by the way, it's, it's the Apple birthday. I'm a very big fan of Steve Jobs.

Mm-hmm. Um, go, go watch, you know, the movie. And of course it's surreal. I read the 

James: what the Steve Jobs movie. 

Mehmet: Yes. 

James: Oh, well that's good. I read the book. The book was amazing. 

Mehmet: The wake are amazing and you know, like people who used to see, okay, I will not use, you know, I don't not use bad words, but let's say they used to see Steve Jobs as the arrogant, as the Oh yeah, as the jerk.

Right. Mm-hmm. But if you go and really ask people and people who, who, who, it's not like they heard from someone. They, they, they, they lived with him. They, they walk with him. Mm-hmm. [00:28:00] He used to go and cry. Right. He's, he's, he's, he's the founder of, of the biggest, you know, computer companies ever in, in his time.

And still I think it is. Um, so, so it's, it's, it's not shame that you feel broken. I mean, this. This feeling of feeling weak. I don't know how we can tell people it's actually not weakness. It's actually, you become stronger when you share your true feelings when you are authentic. Yeah. And when? When? When.

When. You also show your vulnerabilities, of course, that 

James: that's the word, vulnerability. I was gonna, I didn't wanna interrupt you, but vulnerability 

Mehmet: Yeah. 

James: Is the 

Mehmet: new 

James: currency. 

Mehmet: But let, let me ask you, James, let me ask you something and, and you can like, follow up on, on what, what I said. Now, some people might, might say, yeah, I get you.

I know. Mm-hmm. I need to share it. Mm-hmm. I need to. 

James: Yeah. 

Mehmet: But some people will take, uh, will, will, [00:29:00] will take that as an opportunity to, to utilize, you know, what I have shared. They will use it against me later. What you tell people, 

James: uh, you know, this is an interesting question. I don't have. An exact answer. Uh, like you can't just be going, showing up and throwing up all your personal business.

Like that's not a good strategy for anybody. Um. I don't, you know, I think you need to find your tribe, right? Get a good therapist, um, someone you can open up to and, and talk to. Um, get around some other like-minded individuals who might be startup founders too, or if you're a new vc, the, you know, new VC managers.

And you could have real, authentic, vulnerable conversations about what you're experiencing, but you don't want to be, you know, on LinkedIn crying. About your problems, right? Because everybody has problems and [00:30:00] no one cares, right? I mean, unfortunately, like everybody, and this is the thing, like everybody you meet is dealing with some serious challenges in their lives, so.

I think with that mindset. I'm digressing a little bit here. I have really bad A DHD and I do that, so I apologize, but I'll bring it back. No, 

Mehmet: it 

James: is, I'll try to, I'll try to see if I can remember. But you know, like knowing that everybody you meet is dealing with something significant. Like it have some grace, right?

Have grace for other people. Like give them the benefit of the doubt. Don't be so hard, so judgemental. Don't be an asshole as you're starting to say before. Um, but I, I, I can't really answer that question. That's my answer to that question. I don't, yeah. Vulnerability is great, but be selective about who you're vulnerable with.

Um, so one of through lines in the book is that all these founders think they're alone. You're not alone. I, I think, I think, I think, um, David said that in his chapter. Brad said in his chapter, um, uh, [00:31:00] Lauren Goodell, that was the title of her chapter. You Are Not Alone. Over and over and over. Everybody's like, you're not alone.

You're not alone. If you need help, Brad's like, if you need help, reach out. Like he means that he means that, right? I don't know if, I don't if you know, um, well, he pr Mark Feinberg is a good friend of mine. Mark was having like some suicidal ideation or something back in the day. Didn't know Brad reached out to Brad and Brad was like super helpful to him and they're friends over the years because of it.

Like he, he says it, he means it. And the other thing is. In, in the book, the other through line is it's okay to ask for help. You know, it's not a weakness, it's actually strength to have the self-awareness to know that you need help. And going back to something else you said about the book not being prescriptive, like everybody in the book, in their chapter, talk about what they do.

To manage their mental health and wellness. Right. Not everybody goes to a therapist. You, you know, look, what can we do so that you don't have to go to a therapist so they'll, so I don't know if you know Calm the Calm app. 

