#615 Gamification Is Not a Feature. It Is Consumer Behavior | Matt Edelman

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Mehmet: Hello, and welcome back to a new episode of The CTO Show with Mehmet. Today, I'm very pleased, joining me, Matt Edelman. He's the CEO of Super League, which is a company specialized in immersive digital experiences. Of course, I will let Matt discuss more about, you know, his background, journey, and about a little bit the company.

But before doing this, I want to apologize for the audience for my voice today. I have kind of flu, but still I wanted to record this because as you know, we changed recently the frequency of the podcast, so we're doing one episode per week moving forward after I started a, a new job. So now we're gonna have like weekly episodes once per week and this is where things gonna move forward.

So without further ado, again, Matt, thank you very much for joining me. As I was, you know, asking, maybe you can give us a little bit more about you and the company and then we can start the discussion from there, so the floor is yours. 

Matt: Thank you so much, Mehmet, [00:01:00] and congratulations on your new job. I look forward to hearing more about that.

Um- 

Mehmet: Thank 

Matt: you ... so, uh, I have been at the, uh, my career really has been at the intersection of, um, uh, emerging tech, uh, uh, content and media. Uh, I've really spent, you know, uh, all of my time sort of, um, at that intersection and, uh, I learned early on, uh, when I was actually in the film and television business, uh, the impact that technology has on content, uh, creation and, uh, I would say content consumption and distribution.

Uh, and that lesson stuck with me, um, over now, you know, more than a couple of decades. Um, and I am running, uh, Super League, Super League Enterprise. Uh, we are a small NASDAQ company, uh, based in Santa Monica, which is where I live. Um, although I'm from New York, uh, [00:02:00] and I still, uh, get a healthy dose of New York, uh, through, uh, multiple business trips per year.

Um, I, I can tell you just briefly, Super League helps brands and advertisers run marketing campaigns and advertising campaigns, um, to reach people who play video games and we do that, as you pointed out, inside immersive gaming platforms like Roblox and Fortnite and Minecraft. But we also do that by curating inventory and creative formats across multiple other gaming channels and platforms.

Mehmet: Great. Thank you again, Matt, for being here with me today. You know, w- the way I like to approach any topic is to go to, to the challenges or how the status quo is currently, and then try to see, you know, how you're helping in solving these challenges. So we know, and you mentioned couple of, of names, uh, in your introduction, Matt, so gaming [00:03:00] has become one of the largest digital ecosystems in the world.

Like, it's been for years, I know, but we're seeing a huge, you know, growth in, in, in that space. What are you noticing that enterprise leaders still getting wrong about the role of, you know, the gaming as a business and customer engagement platform? 

Matt: It's interesting the way you ask the question. Um, I don't know if, uh, enterprise customers or effectively brand marketers are getting anything fully wrong.

I think they're still learning. Um, I can, I can maybe put some context around that. Sure. Most CMOs are, uh, in Generation X, my generation, and, and I know that because the average age of the incoming CEO of a US company at least, is about 56 years old, and CMOs are usually within [00:04:00] 7 to 10 years of the age of the CEO.

That means that most CMOs didn't grow up gaming, and they didn't grow up multiplayer gaming. When I was young, even though I did play games, if I wanted to play with my friends, I had to go to their house, and that wasn't the case for the next generation, Millennials, and certainly not the generations behind Millennials, Gen X and now Gen Alpha There is a learning process.

Uh, um, y- you, you kind of buy what you know. It's kind of like in the entertainment business where I started my career, writers often write what they know. It's how you have sort of innate, um, uh, authentic confidence in what you're doing. You certainly get information, but you have a comfort zone, and that comfort zone only expands through education.

So I, I think it's, again, not that anybody's getting anything wrong, it's [00:05:00] about learning why the amount of time spent, which is extraordinary to your point, the amount of attentiveness while players are in these games and spending that time, um, why those are so impactful when it comes to seeking marketing outcomes.

Mehmet: Right. Now, at Super League, Matt, you talk about playable media instead of digital advertising, right? So- 

Matt: Okay ... what, 

Mehmet: what are the main changes, you know, that for me as a customer participating in a brand experience versus me just watching an ad? Like, I know like for example, in the US you have, you know, the Super Bowl where, you know, companies they compete to put their ads on or maybe if I go to New York City and I see, you know, my brand on, uh, in the Times Square, right on, on, uh, on the displays there.

