#154 Breaking Codes and Taking Names: The Shashank Tiwari Journey.

0:00 From the heart of Dubai where tomorrow is being built today to the world, welcome to the CTO show with mehmed. Here, we redefined technology and reimagine possibilities with mehmed delve into the riveting Realms of AI cybersecurity and digital technology experience the thrilling highs and lows of startups. Immerse yourself in the spirit of Entrepreneurship and witnessed the future of business. Innovation, being written in real time. Now, without further Ado, let's tune in and explore the future. Hello and welcome to a new episode of the CTO show. With man, at my name is Muhammad. And as you know, in each episode I discuss about different topics related to technology.

0:53 Of course, from cyber security, digital transformation, emerging Tech, and I like also to have a merge between business and Tech. And this is why I have sometimes with me, CEO subject. Matter experts in topics related, also to technology. And today I'm very pleased to have with me Sanctuary. Who's the co-founder? CEO of who know that AI Shang? You very much, you're joining me in a little bit, late time for you in the Silicon Valley, thank you to be here today. Can you just tell us little bit more about yourself and about, you know, that AI absolutely. Well, firstly, thank you so much for having me on your show. You know, I really enjoyed listening to your show and, you know, it's just been an absolute pleasure, you know, watching you have those organic meaningful conversations. So, you know, thank you for inviting me to the show. I really appreciate it.

1:46 Pleasure. Yeah, absolutely. Now, let's get started. As you said, you know, a little bit of my background who I am, what's my story? And what are we doing it? You know, Ai and then, of course, you know I'd love to see how you are viewing this world as well. Right.we hopefully enjoy a nice conversation here. So in terms of background Mammoth I am you know 20 plus years in the industry as I like to say I almost had to careers in this, you know, 2025. Years that I've been working my early career was on Wall Street. I spent a lot of time, you know, building sort of algorithmic systems mathematician by training, kind of lost my way. There was lucky enough to work with some incredibly smart people. Build some very interesting systems in the usual suspect places.

2:32 Goldman Mariner Bank of America Securities that kind of world and then, you know, around 2009-10 is when I moved to Silicon Valley and now it's been about 15 years or so and being immersed in the world of startups, right? In in the, in the last just sort of this decade plus. As it happens in Silicon Valley, sometimes you also have to be, you know, lucky and be in the right place in the right time and I certain attribute. Some of my own learning, some of my own success to that, you know, I've been lucky to be on multiple Journeys super early on at this company called nutanix. You know that I went on a rant engineering at a company called Alimentum was you know in Medallia one. They were really you know growing at a very rapid pace and you know transitioning from a small company to a logical career. But I feel moved on ran in jet stack rocks. You know, and then now I am with my own interesting startup called own way.

3:23 I now as it happens in start a blind, you know of course when you're part of the startup world, you also end up advising and investing and, you know, kind of being part of the ecosystem and I've, you know, I've kind of played my part there as well. Right? And of course, you know, learnt in the process and contributed back. Hopefully, now in many of these startups, as I said, you know, there's luck which plays an important aspect, you know, and I've seen In that play out for me, at least, which, you know, I'm very thankful and grateful for more in terms, of course, you know, very smart people that you get to work with that you learn from but also that some of them actually became very rewarding and, you know, saw the light of the day, right? Like they were companies like neutronics that one public. Medallia went public stack rocks was acquired by red hat. So you know, those are again in the life of a start-up interesting and important Milestones not an end in itself, but you know, interesting Milestones when it is time, you know, a good time to kind of celebrate to reflect, you know. Enjoy the fruits of your labor, if you met in other cases, sometimes the learning itself is, is a huge reward, right? And I've had those also as a part of my face share, right, where you don't necessarily have a monetary outcome or, you know, the outcome set out for in the beginning. But you know there's immense amounts of learning immense amounts of growth, right?

4:35 So I'll certain you know if you get a chance I'll touch upon that. You know that's certainly been my story as well. Only I started late 2021 follow 2021 we are about Out 18 months old as a company. We've grown very rapidly. You know I was very lucky to be joined in this particular start up with some very smart people. My co-founder is an example is also a man who's highly respected, you know, with great credentials. You know he's someone who was part of the early silicon Valley's. The whole sort of event driven real-time system story. He was a core engineer at this company called tibco. We cross paths, you know, back at element, mm, where I was running a And she was one of the main Architects out there. We worked very closely.

5:19 We formed a very close, you know, sort of rhythm. Of course, I learned a lot from him back then, as well, you know, then he moved on and he built a lot of the core systems at this company called plume, which is another very interesting play because they have taken a completely radically different approach towards you know, bandwidth and Wi-Fi optimization using ML. And you know fine-tuning using algorithms rather necessary networks and you no more. Oh, that's his name, you know, he was a key part of the story there and then we got together. Weather for all of 20 21 and, you know, got started with googly eye or thesis that, you know, II and of course, you know, hopefully we will dig in a little deeper there and we'll tell you more about, you know, the product is thisis the problem. But in a nutshell we are essentially at this Leading Edge of applying a. I if you may decide you're not doing any more of those detection and, you know, sort of pattern matching or, you know, Trend extraction, which has been the last generation of ml usage but we really getting deeper into this area of Cause analysis, right?

