#158 Unlocking Success in Software Testing with Jay Aigner: From Employee to CEO

0:00 From the heart of Dubai where tomorrow is being built today to the world, welcome to the CTO show with limit here. We redefined technology and reimagine possibilities with mehmed delve into the riveting Realms of AI cybersecurity and digital technology experience the thrilling highs and lows of startups. Immerse yourself in the spirit of Entrepreneurship and witnessed the future of business. Innovation, being written in real time. Now, without further Ado, let's tune in and explore the future. Hello, and welcome to a new episode of the city of show with Matt.

0:48 Matt, my name is Matt and as you do in each episode, I cover different topics from emerging Technologies, startups, entrepreneurship, and I host with me CEOs, subject matter experts, entrepreneurs and startup Founders. And today, I'm very pleased to have with me today. JayJay you are the CEO of jda Q&A which is software that stinks company with leave the floor to you to introduce yourself and your company and what you are up to Yes, what is yours? Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. So we do software testing my background over the last 15-20 years is been primarily in a quality assurance space. All we do is make automate performance, and security testing for custom software development companies for says companies and website agencies.

1:37 So, we've got three teams, you've got a US based team, an offshore team in the Philippines and the Nearshore team co-located in. Co-op, we've got around 60 people right now and we just, we kind of are the queue a solution for our most the time. So that's that's pretty much what we got going on. Oh good, that's it. Great to hear Jay. Now, the first question I want to ask you like, did you start entrepreneurship at an early age? Like what drove you towards this path? I asked the same question a lot on my show, and I think it's a very good. Question. I'm yes.

2:17 My mother was and still is an entrepreneur businesses that I got to kind of see how that works growing up. She written ever tizen agency and I started doing websites for her. I was probably 13 12, 13 years old, you know making decent money for 12 or 13 year old different doing websites. Did you know some little side businesses here and there and then kind of went in the 925 world for quite a while but I'm built This this business as a side hustle to start and you know, kind of grew it into International testing powerhouses I'd like to say over the years. So yeah, it did start early took a little bit of a break but then got back to it.

2:58 That's cool. I was not lucky to do this. Jump from nine to five. Honestly, I did very recently but you've made the leap you know from the 925 to Consulting and the running your own business. What was the most motivated aspect of this challenge? This is first and at the same time, what were the challenges that you faced when you that this leak? I will say, as anybody, that knows me, I'm pretty straightforward money. I mean, all money is time and time is money. So having the ability to support a family of five kids have a lovely wife was a nurse and she was an overnight nurse. And my main motivation was to get her out of a job at the time.

3:48 So she could Emma stay home with the kids and I have to work some a job that she didn't really. It was very it was draining her. Not to tell the biggest challenges honestly, I try to do you risk it from the start. I didn't always suggest the same thing with everybody else consult consult, consult my mean? That's the start is to do Consulting where, you know, you're doing something your spare time or after hours or can fit in, you know, and your lunch break or whatever it is. I try to do Consulting, use the experience that you whatever industry that is to kind of set the nation for your business. And that really do you risk the entire operation for me? I'm kind of built it up over time and it just The main challenges were kind of fitting it in the day-to-day. I mean, I was working multiple jobs kind of at the same time at some point where I do my nine-to-five stuff during my brakes and run around stairwell and take a call for one client. And at the end of the day, I'd hop on and do stuff for other clients in different time zones.

4:49 It's a Grind to start to managing that your family, you know, certainly were some of the challenges, Just entrepreneurial business side of things. I didn't have an MBA and I still don't, mmm, so figuring out to run a business. Certainly was a challenge. I used up work, which also helped you risk the process, which was not much more of a transactional forms, but it's very easy to start a business and do the things you have to do, but the real Pit came when I cry, frankly, when you Korean War at, but I noticed that they cut off the entire country of Russia, which didn't impact us directly. But it made me kind of think.

5:31 Like maybe I should have another stream of Business than just coming from work Works giving into the real world in an upward guy says very transactional. Okay. Can you do too? And I'm like, yes we can and then they change the money and that that's interaction. We step out of that world. You have to figure out who's Michael, what message, who am I talking to kind of figure again, how to run a business, a little more traditional than I was doing before. So, lots of different challenges depending on which pays the business, you know, we're talking about. So was this, This. The main II mean source for getting the idea of 3D a Q&A like you spotted something on up work and then you said, okay I think this deserves to to have its own business.