So how that is different, uh, if you can like little bit elaborate on that. [00:06:00] 

Matt: It's really thinking about the difference between, uh, being active and being passive. So when you are watching an ad and you are passively consuming content, your brain is operating a certain way. When you are experiencing an ad and you can take an action that is connected to that ad, your brain acts differently.

The wiring that you're using is unique. You are making a choice to be engaged, not just through passive consumption, but through a purposeful move to connect to the content experience. And, and that is extraordinarily different. Um, it means that you were motivated by something. It means that you were inspired to do something that the ad and the message, uh, compelled you to do.

The only time that might happen when [00:07:00] you are watching an ad is if you have a second device, which by the way, is a point of distraction, and usually one of the reasons that people don't see or pay as much attention to a linear ad. But is if you have that second device and you have the opportunity to visit a website that you might be seeing in an ad on a television, or if you see a QR code that you choose to scan through your camera.

Uh, but that happens much less frequently than if you are in a playable or interactive ad experience and you are taking steps inside that space, and the space has a branded presence that you are connecting to. 

Mehmet: Great. Now, you talked about CMOs a little bit, Matt For every initiative that, in general, but let's, let's focus on the CMOs and marketing people here.

So when a new channel [00:08:00] comes, right, and promises engagement, so they would ask for kind of KPIs. So what kind of KPIs, like, you showcase to these leaders, right? To, to, to show them, like, if you put the ad in one of the games you just mentioned, you know, some business outcomes can come rather than just impressions.

How do we measure this? 

Matt: That's a great question. I, I think I'll back up and just say that we think of marketing as, and wh- and its association with gaming and gaming media as really living either inside of a game, adjacent to a game, or connected to content about gaming. All of those are important and effectively enable a, a comprehensive approach to the gaming ecosystem and the 3.5 billion people in the world, and more than 200 million people in the US [00:09:00] who play video games.

By the way, it's worth noting there are more people in the US under the age of 45, 8 out of 10, who play video games than there are- Mm-hmm ... sports fans in the US under the age of 45, 7 out of 10. So the audience is extraordinary, and thinking of it as an audience that can be reached through all three of those components is very important.

The same way that when a brand thinks of reaching audiences in sports, they will think about working with a league or a team and marketing through, uh, content that is sports oriented on YouTube, or running, to your point earlier, ads inside of a Super Bowl. It's a 360 degree strategy. The answer to your question about measurement and what brands are looking for really depends, to some degree, on which of those three, um, uh, segments of, of your plan you're activating.

So when you're in game, you are really focused on [00:10:00] time spent, attention, and action, and all of that is measurable in a 3D space. We can see, um, an individual player, whether it is through, um, reading what their controller is, is inspiring them to do, or, or seeing what their avatar is actually doing. You can see what they're looking at, you know how long they're spending doing things, you know what they're clicking on, you know where they're moving to, and all of that, um, creates signal around your brand's success in that space.

When you are, um, in, uh, what we call, um, adjacent to gaming, you are effectively showing up in inventory that is in the middle of, of a game experience. So for example, in a mobile game, when you're going from level one to level two, you might see an ad We, um, recommend making that ad either playable or rewarded, both of which require the user to take action in the [00:11:00] ad or give the user the opportunity to take action in an ad rather than a passive viewing experience.

And in those moments, we are able to capture everything that any digital ad captures, right? We are in an open mobile world. You have all of your attribution, all of your tags, all of your targeting, um, all of the attribution that you otherwise expect in digital advertising. And then when you are, um, activating, uh, around content associated with gaming, most of that occurs with influencers and creators.

And so now you are activating within the creator economy, and that has become a tried and true space that is growing remarkably, uh, in importance. Um, and the measurement there is very standard now in terms of what you expect, uh, when you activate with a creator, and it depends to some degree on the brand or product, uh, that you're [00:12:00] asking that creator to support.

Mehmet: Right. Now, we, we got the benefits, we got how it's done, Matt. Now the question that people would ask, I, I believe, you know, this is as, as a logical question probably, "Okay, I'm with you, Matt. I want to start experimenting or I want to deploy this new customer acquisition, uh, channel in, in my business. How much I should allocate to that, like versus the other traditional, let's say, social media search or traditional digital advertising?"

What have you seen, I would say ultimate scenario of distribution between all the channels? 

Matt: You know, that's a great question. I, uh, I will tell you what the industry looks like today. Um, roughly speaking, uh, there is about $170 billion spent, uh, across [00:13:00] social and, uh, TV, and TV includes streaming, and there is about $10 billion spent, um, against gaming.