6:17 We are getting deeper into decision-making with the quest that, you know, if we are able to reach our node star or Milestone, we would have built an analyst, a security analyst itself, not a tool for one, right? A thinking machine, something that can actually do the heavy lifting that humans have to do today in the world of cyber, right? So that's the aspiration, that's the goal today, we manifest more like a co-pilot. I think that's the jargon that is, you know, caught some momentum and increasingly being used. In the world of AI and our ambition is to go towards complete autopilot future, right? The copilot kind of peeling way towards that, you know, the smart machine that could actually do most of the work that Youmans do not just be an assist, right?

6:57 So, so that's the ambition, is Runo. Very ambitious Company, still a small company. Know, 10 people come, the incredibly smart Engineers on board. We just did a g, a 1.2 GHz, celebrated it after, you know, Blood Sweat and Tears over the last 18 months, think getting to this point. And yeah, as I say, the journey has been We begun, right? Like it is still like the first mile marker for very long. Marathon. Runner for 20 to run. Plenty, plenty to go. So, you know, that that's my background and the only way I story That's great. And congratulation on the launch. I know like, you know how it feels being myself. I didn't. Unfortunately, I was not able to be part of a founding team, but, you know, I know that, you know, I spoke to a lot of CEOs and you know, like that first moment when you have your product in front of people.

7:46 Now, what's interesting in, you know, your whole career and you know what you are doing now with, you know, Shawshank is you You are merging two really important Technologies, like, cybersecurity and AI at the same time. Now, the first thing I want to ask you and this question, by the way, like I'm repeating it may be, but I like to have different. I would say, opinions first. And second, the more you ask the people, you're more you get some inside. So some people say is that cyber security and our common friends Tom, he mentioned that on the Episode. It's kind of a crowded market and saturated market. Now, from a Founder perspective, and you have this ambition, how you make sure that with the product, that you are coming up with, in cybersecurity can really, you know, get the chance to be in the top.

8:45 Let's say, 10, 20 among all the other startups that are appearing every day, I would say, Absolutely fantastic question. Fantastic question very relevant question and you know something I'm sure every cybersecurity founder buyer, Community member things about all day long. The reality is, you know, as you rightly mentioned the the space of cybersecurity is kind of in a state of dichotomy, right? At on one side, you have the segment which is rapidly evolving. There is very large demand for it and the demand keeps growing so certainly, you know, there is one aspect of that. That your mom's side of the puzzle. But on the other side, as you rightly said, there are, there are hundreds.

9:26 In fact, thousands of companies that have, you know, sprung up over the last. I would say, primarily 57 years that have, you know, stepped in to kind of satisfy this Demand, right? And in fact in this springing up is 5,000 plus companies, your and many more that perhaps you and I both you haven't heard of but you know will eventually learn about which are perhaps, you know, getting built out somewhere or in the making Is really happening is that they are going very deep into one aspect of cyber, right? Like there's a specialization and the kind of, you know, Point solution approach has really been the driving factor for emergence of so many companies, right? Part of that is, of course, informed by the fact that, you know, everyone has a new fresh day at how to solve the good old problem, right of, especially understanding defending, and being on top of your cyber security posture, and then, of course, part of it is also the fact that, you know, the Industry and especially our thought leaders like Gartner's.

10:25 And others have been creating a lot of this. You know, I would call it structure around the industry in some sense, encouraging and inspiring people to go and find their home, right? So they are trying to bucket themselves or fill themselves in a particular quadrant or a particular definition, and then build a product around it, right. So I think a mixture of all of these have certainly created, you know, a lot of companies, a lot of companies that look very similar sound, very similar, and the old trying, Lock the doors of the same buyer. Right? There are trying to go get their attention and you know essentially sort of be the tool, right? And so definitely I think the point you made is absolutely correct. It's noisy. It's difficult to break through.

11:05 It's difficult to really stand out in that crowd right now. Artie says, you know, it was slightly different or not to say that's guaranteed, guaranteeing our success, but we do feel very uncorrect, right? With the early success, is that we flipped the story instead of trying to build a Product. You know and then try and sell it to our customers. We said well let's speak to as many customers as we can even before, we written one line of code, right? And truly, with the intention of trying to find that white space trying to find the gap of, you know, what is it that despite the fact that you, 5,000 tools is still missing, right? And when we went down that, you know, sort of rabbit hole. If you may write talking to experts and see sauce and people in the field and security operators, the once.