6:20 Is this how you get it? Yeah, like I mentioned when I was telling my wife, that I applied for was different things that try to diminish as years ago, this is probably 10 or 15 years ago and I just happened to stumble upon and Elance dock which eventually got bought by up work, you know. So now one for ya and picked up some contracting jobs, doing consulting and cute, and I had a problem saying, no to money and try to figure out how do I keep Taking on contracts, the same amount of hours in a day and do that was to bring in some people that I had worked with previously, my old boss had one point hired as a consultant to just Max and one of my oldest tenured employees. Did he came from your first job that I've worked in Q&A where you know, estimate said, hey would you be willing to pick up 15 extra?

7:17 20 hours a week? It was down for that, and that was kind of the start was how it all started. Is this? Starting to hand off that work to somebody else to do. That's that's great. By the way, for the for the audience who are not old enough like me. So there was he lands and that was all desk and then these two companies decided to merge. I think, maybe it's now 10 years, almost, if I'm not mistaken the same. Yeah, so decided to do the up work, which became, you know, the main outs, a source for freelance work. Of course, there are other, I'm not affiliated by the way without work, but Lee. It's one of the best I'm saying this for anyone who's interested to go the path that they have chosen.

8:04 They are the platform because there are a couple of others and also I tried all of them on the both sides client side and freelance side and I think up work is the most esteemed one I can say now Jay something I want to ask you like of course and you mention something which I like like you said I don't have an MBA and I believe you don't need an MBA to start a business. But While some aspects to grow the business, and the most critical one is to be a sales guy. So how did you tackle that to become a sales guide? For example, for me, like, also, I was a taking guy. I was like, introvert, how did you deal with that? So yeah, it took me a while to realize that I am a sales guy.

8:50 It was a very I remember sitting somewhere was sitting with the went out to dinner, you know, it's closed on and some ladies that next to just throw, what are you doing? Are you the sales guy? I was, I'm not this guy like I don't like that stuff. Amber, what I do and it took me a long time to realize nobody's going to sell a product for you. You have To be comfortable, being uncomfortable, which is, I think is just a general lesson for everything in life.

9:30 You just have to view. Never going to grow if you're constantly comfortable. But once I kind of realized, you know, I am the sales and this is the guy who needs to get out there and promote myself from about the company. Think it was really just a realization one and I don't really exactly remember what the moment was, but one day I did eventually realized that, My role in this company is to bring in new business, it's to Foster existing business, and it's to protect the resources of and make them feel comfortable, and support the best of it I can. And kind of realizing it was three things about what my role actually was, because I did everything for longest time, but once I realized what was really good at, you know, it made it easier, it made today, I'm a sales. I'm a Biz Dev guy, that's all I do. I'm and I To make sure my clients are happy and that my people who work for me are happy and you know everything is a lot smoother.

10:31 So I think it's just taking that second to realize like yes it's scary and people are going to tell you now and it's going to be sad and it's going to suck for a while here and there to here. No. But you know the main message. Is that nobody's going to sell your product or services for you especially early on like you have to, you have to do it if you want to go anyone To be a real business. Typically, the, under the owner, have a Stuka pull himself up by the bootstraps and say, it's time to go out and bang on some doors and make some calls and do some things to make some sales. So that was kind of my transition into realizing what my role was as a Salesman for the company. Yeah, I want to add something to what you said Jay, and maybe I mentioned this on the show couple of times, but people, you know, they assume that saith is Is a bad word, but it's not actually, and I mentioned this because someone told me this long time back, if you recommend a restaurant, if you recommend a brand, if you are a geeky Guy and, um, surely recommend a phone, a laptop a headset to your friend, you are a sales guy because this is what it's all about that. You need you to tell about what the value that bring to to the other person.

11:50 So yeah, like I would say I was asking the same Spot. Until I figured out ten years back off. Actually, I can talk easily to people. I can convince them about the technology of talk about technology sales here as well. And it's like, yeah, you just need to go out and try it. Of course, as you said, Jay first couple of times you might get some rejections as they say. Yeah. But think about like a date, you don't get maybe the first time so you need to keep trying keep hustling and you will get that now. Well, I want to ask you like, you are in the software testing business, right? So how do you are seeing, you know, the trends, I would say going in the industry.