Uh, we see that as a massive gap and a terrific opportunity for Super League, and an important area for brands and marketers to pay attention to. Those numbers are US numbers, by the way, which is primarily- Yeah ... where, where Super League focuses. Um, contrasting that spending gap, the amount of time that younger generations spend between social, TV, and gaming is approximately equal.

Approximately. And so the gap in spending does not at all reflect the amount of time spent in each of these broadly defined spaces. Um, our view is a brand today, if they wanna reach people certainly under the age of 35, and unquestionably [00:14:00] under the age of 25, gaming is essential. It is an integral part of more than 90% of those, um, demographics', uh, time spent.

It's how they choose with a portion of every day to consume content. And so if you're not there, you are missing out on a material component of time that these individuals are dedicating to media and content consumption where your brand and your product and your message has a cha- has a chance to connect with them.

Mehmet: Right. Now, we cannot skip nowadays any conversation without talking about the AI, Matt, so-- And AI is making content creation faster and cheaper, right? But of course, there's this debate about creativity. So in your opinion, how the gen AI is changing the economics of building in [00:15:00] specific immersive brand experiences and where, um, you know, the human creativity is still a big differentiation, in your opinion?

Matt: You know, that's-- I, I'd love to say that I'm gonna have an insight that hasn't, uh, been shared before, but I think, you know, maybe a little bit of a, a nuance because we're talking about gaming and not as much attention is paid to the- Sure ... impact of AI. Um, the largest portion of the, the gaming ecosystem today is user-generated content in gaming, and that's represented primarily by Roblox, but also Fortnite and Minecraft, and we expect there to be a user-generated content, um, uh, component to, uh, the next, uh, Grand Theft Auto that is coming out, we have been all told w- uh- Yes

in November. Um, and, and, and one of the ways [00:16:00] that sometimes people don't, um, you know, contextualize that is if-- Roblox, as an example, is kind of like YouTube. The community creates all of the content. The difference is that with YouTube, they don't c- provide any content creation tools because the tools are relatively straightforward.

You can create content with your phone. Roblox and Fortnite as examples, and Minecraft, they provide the creation tools, and they are adding AI into those tools. That means that the entire world can learn how to create a video game aided w- by AI, and, and there's a, you know, common, uh, phrase now, um, called, uh, one-shotting a game, which is effectively using AI, and that could be inside Roblox or it can be outside of Roblox and you're trying to create a, a PC game or a mobile game.

Um, but [00:17:00] you're effectively creating a game with a prompt. And that will only accelerate. So just the same way that we are already being flooded and will continue to be flooded with more and more content creation that is linear content Memes, videos. We will see an overwhelming increase in the number of user-generated content or creator, um, uh, developed games aided by AI.

What won't happen, at least for a little while, um, is optimization of these games without human oversight, and that optimization comes in two forms. It comes in understanding how the players experience your game, and there is an art and a science to that understanding. You're looking at data, and of course, it's highly data-driven, but you have to choose how to interpret the data with a bit [00:18:00] of art in order to optimize for the user experience.

And the other, of course, is creative. Games, just like entertainment, uh, traditional entertainment, they, they catch on because of some, um, some way that they capture an individual's, uh, um, enthusiasm and emotion, and that comes from a creative presentation and a creative positioning that is still highly dependent upon human taste.

Mehmet: Right. Matt, you mentioned something, um, about, like, how it's, you know, the Gen Zs mainly, that they like to express themselves in different ways, right? I, I have a Gen Z at home and, and I know, like, she, she's 17. Like, so they talk a lot about different things, but one of the main, uh, and I think you, you mentioned this in another, um, another interview, about the expression through avatars, right?

Like, and, and creating kind of digital [00:19:00] identity. Now, when we have this kind of digital avatar, like digital reality, whatever you want to call it, from a brand perspective, what does it mean for me? Like, because now I have kind of two personas maybe, one in real life and one in the whatever game, it's Roblox, Fortnite, Minecraft, you know, like, whatever that is, maybe another game that you mentioned about GTA as well.

So how do I keep the trust and loyalty in parallel in, you know, the real realm and inside this digital, uh, space also as well? 

Matt: Uh, I'm, I'm glad you asked that. You know, it is an important consideration i-in immersive spaces. Digital identity is as or more important to members of Gen Z and Gen Alpha, um, uh, as physical identity for more than half of each generation, [00:20:00] and it has a lot to do with, uh, several factors.