Mehmet: Yep. 

James: [00:32:00] So David Co, um, was kind enough to donate, I think it was like a hundred free premium calm apps, subscriptions for three months to me, which I've been giving away the founders.

And I love that because I'm looking for ways, how can I go upstream before somebody needs to go see a therapist? How can I help them manage their mental health and wellness, um, so that they don't have to see a therapist? Or how can I use this as a tool in between therapy appointments? But in the, in the book, like some people rely on their faith.

Some people exercise, some people meditate. Some people do yoga, right? Some people ride their bikes, some people journal, some people do this, this, this, this, and this. Look, my thing is, is do whatever works for you, man. Right. James? 

Mehmet: James, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you something, and I know like, uh, if someone, you know, is listening or watching this, they might, uh, hammer me later in, in, in some parts of the world.

Um, 

James: okay. I'm, I'm, hold on. [00:33:00] I'm sitting in, I'm buckling up now. Whatcha about to say? 

Mehmet: Yeah, because, because even I wrote about it in a different aspect that related to mental health. But I think again, it, it resonates here. Uh, I'm not biased. Uh, I'm just, I consider myself a man who read a lot, you know, tried as much as possible to understand different.

Um, cultures, ecosystems, whatever you want to call it. I mean mm-hmm. When I say cultures, I mean, you know, like it's not, it's not like the culture of, of the, you know, country itself or like, it's not in that sense, like the business culture, like the way people do, you know, their, their normal day-to-day lives and Okay.

So on now in the us 

James: Okay. 

Mehmet: Right. It's very normal. Right. Maybe I met James one time. Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's very normal. I pick up the phone, Hey, hey James, you remember like we met in this event and we talked [00:34:00] about this. Hey, like, I have this thing. I'm not sure if you can introduce me to someone who might help, or I'm not sure if you are able to guide me how to do this, and I'm sure.

James would tell me, Hey, yeah, MeMed. Yeah, sure. Good to hear from you back. Let me check. I'll get back to you and you will get back to me. Right. Unfortunately, unfortunately this doesn't exist in some ecosystems. Right. And at least 

James: ecosystems or cultures or what are you saying? Whatcha talking about 

Mehmet: not 

James: beating 

Mehmet: around 

James: the bush?

Man, just say it. 

Mehmet: I, I, I, I, I'm not hiding behind the bushes because, you know, if I say culture, this might, people, they think that people here are rude. Right. I, people are not rude, but it's, it's something, 

James: some people are rude. 

Mehmet: Some people are rude everywhere. All, all, all, all over the place. We can find good 

James: people.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. 

Mehmet: But in, in some. Yeah. Let's call it culture. Yeah. Let's, let's not hide it. Like, but I mean, this culture is, it's not related, believe me. Because like the [00:35:00] US has a lot of people from all over the place, from all over the world. Right. And they bring their own cultures there, right? 

James: That's right.

Mehmet: Yeah. But in some, in some places, you know, if you try to reach someone, they ignore you, they ghost you. Okay. If they are nice enough, they'll say, Hmm, yeah, okay, we'll see. And they never come back to you. Mm-hmm. So the problem is, I believe, I'm not saying it's easy in the US than than other parts of the, of the world.

Mm-hmm. But for people who are in this kind of, I would say culture, yeah. Let's call it culture. 

James: Okay. 

Mehmet: This becomes so hard because they cannot go and ask. Right? So. If they, and you talked about the tribe, so how important is bonding with, with same minded people become here in this situation, if you don't have, you know, like even if I have done some business with [00:36:00] you, like it was a transaction, it wasn't like really a real human to human relationship.

So how much, you know, the, the tribe, you know, become. More important here? I would say, 

James: uh, I think the tribe's important. Look, I can't speak to other cultures. Um, I mean, I've lived, I lived abroad. I've lived in Barcelona for three months. I finished my MBA in Barcelona. I mean, I've traveled some, um, but I haven't lived extensively in other cultures.

Um 

Mehmet: mm-hmm. 

James: But, and that was a while ago, so I don't know what, you know, Barcelona is like these days. Um. I suspect that just purely from a human nature standpoint, it's just me speculating here that connecting with like-minded people is going to be important probably no matter where you live. Do you agree with that or no?