12:35 I mean, in the testing itself because now people start also to talk about Ai and maybe I can do this for me, you know, like what are you seeing in from the trans perspective, Jake. It's definitely a companies. As specific like Enterprise level has been pushing Automation and pushing kind of that. The Enterprise level human free thing for a long time because they want to cook, cause they want to reduce drag on the manual, testing Team. All these different things. I get this one of my favorite lines which is you know, fully automated test Set up for a fully AI tennis is big like everybody thinks they've seen just a blurry picture of it off in the woods like nobody's it doesn't exist. It's not real like dude, you're always going to need humans somewhere in the process when you're putting software in your customers hands, let's just run my business, that's the way. I've always kind of thought still do we use. Chad gbt to augment our services today. Absolutely.

13:45 Do we use it stuff to help. Expedite. Some of the tests are absolutely do we automation? Yes, yes, yes. I don't know that there's been a giant shift from a testing perspective because you still need the human touch has placated by any AI tool ever seen yet because you know, context is important with the eye. But it's also super important with testing. That's the whole point of what you're doing. When you're testing the software is the context. Does it work here for these users? And these users based on this data and these different things. And these conditions and yes, I'm sure years down the road. Maybe we'll get closer to.

14:29 But, you know, the automation tools themselves, obviously, are getting more and more advanced in their smarter, and that sort of Grab different elements on the screen, or do different types of comparison to test different things. You know, we partner with a lot of the kind of leading automation platforms for testing in the industry which has been great for us because we kind of gets along with some of these great companies doing that Tech work, just ahead of the curve. Um, but you know, virtualized browsers and stuff where instead of just kind of standard record and Playback, you can be instrumented version of a browser. I'm that can emulate any sort of situation or you can enter any type of browser, type any type of connection, type any, any any scenario you want to kind of start the tests on those virtualize. Browser platforms are kind of leading the way I think, with the next wave of what Q is going to be. So with its mobile or desktop or whatever it is, if you can, emulate the end users environment, and ecosystem that are going to actually be using your form and do that at scale. You'll be much better off when your product hits, hit your customers hands because you've been able to test in as many different scenarios and, and ecosystems as possible. So, very long-winded answer to your question, but hopefully I had some of your phone.

15:47 No, that's completely fine. And you know, I cannot then add anything more because you covered all the J. Now the thing you mentioned like you, you work with like, I mean, different type of clients. But are you seeing like, any Signs of slowdowns. When it comes to a specific out, say vertical, within the software industry, like we know, like for example, SAS is very fast. Everyone is going that route. Like, how are you seeing? You know, the industry going here. Like, Less Mobile, more web. What's the status?

16:28 I would say. I don't know that it's really made any big changes. I think, you know, certainly the comes in waves, you know, everybody wanted to do Native mobile apps, for longest time, and then they realize, wait a minute. Like, the things you can do, if you build a web-based version of an application, instead of making a native, right? You can, you can have the same version for Android iOS and all the different platforms if you do a browser-based mobile application as opposed to building a native one. I don't know that there's any friends in that sense that we've seen. I mean, there's, there's always going to be a push for Native apps because pushes people's Brands.

17:14 They won't want their application on your phone. So we've seen a lot of those desktop. Is interesting for us specifically because I have a physical you know software application on your desktop certainly has gone down over time just because of the SAS model, like you mentioned like SAS is King but having having the expertise and will test those things has gone back up because there's not as many people out there who have the skill set to test it. And I will also say that from a VR Spective a lot of applications are desktop.

17:54 Applications are .exe. You know things that you run on your desktop to interface with these these VR applications we test, they're not there. So there is kind of a Resurgence in a sense of testing and development when it comes to desktop applications because a lot of the arv, our stuff is way easier to just drive through that. Your standard kind of executable desktop application, is it To trying to do it on a mobile app or trying to be as so certainly, you know, some ups and downs and it comes in cycles and waves but SAS is king and you know, there's a million more of them every day and for good reason, I mean there's elbow the Deployable they're accessible. So yeah, I think I think there's a kind of the general trends that we say.