One, um, digital identity and physical identity are, uh, different in how they can sort of be, um, uh, controlled, right? You don't always have as much control in the physical world of, of how you present yourself as you do in a digital environment where the only, um, inhibiting factor might be the amount of money that you can spend.

Um, the other, uh, you know, reality is that, um, when you play video games, um, and you are expressing yourself through an avatar, um, there is a science that, that, um, demonstrates that you are your most authentic self. Um, and I sometimes try to, uh, draw a, a bit of a parallel there, um, to, uh, the Halloween holiday.

Um, on Halloween, if you, uh, have ever dressed up in a way where nobody knows who you are, [00:21:00] you actually behave a bit differently. You lose some of your inhibitions, and if you imagine that's what it feels like naturally and authentically without even realizing it when you are playing a video game, then you understand the-- as a, as a marketer, the opportunity that you have.

If you can connect with somebody when they are their most authentic self and they choose to put, um, a product on their avatar, uh, a wearable item or, or something that's an accessory, um, and they invest either money or the time then that they are expressing their identity in the world where they spend, um, so many hours, if they are choosing to align themselves with your brand, that is a very significant statement about wanting your brand to be part of how they present themselves.

Um, and you know, just like there's a lot of, um, uh, acknowledgement that, uh, the, uh, video [00:22:00] game formerly called FIFA, now called EA FC, is responsible for young people becoming fans of the world's game, um- That is what happens in video games. It's generally younger generations who are outfitting their avatars multiple, um, uh, times a day, uh, with different items that they are, um, then effectively wearing or carrying as a billboard that represents who they are.

And if your brand is part of that at a young age, you are capturing, um, a level of, of emotional commitment that is very hard to accomplish in the physical world. 

Mehmet: Right. Matt, if we want to think little bit beyond gaming, right? And as I was mentioning to you at, at, uh, before we start the recording, some of the people who listen to the show or they, they watch us on YouTube, they, they are building technology products maybe, and maybe they have never tried to think about building, let's say, an experience in Roblox [00:23:00] or Fortnite.

So what kind of principles from gaming they can try to embed in their own product? Like maybe community, maybe participation, like w- what kind of things you advise them to start to think about early on so they can also increase the engagements, uh, with, from their customers into their products? 

Matt: I, I think the most important, um, realization is that today's Generation Z and Generation Alpha, and even young millennials, are effectively gamified consumers at large.

And what I mean by that is they have been, uh, conditioned, uh, to either willingly or unwillingly experience most of the content and information that they access through digital devices through gamification. And, and that's not just in video games. If you are using dating apps, there [00:24:00] are gamification elements.

If you are using sports betting apps, if you're using prediction markets, if you are learning a language on Duolingo, if you are using a fitness app and trying to, um, maintain your streak, if you are in Discord and trying to earn badges, all of this is gamification, and it has come to effectively dominate digital, uh, behavior and consumption for just...

Again, I use this a lot, for just about everybody under the age of 35. And, and by the way, it's what, uh, younger generations enjoy. They appreciate the feeling of progression, the feeling of reward, the feeling of status, being part of a leaderboard, connecting to a community, and having a way to celebrate their, uh, membership in that community.

Um, it is ingrained in younger generations because from the moment that they started to experience, uh, socialization [00:25:00] and content consumption and information exchange, they were, um, exposed to these gamification elements. And so I think ignoring the reality that, that, um, people, um, of younger generations are at large all gamified consumers, um, is, you know, a, a, a, a very, um, uh, risky, um, you know, endeavor.

You have to embrace gamification, um, in some form in how you connect, uh, to your target end user. 

Mehmet: Right. Now, people will remember this maybe. 20 years ago, we used to say every company has to have a website. And then, you know, when the social media came, we start saying like every company, they have to have a social media presence, whatever that is, depending on who are their target audience.

Are we seeing the same thing for immersive platforms, uh, Matt? Like where we say if you're not doing this, you [00:26:00] will not be, uh, relevant in couple of years. Is that something you, you're seeing? And what kind of industry specifically they need to f- you know, put all their focus on creating, uh, their presence over there?

Matt: You know, that's another really smart question, Mehmet. I, I think the, you know, there was a time a few years ago when, um, brands were flooding Roblox with branded experiences, and, uh, there were a lot of reasons for that, including, um, a lot of encouragement from, from Roblox that a brand having their own experience was an interesting way to connect to the growing community on Roblox.