I, 

Mehmet: um, [00:37:00] it depends. I would say, 

James: mm, why? How so please tell me how

Mehmet: you know. People act as they see, you know, when, when you are new to a place mm-hmm. You see what people do there and you try to do the same thing as them. 

James: Mm-hmm. 

Mehmet: And if something you find that people are not doing, you tend to become same as them. You don't do what they do. The breakthrough comes when someone is.

Courageous enough is strong enough to say, Hey, you know what? I gotta do this. What? So whatever. I don't care what people will think about me. They think I'm crazy. They think I'm mm-hmm this, they think I'm that. Mm-hmm. And they go and do it because I don't want to be harsh in the words, but people act like.

You know, get that to be part of the herd, right? This is, 

James: well, yeah. That's most people, but, so, but okay. So I feel like you're tiptoeing around this a little bit and that's fine. Uh, but at the top of the, your [00:38:00] comments, you said, I practicalize No, you are, but like, I don't really understand what you're talking about.

So I would, I would, I would be great if you could just say what you're thinking. 'cause I don't really understand like the, the context clues that you're trying to leave. Um, and you also said that some people would really get upset. By what you're saying, but so far for me, and this may be just cultural, I haven't heard you say anything that's offensive.

So like, oh yeah. Which part of which, which part of what you're saying or what you haven't said, do you think would be so offensive to people, so egregious that they would be up in arms by what you're saying. Like which part? 

Mehmet: That Yeah, I don't want to, I, of course I don't want to generalize James, but I mean, I would talk about the main region where I'm based now, right?

So 

James: where, what region. 

Mehmet: In Min region. I'm in Dubai. I'm based in Dubai, as you know. 

James: Okay. 

Mehmet: Okay. Um, right, so, so we, we see these, you should look at 

James: Nisha deas, she's in Dubai. 

Mehmet: So we see the, um, you know, these networking events. We see all these things. And then, you know, but once you try to reach [00:39:00] after a networking event, or like, let's say you met someone and you try to follow up later.

Yeah. And you try to, to establish this, of course, like start as transaction. Hey dude, how can I help you? How can I add something to you? Right? So this is how you, you, you start to build the trust, but. It's like, it's my own experience, which I faced. Mm-hmm. And this is why I stopped going to these kinds of gatherings, at least for the past money or so.

Mm-hmm. Because for two years, 20 23, 20 24, part of 2025, I got this excitement. Yeah. You talk a lot of things there. Yeah. Right. And then, and it's not related like either fundraising or anything else, like it's just, you know, seeking business help. Right. Simple, right. Mm-hmm. 

James: Mm-hmm. 

Mehmet: Um, so. And when you go out of these gatherings, and even if you try to meet this guy 

James: mm-hmm.

Mehmet: Outside, the next time you see a different face over there, so it's like mm-hmm. You have masks on people. Again, I'm not generalizing here, I'm not, I think that's 

James: [00:40:00] true here too in the US I don't. That 

Mehmet: makes sense 

James: to me. I think it's true 

Mehmet: though. I dunno. I 

James: think 

Mehmet: it's true. Yeah. But, but, but, but you know, like still from my podcast experience, you know, um, if, if I reach out to any of my podcast guests.

Now, especially the ones who are in the US and I asked them a favor, believe it or not. There's no one time I didn't get an answer. Even if they told me, Hey me. Like, yeah, great, what you are trying to do? Or let's say, wow, I'm excited about what you're doing, but hey dude, like I can't help. This is, for me is good, right?

James: Yeah. 

Mehmet: A quick note 

James: is always good. Right? 

Mehmet: Exactly. Rather than reaching to someone and never coming back to me. Right. Yeah. Like, hey, like 

James: are you chasing him forever for a nose? 

Mehmet: Like, yeah. But anyway, just say 

James: now. 

Mehmet: Yeah. And what I'm trying to relate this, this is also affect founders, um, I would say belief [00:41:00] and you know this.

And, and when they, they see like they have a lot of rejections, this affect also their mental health. What I'm trying to get it.

Again, that it's not only for founders, it's also for fund managers or 

James: mm-hmm. 