18:41 Yeah, it's not surprising but the good point on and good observation. I would say on the desktop part because of the arv our stuff and I think As you said like I was in discussion with some Founders here in Dubai that they are into the arv, our space and they mentioned something similar. So it's good that you also had the same observation. Now, you mentioned that the beginning of our discussion. J bit about, you know, you had to hire and you know, try to find with people. So from a Founder perspective or a business owner perspective, how do you You first attract, good talents and how do you retain them?

19:24 Because I know this is a huge problem nowadays for a lot of startups, a lot of businesses, High attrition rate issues. People doesn't stay much. So, how do you deal with Talent acquisition and retaining? Acquisition has been. I mean frankly we started with up work to begin with. He found a lot of people throughout work because it's a Marketplace for people who kind of do what we do as we grew up and got bigger word of mouth actually replace that because we you know, we do a specific type of thing.

20:07 We we are contractors by Nature what kind of parachute in and do our thing and and, you know, establish ourselves. Moves pretty quickly as somebody's go-to resource for Q&A. So having somebody who has a contractor background, they typically may know other people that are in the contractors is to have worked with people who were in a company. Yeah, we have, for example, in the Philippines were one of our, our big offshore team is all those people. Previously worked at big companies that are over there, like Accenture and all these other companies. A lot of people who know people that were there, we've kind of sputtered out there and to kind of flows back into your other point, which is retention. I mean, If you treat people like human beings ideas.

20:53 I mean, it's not, this is not rocket science stuff should be like, oh my God, it's crazy. Like, if you treat them like human beings, you valued ideas. You were, you don't talk to anybody build a culture of respect across the team and I can't tell you how many companies I've worked at the just didn't get. It's almost akin to the convenience department, store owner that has all the advertising in the cells and all this great stuff and they have all the merchandise and then you walk in and the people that are working there, just rude and don't understand customer service. Talk to people. If you Foster an environment where you're nice to your employees and they feel validated with their work and they feel like they can come talk to you.

21:39 I've had really good luck, keeping them around and also obviously like monetarily. I give out bonuses regularly. I don't just do like an end of the year. It was like like life is not based off of a 12-year calendar, like we do projects, we do, you know, day-to-day stuff. And if I see people are not built the culture and where our team will come to me and say, hey so-and-so is done, a really great job on this project and like that's an immediate like absolutely. We're not only, I can reach out to them directly. I'm also going to get them a bonus, you know, make sure we also referral bonuses for people who bring in other people from from their Network. So it's just fostering kind of an environment where people feel comfortable If you validated, they feel appreciated and I know it's answer everywhere but that's what works for us.

22:23 And we've had really, you know, we've had a lot of the same people for years and years and years and they just enjoy working with us. And for us because we just at the base level, my job, like I said, one of the three things is to protect them and I'm always from as and I don't let clients talk done to our people and if I do then if they do, then they're not our clients anymore. So I try to really make sure Protect our guys and make sure that they feel appreciated that's great and like hats off on the culture part J. And also on the part that you cannot measure. I mean in one calendar year like this is very old-fashioned and for people who like want to also kind of Deep dive and this and how to measure, I'm reading the book, I should have read it long time back. But I'm reading it now which The by John doerr which is the Okie our book.

23:22 Casual. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I advise everyone, I knew about it long, time back but just I had the chance to I'm reading it up. I'm almost done with it. And you know in the last chapters they talk about the culture and how it's important to, you know, put the cultural first, then you do this quarterly and you know, you do this weekly or bi-weekly check-ins on Whatever objectives, you want to put for the team and you do it in a collaborative way. So I think Jay, you did fantastic here. Thank you. Say, thank you, most welcome. I know that you are a horse for a podcast, first customer, right.

24:03 And you interview successful Founders about the initial customers. I'm curious, I'm curious to know like what are the most valuable lessons you have learned from those conversations. That's a good one. I think the most important lessons I've learned, are everybody's different everybody. There's my path is different, you know, it's very easy as a business owner. When once you've you have a little bit of success, running a business, people want to know how you do it. People ask you questions, and it's easy for me to regurgitate my story in my past. But I think the biggest lesson I've learned is just Gets two different, we are and that's not just business, it's everybody and just a path.