And what I think is different, um, compared to social media or digital video, uh, or, or websites, is a, a, a game has to support the fact that it's a game. An experience has to [00:27:00] support the desire that, that you're trying to tap into, which is all of the elements I mentioned earlier. Repeat play, um, being connected to people for a purpose inside of an experience, and that purpose helps you progress through the experience.

It takes you on an adventure. It helps you build your own story. Um, you know, every action you take in a video game affects the content experience that you have, so it is a very purposeful, um, place, uh, to spend your time and experience content. It is difficult for brands to create games. It is difficult for companies like Super League to create games for brands that can compete with the games that are created by native creators on these platforms, native developers on Roblox.

And so I don't think that it makes sense necessarily for every brand, um, or even for the majority of brands to have their own always-on [00:28:00] immersive space that is attempting to be popular alongside all of the native, uh, developed games that exist. It's not that much different from YouTube. You know, as, as much as Nike publishes, Nike as an example, publishes videos on YouTube, the viewership of those, of those videos pales in comparison to the viewership of MrBeast's videos.

Brands just can't compete with that native appeal and the native talent on these platforms. However- Having a presence is critical. I'll just mention one thing that Super League has done recently. We partnered with Regal Cinema, and we built a Roblox experience for Regal that is only meant to attract attention at a particular point in time, and it is connected to what's important on Regal's marketing calendar.

And so they launched a promotion for National Popcorn Day. We ran a [00:29:00] program inside Roblox where, uh, players could go into a Regal theater, play a number of mini-games, and effectively earn a free coupon, uh, for popcorn, um, at the physical theater, and we redeemed initially 30,000 coupons in a, you know, within a day.

We then expanded the program because Regal, um, at another point in time, a couple of months later, wanted to run a promotion with Universal Pictures to support the Minions movie, and this time we gave away coupons for users to get a free Icee at the theater, and the response has been tremendous. It, it speaks to something that we've become very good at, which is looking at these platforms as a place where you can have a serialized presence where the community starts to expect to hear from you and to get value from you and to, um, welcome you as a member of their ecosystem for a specific reason at a [00:30:00] specific time, and they embrace that, compared to a brand trying to present themselves as an always-on member of the community where they just aren't going to be as appealing as the native creators.

Mehmet: Right. Matt, if we want to think about You know, I'm trying to combine actually two questions in one. So, um, Gen Alpha, Gen Z, they are becoming tomorrow's workforce. They are becoming tomorrow's founders. They're gonna become the buyers as well. Um, if we think beyond marketing, do you envision that, you know, these immersive technologies in games might be used beyond marketing to something like customer support, like training, like commerce, maybe something else?

Like, where do you see this going, uh, down the road? 

Matt: Well, I, I think you can look at it from two angles. You can look at it from the game creator side of things, and again, [00:31:00] the, the number and volume of creators is so much more prolific because of these user-generated content platforms like Roblox, Fortnite, and Minecraft.

Um, and then you also look at it from the player perspective. So from the creator perspective, building games, with or without AI, takes a level of talent and, um, creativity and, um, imagination and, uh, and also, um, attention to data, uh, that is a bit different from what is required to create other forms of content.

And, and understanding sort of the full spectrum of what it means to, um, be creative, what it means to, um, operate a team of people, and what it means to observe data, and then what it means to act on data and combine that with your creativity, those are some incredible skills to be able to bring into the, into the workforce, [00:32:00] um, as you, as you mature and you get older in life.

And, and, and I think, you know, um, being a, a creator in general prepares you very well to, um, to work, uh, professionally even if you're not a professional creator. Um, because it gives you, um, the, uh, the understanding of effectively what it takes to almost like be a CEO. You're the CEO of your game, and you have to think of all of the components that make the game work.

Sometimes you're even thinking about budgeting your time or some money that you may be willing to spend, um, out of your own bank account. And, and so now you're learning about, you know, managing finances. Um, at the same time, um, for people who play video games, um, as long as, you know, you as a player, um, do not, uh, sort of fall into the trap of your entire social existence being through screens, which is a challenge for young people that has been, you know, written about, um, [00:33:00] endlessly, and, and there are many thought leaders and, um, you know, uh, um, politicians and, and, uh, others who are trying to help ensure that, you know, kids in general are, you know, participating in the real world and, and prioritizing real-world relationships.