Mehmet: Emerging fund managers. Yes. They're gonna hit the same wall also as well. So the whole thing, the whole idea, I'm trying to say James, like, it's, it's a blessing to have, you know, this tribe. It's a blessing to establish, you know, these relationships.

Even at the beginning. You know, you, you don't just go out and try to. Uh, get something out of it. You build for the long term and really you try to establish it through friendships. So, I I, I'm kind of sharing my own experience because, you know, I struggled a lot, especially, you know, 2024 was a little bit tough.[00:42:00] 

Um, 'cause I was, I was getting out of this reality, a guy who was like, in, in just the corporate world, you know, you have this, you know, everything set up, everything is, and then you try to go out by yourself and figure out how things can work. 

James: Yeah. 

Mehmet: And then, you know, at, at the beginning people come to you and say, Hey, like, yeah, like, let's do things.

And then you figure out that. I'm not generalized again, but 90% of that was 

James: Yeah, it's, it's rough, right? It's not real. Yeah, no, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. 

Mehmet: That's, 

James: that's normal. 

Mehmet: But, but this affect the mental health, right? This 

James: Yeah, of 

Mehmet: course it 

James: does. But you know, that's why you have to have a lot of productive activity.

You have have to have a lot of plates spinning, you know, a lot of balls in the air because you know, some of those balls will never come down. But you have to have enough balls in the air so that if those other balls don't come down, you simply don't care because some of them will come down and you get to keep moving forward.

So you have to have a lot of productive activity, I think, so that you're not counting on any one thing to to happen for you. 'cause if it doesn't happen, you're like, I don't care. I got this other stuff [00:43:00] going on over here. I don't care. 

Mehmet: James, I'm gonna ask you something very quick. Also. Now with the age of AI and you know, this competition becoming fierce and uh, sometime we are waking up in the mornings seeing like one of the new features of this AI company Yeah.

Gonna kill this startup. 

James: Yeah. 

Mehmet: From what you are monitoring or watching, like how this is also affecting on, you know, the, the, the, the founders, anything. 

James: Oh man, you know, this is a good question and I'll be honest. Like I was talking to my wife about this a lot the last couple days and you know, I have some significant personal things that I'm dealing with and I am working to get those resolved.

And I told her, I said, once I could get these things resolved and I'm on the path, I feel like I'm on the path to do that. Um, I will free up. A lot of mental [00:44:00] capacity to dig into some of these things like, you know, like I haven't gotten into the whole vibe coding thing yet because I just haven't had the bandwidth to do it, but I'm excited.

I mean, I use Claude. I used to use, um, open AI Chat, GPT, but I, I dropped that because of the politics of the co-founder said, I'm not here to support that. And so I canceled that and I spun up. Claude. Actually, I like Claude, although just like, uh, chat, GPT Claude makes stuff up too. Thing, make stuff up. Um, so I, I really can't speak to, um, your question specifically.

Uh, but I do, I'm gonna be picking my head up here shortly to start digging into a lot more of that stuff, and I'm excited to do it. 

Mehmet: Great. Now. Um, James, if someone, you know, want to, to, to reach out and, uh, you know, seek some help, how, how they can do that. 

James: So like you could visit Kabila mental [00:45:00] health.com, like everything that we're doing.

Is is right there. Um, you know, we, if you wanna be a be a donor pay for mental therapy sessions for founders, great. You could go there. If you wanna get on a wait list to get some mental therapy support from us, you can, you can do that. Um, 

Mehmet: do you support internationally? Just sorry to, to 

James: interrupt. So we, right now, um, right now we're working with.

Mostly US based founders, but I will say like, so we use better help on our platform. Mm-hmm. So, um, if somebody is international and if better help is in their country, like we actually did somebody in Canada, um, recently. Okay. Right now we're primarily focused on the US but you know, as we raise more money, I think we'll probably be opening an A up and say, Hey look, you know, if you're in a country, if you wanna do virtual menal therapy support and better help see your country.

Yeah. Why not? It's all the same to me. I don't care. 

Mehmet: Amazing. And of course, you know, traditional question, the book is available on 

James: Amazon, a hundred percent. Print and, um, digital. The, the reviews are phenomenal. You can read the [00:46:00] views for yourself. I mean, you've been digging into it, it sounds like it. You like it.