24:56 There is all different perspectives were all different but you know, universally been people's has kind of been. The one thing I've seen across the spectrum of CEOs and Founders is day. They respect the fact their people's time. They respect their contents time, they I think I think those are the biggest lessons. Yeah. I and I think it's a, it's an experience by itself. I'm in learning a ton of information. Every time I do, I do an episode. Like what I'm doing with you stage a so yeah, it's a huge learning experience.

25:38 I advise everyone if you have the time, if you have the passion to, you know, be consistent to do a podcast. I'm advising everyone to do this. Now while preparing for this episode I spoke something in your profile J. Which caught my eyes because I think we are similar, but I want people to heal from you. Sure are you? Yes. Oh, so you are known for the 545 lat. Can you explain? What is this routine and how it contributes to your success? Yes, it's something that just developed for it. You hear the fight.

26:19 Club of every book is a great book and talk. So I'm going to talk about the file. It's really just hours in before anybody else is up. I mean, that's really what it is. You feel like, you're feel like you're cheating a little bit by steal a little bit of the day. Before anybody gets five, am workup is the first cup of the first thing working out is the second thing. I'm movement is medicine. I can't tell you how much better physically and mentally. And when I get my 30 minutes of workout time and every day, And the other thing is the full body stretch. I don't think it in male Stratosphere really understands or understood how important stretching is.

27:01 It's a great kind of like premeditation move into. The next thing I do is meditate for 10 minutes a day and then I Journal. So that's my 545, each one of those things I think has Different kind of related benefits and it's just the end of all that you feel like you've already accomplished it out, 90% of your, I mean, what, what can't you do? If you can wake up, if you work out you pulled by a stretch, you meditate, you drumming. There's more things that people like strive to do at least like once a once a month, right? So if you do all those things in a day and everything else after that is downhill, right? There's not much challenge that I can't take on.

27:43 And so that's my that's my routine and of course I slip every now and again we use going to be one years old next smart. The four other kids to like there's times that things slip and that is my goal and hit it, you know, just about every day. That is my I wanted also people to hear from someone other than me because everyone calls me the five am guy for some, the book Itself, by Robin Sharma. Like, you know it caught my eyes I remember a couple of years back when when I first read it and I was seeing on social media, a lot of people kind of joking making, like, mocking up the book, you don't need to do this, I don't know and then I read the book and Exactly what you explain is. The concept is, it's not like about how long you do it. It's about you break your habits and then you wake up before everyone else.

28:44 And then, you know what? Like I can tell you, from my experience, I wake up actually at 4:30 and then, you know, I need to prepare. Because also the book explains, I advise everyone to read the book because you need to prepare your kid to need to prepare yourself. So by the time it's like Almost five. I do, of course Robin explained in 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20 minutes. But he said, like, you can mix and match actually. So, basically, what I do, I go for, I go for a 40 minutes while I have like calm music or like sometimes book. If I'm jogging, you know ebook. Sorry. Yeah, ebook. You know, like to to this one and then meditation and then you know the the journaling part I can't explain How much this was beneficial for me and, you know, the feeling when it's like 9 and you, look what you have accomplished already in the day because it's been like four hours now.

29:43 Since you woke up, I say, okay, my day is almost done and you know what? Like, even the book mentioned this, it's okay. Like you can take the rest of the day off, if you accomplish what you have to accomplish here. It's a life-changing book. It's a lifestyle out. I'd say and it's very healthy one. Like yeah, I lost weight because of it, I became more active actually. I did the jump from corporate to to entrepreneurship because of the book. I can, I can claim this. I can guarantee you. We are almost done Jaso. Just what advice you want to give for young entrepreneurs who want to start like what what you can tell now.

30:30 First of all, congratulations on making the jump from corporate and congratulations on the 5:00 a.m. That's a big. It's a big thing of it is is life-changing. A, my only note about that is that it's also, it also makes you sleep more makes you, it makes you go to bed early and it makes you invest in your sleep, you know, which is huge young entrepreneurs. Don't wait, stop waiting for the perfect moment saying out so many friends that, you know, asked me to do stuff and they and truck, give him a kiss tonight. I mean person I just get frustrated because it's a lot of waiting and it's a lot of well I could do it, but it's because of this and it's because of that and I couldn't because my channel just stop waiting, just do it.