But if you, if you set that aside for a moment and you think about, um, somebody who's playing a video game, uh, the majority of video games right now in the fastest areas of growth are all social. And platforms like Discord that, um, t- Right. Yeah ... that people use to communicate while they're playing are highly social.

And so what you end up happen-- what you end up experiencing as a player is you end up, um, understanding teamwork, cooperation, um, uh, other social, you know, skills that, um, uh, are transmit- transmittable or transmutable to, you know, uh, life outside of, of games. And you also develop, um, sort of an approach to, um, [00:34:00] as I mentioned earlier, progression and achievement, and that can be motivating.

And, you know, entering the workforce now, you know, younger and younger people are, um, expressing a desire to achieve and to-- and they are highly motivated, and they want to, you know, try to move forward in the world, um, at younger and younger ages. Some of that's positive, some of it's negative, but I think understanding, um, that that is an opportunity for you and, and knowing what that feels like from being a gamer, um, gives you a bit of an advantage.

Mehmet: Great. Now Matt, as we're coming almost close to the end, maybe final piece of advice for people who are listening to us today and they want to prepare their organization for the next generation of digital engagement. What, what would, what you would tell them? And of course, where people can get in touch and find out more.

Matt: Thank you. Look, I, I, I think it, it goes to, to what I, you know, mentioned before. Um, incentives, um, drive outcomes. [00:35:00] And, uh, and you know, there's a, a very, you know, uh, famous, um, and remarkably accomplished, um, investor, uh, partnered with, um, uh, you know, one of the, the most famous in the world. But Charlie Munger, um, you know, effectively said that.

Not effectively, he did say that. He said, you know, "Show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome." Um- Right ... and it, it really has always stuck with me. If you want to compel a, a customer to do something, what is the incentive? And the incentive doesn't have to be monetary. Um, the incentive can be emotional.

The incentive can be, um, around efficiency. The incentive can, you know, uh, come from a number of different places. But you have to know what you are incentivizing your customer to do, um, differently, better, more successfully, um, uh, what you're [00:36:00] tapping into. Um, and, and it has an enormous amount to do with people's psychology, and maybe that's, you know, the last, uh, point I'll make here.

Um, the psychology, um, uh, of, of an individual is much more profound in terms of, um, determining what they will respond to than their interests. So- I guess what I would say is, um, think of the difference between somebody who is altruistic and somebody who's competitive.

If you understand that about them, you're gonna be able to connect with them in a much more meaningful way. And so, uh, think about that psychology, um, uh, angle and psychological traits as much as you're thinking about behavioral and lifestyle interests. Um, in terms of getting in touch with me, LinkedIn is probably the easiest, Matt Edelman, uh, from Super League.

Uh, and I would certainly love to, uh, hear from your listeners. 

Mehmet: Great. [00:37:00] Matt, I really thank you a lot for this, I would say, very interesting and very promising, uh, new way of creating these experiences as, uh, you know, the world is changing, and I think we need to tackle a lot, you know, what is, you know, important for the new generation as well.

And you just mentioned couple of times about the alphas and the Gen Zs, and I think, you know, uh, the things are changing, and we need to prepare ourself. Like, I'm, I'm ex-millennials, you know, something in between, I would say. So, uh, a- and you know, we've seen these changes beforehand and, you know, creating these experiences and creating, you know, these immersive experiences is something worth to, to talk about, and thank you for sharing that today, Matt.

Uh, I am sure the listeners, you know, will, will benefit a lot from this and learn a lot from what you have shared. Uh, the links will be provided in the show notes, so people [00:38:00] who are listening, you know, you'll find the links in your, uh, favorite podcasting app in the, uh, show notes. If you are watching this on YouTube, you can find them in description.

And this is how I end my episodes. This is for the audience. If you just discovered this podcast by luck, thank you for passing by. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did so, give me a favor, subscribe and share it with your friends and colleagues. And if you are one of the fans who keep coming again and again, thank you very much.

Thank you for keeping the podcast ranking in the top 200 podcast Apple Podcast charts in different countries every time we change, you know, location and region. So I'm happy that we are able to get a great content for people who are looking for what's new, latest trend in technology. We talk a lot today, we saw-- you saw we're discussing, like, about digital experience, immersive, uh, uh, experiences, and so on.

We're talking a lot about AI, we're talking about cybersecurity, we talk about startups, and also, like, anything related to startups. So we're gonna keep doing this also as well. As I say [00:39:00] always, stay tuned for a new episode very soon. Thank you. Bye-bye.