So the book's great. Uh, 

Mehmet: the book, the book is, is amazing. I didn't finish it yet, but, uh, you know, I had the chance to, to just, uh, go with the, the intro and few chapters. Yeah. Uh, I advised everyone to get their, uh, their copy, whether digital or the print version on Amazon. 

James: And if I may, if I may. So I know you said you have a lot of investors who listen to this book.

I have a lot of talks coming up in May for Mental Health Awareness month. You know, we're gonna be doing a talk with the National Venture Capital Association, which is the lobbying army in the United States for venture capital, their members, R VVC firms, VC funds, um, and we need to normalize these conversations for investors.

And my vision is that. Um, every investor when they make an investment in a founder, like invest in the mental wellness of the founders and then give them a copy of the book that should be, here's a check, here's the wire, here's a copy of this book. Right? Right. You [00:47:00] know, investing in the mental wellness of your founders is portfolio.

It's risk mitigation it. Portfolio strategy. 

Mehmet: Absolutely. Absolutely 

James: right. 

Mehmet: Um, you know, like this is, uh, we discussed it, uh, before and, uh, you know, again, look, so I don't misspell the name or anything. We, we, we had a lot of mental health related, uh, um, you know, episodes on, on, on the show. Mm-hmm. But, you know.

The last one, I think it was like three or four months ago. So the thing is, we were discussing, uh, how we can try to get even like accelerators and I'm not sure if you have, I'm sure you've maybe talked to David about it, but I mean, if, if you have them. The accelerators as [00:48:00] well, you know, have this part of maybe their, I don't know, their curriculum, whatever that is.

Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. So, so that would, that would be good. Yeah. Because, you know, like, uh, you, you don't want the founders to feel that they are alone and they are not able to, um. To, to, to, to do it. Right. So recently I discussed this with, with Corey Hart, for example. This is, was about mental health in, in startups.

Mm-hmm. We discuss it like with, with multiple, you know, episodes I have, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm glad that I was able to at least bring awareness in my, you know, humble, uh, ways of, of doing things, um, regarding that. So, um, because look, guys, like, you know, I, I will not repeat what much of, uh. What James has mentioned.

But it's important. Don't ignore it and don't deny it. Um, you need this, really, you need to take care of yourself [00:49:00] regarding this thousand 

James: percent. 

Mehmet: Don't, don't ignore it. And thanks to and Cillo James, and to all the work you've done. So because of people like you, you know, there's also a, a, a way for founders to.

Get back to, to, to, to, to normal life and, and focus on, on building things that matter. So I'm really grateful that you are here with me today. Any final thing you want to share before we, we, we wrap it up? 

James: Um, you know, mental health is health. You're not alone and you know it's okay to get help if you need it.

Mehmet: Great. That's, that's great advice. Um, again, James, thank you very, very much for being here with me today. It was a, um, a great discussion. I, I like the stories. I can re highlight this again and I gotta remind, um, the audience that the link for the Kaila Founder Mental Health Fund is in the show notes. You can find the website there.

Yeah, the book also both versions on Amazon. If you want to [00:50:00] directly click, you'll find also the link in the show notes. If you're watching on YouTube, you'll find that in description. And this how I end my episode. This is for the audience if you just discovered us by luck. Thank you for passing by. I hope you enjoyed.

Give me a small favor, and this is not. For the saying of becoming viral or anything. As you see, we are trying to raise awareness on different topics. It's sometimes tech, sometimes something related to the founder's mental health. Sometimes it's related to many, many things that a founder, a tech executive, anyone might be benefiting from this.

So give me a favor. Share it with as many people as you can. And if you are one of the people who keep coming again and again to listen and seek like what's in you on the CTO show. Thank you very much because of you since last year. And this is what keeps the show alive and it's a nonprofit show everyone knows by now.

Um. When I see that the podcast is ranking in the top 200 Apple Podcast [00:51:00] chart in any country, and we keep changing the countries, this makes me continue the mission because I see there is a hope that we are reaching like new countries, new people, new cultures, and this is what, you know, make me happy. And I'm also make me grateful for people who spend the time to listen or watch the podcast.

And as I say, always stay tuned for a new episode very soon. Thank you. Bye-bye.