31:19 Yeah, we'll go consult, take whatever experience you've got. Going up work. Going forward, look, given up work more money, than probably anybody should have to give, you know, platform my fees that they have taken over the years. So I'm I'm not affiliated like you said with up work, but it is a good platform to get your feet and Consulting. I'm fine, my marketing consultant, I didn't use up work. She reached out till list of like her to 30 or 40 connections and said, hey, I started doing marketing Consulting and I was one of them and I was like, Soil of the, you know, check your service, she's a thriving business because of it. So you don't have to use up work but don't wait, just go find something that you have experience in that you're passionate about and whether it's a business or a product or service, if it's a product goes to our testing it, if it's a service, then start getting clients and started doing stuff pro bono if you want to just get some social proof out there, but number one advice is just don't wait. Yeah.

32:21 And to add to what you said. Jake because you mentioned about not to wait, I did the mistake and I waited long enough, right? So here now, it's all the matters. Yeah, exactly. Like there's nothing called late actually, but I'm again, like I waited, I waited I waited but then I, you know, I can say something for the younger generation like I'm what they call them the Millennials I'm not Jamesy. So guys, you are lucky because You know, the internet today is different when I came young and he met was already out but you can test your ideas in no time. I'm seeing people who are like just it's not like a get-rich-quick scheme. It's not like this.

33:06 But I mean, it's test your idea, quick scheme. I can claim this and you have a lot of places where you can test your ideas, right? So you can go on Twitter, you can go on, read it, you can go on product hunt. The there are plenty of places where you can go out and try your ideas. Actually, you can even test it with your friends and families and the people are not given. Yeah. So 100% on this point, J. Howard is a great website to see or deduct any Pages you can make a mellow 10, any Pages for like 10 bucks a year or something? And you can about the landing page, just yesterday I came across, you know, framer and framer.

33:48 Now they have an arp Our landing page generator and I was but my mind was known. Like I just wrote like I gave the prom and exactly what if I wanted to design one card on any other landing page platform, exactly what I would do, no code tools. Are there as well? That can help me, automation tools are there, like, AI is there as well. So you can do a lot of things. You can just go out. Be passionate about what you do and go do it. There's no excuse, there's no ski exist. There's never gonna be a better time in human history. Just business. No reason to 100% Jay as we come to an end. I have a very famous question. I hope that you will like, I hope that you will like it. So, the question is, what is the question? You wish me to ask you and how you would answer it. Hmm.

34:44 Man, that's a good. I'm going to start asking that on my podcast. What question did I wish you'd ask me? Maybe. I mean, he has a lot of good questions. How about I'll tell weasel man. How about how could they find out more about ADA q0? No, please. And then I would say, you know, hit me up on LinkedIn, Jake agner on LinkedIn or go to our website, JD AQA.com.

35:28 How about that for a week or two that question? That's good. But by the way, I don't want to upset you J. But what I do usually at the end of the episode, I just say J how Yeah, I know if you ask a question and you can reach out to him and you would see also the website of his company as well. So, Jay thank you very much for joining today. I really enjoyed the discussion and it's nice also to talk to fellow poet. Cast us as well.

36:11 Like you feel more comfortable with rather than you know, like talking to people who are like, not eat the podcasting. Let's also make an estate make. It makes the job much easier for me. Let me thank you so much. Thank you very much. So, as we come to an end, for the people who are watching guys, if you are a first-time visitor here, please don't forget to subscribe to the channel. If you are watching this on YouTube, you can find you know, the title, it's over there. And if you are listening on your favorite podcasting platform. Also, don't forget to subscribe to our podcast. Not only this, please also tell your friends, your colleagues, your family members. We're trying really to make something different here. Bringing knowledge, bringing experience from people in the field intact in technology in general and in business and helping people to start their business as well. This is the aim of this show and If you have any questions, any feedback about this episode, all the show engine. Also don't estate, you can find me on LinkedIn on Twitter. You can shoot me an email as well. You can find it on the podcast description, and if you are interested to be a guest like Jay today, again, I'm open for that.

37:28 You can reach out to me. We can arrange for the topic for the time and we can make it. And as I say at the end of each episode, thank you for tuning in. And until we meet Meet in a new episode. Thank you. Bye bye. Hit that subscribe button. Share the show with your tech-savvy friends and fellow entrepreneurs and leave us a review on your favorite podcast app. Your support means the world to us.