11:52 Common theme that emerged is that I don't think there is a dearth of tools. There are already too many tools that probably the, you know, there are there are way more tools than you can gain full use. What is the real problem? Is honestly skill Gap, right? And when I say skill Gap, I mean more from a standpoint was you've got the Security Professionals, you know, they are of course, struggling and being challenged to stay abreast with all, you know, sort of rapidly, evolving, attack surfaces, you know, types of attacks. So that's happening at one level but also So at the other level you have a diversity of people who really, you know, sort of work in the cyber security realm, right? You've got people coming from compliance background and ordered background and I don't were security, engineers, and researchers. And some just, you know, kind of program managers if you met and not, everybody is able to see the world the same way or is able to bring in, you know, the Deep technical expertise, the deep understanding of just about everything else, you know that is out there in the stack, right? So they're essentially struggling to Simply Be On Top of the game right there.

12:52 That's definitely a very clear sort of, you know, skill Gap, and a need there in the market and even worse than that. The the other problem is that if you start parsing that even further, you will realize that the skill Gap in only get worse. And by do you get worse is because the underlying technology, the types of applications the data flows, the complexities is not stopping. It's not like hey, we Cloud migrations and now, you know, all our, you know, evolution is done right? In fact, it's the beginning, right? And so the architecture Chiral types, types of Technologies. Everything else that the security team is tasked to protect is also changing on a daily basis, right? So. So anyway, so for us, I think, you know, long story short.

13:32 What we converged on is that if we are able to somehow meaningfully solve the skill Gap problem, right? And in a way that it provides tangible business value to the and companies because at the end of the day, these and companies are businesses, you know, and they've got to optimize towards their own shareholders towards their own growth. If anybody to do that, Some way I think that's where we could perhaps. Get love, perhaps, get attention, right? And and a chance to succeed. So that has been very much in the DNA of the company, right? Like, we're very customer focused company and even when we went down this ambitious path, we said, what can we build today and how should we progress our product so that we can start solving problems today, right? And we can is not really solving problems today from a standpoint of exactly what I mentioned.

14:16 Right, let's go bridge this. The Gap. Today to the extent. We can. Let's go make the team's more efficient with the Tools. They have instead of they going and buying yet another tool. Let's go and try and give them more bang for the buck right-click, basically increase their productivity and help them in some sense, you know, do more with less right? And so the entire packaging, the way we have been approaching this is like, hey, we are not yet another tool. In fact, we are not the 5,000 First Tool at all. We are a security analyst, right? And so make, oh no a member of your team, think of it as that instead of hiring five more team members, right? Or spending immense amounts of Dollars trying to, you know, get your current team to perform you know, faster better more effectively more efficiently while get to know onto your team, right? This is your expert system.

15:02 This is your security analyst that will do a lot of the heavy lifting and also help the rest of the team grow and prosper, right? Like help them Thrive had then become more effective. Help them become more efficient. So that's really our sort of value prop out here again, like I mentioned, it's still early, right? So we'll see how that pans out. But it's been very encouraging because Cuz you know, this really falls into the years that is very receptive to this type of, you know, sort of understanding of the problem bring something that really solves the problem as opposed to yet another cool shiny tool. You know that is sold using a mechanism which says hey you need this and this is why you need this, right? Let me donate too much of convincing of why you need, who know, but we need to focus more on.

15:42 Does who know really solve the promise that we are saying it does, right? So, so the storyline kind of flips a little bit there. I love this session because Being on this show now for a couple of months and I had a lot of people who are experts in cyber security every single time I ask. Okay, what are the biggest challenges? Other than that tax and fishing. So, the answer that was always coming in as short, a skill, a skill shortage, right? So and this is where I think you are, adding the value. The other thing that I honestly and you know, maybe by now everyone who follow the show knows that I give Idiot honest feedback.

16:24 I loved your approach because you are not saying, hey, like you're not like getting on the bandwagon and say, hey, like, I have this. I don't know, you know, this fancy Wars. So I love this approach, honestly, because you are starting from solving a real customer pain, or real custom problem, which is the lack of skills out there. And then what I understood, Now from you is that your solution provides kind of an augmentation of that existing cybersecurity skills, right? So this is very good. Now you mentioned that the problem will become more worst with the future.

17:08 So because everyone talks about the shortage and skills when it comes to cybersecurity. And even you know, I had a guest and he was saying that there was a study in the u.s. that Caesars the They even don't last more than two years right in that position, correct. Now with the rise of a, I do you think that way I can slowly and by adopting Solutions like what you are doing now with Ono, can slowly try to fill these gaps within within the cyber security department of of the Enterprises and to how far we can really rely on AI to take care of our Unity posture. Yeah, so fantastic.

17:55 Question again out there met. I think I would break this into two parts, right? Sure. The reason I break this is one is a very cybersecurity specific way of thinking, right? Because we suffer with some problems, which is unique to our industry in a way, right? And we can delve a little bit deeper into it and I'll give my two cents into the mix. And then the second part, which I think is equally important is what kind of roles are, what kind of jobs can we expect a? I to really do in the times to come. Come right. Which will also, of course, apply back into the realm of cyber, right? As much as it might, apply to other kinds of jobs as well. Write like accounting or business analysis, or you know, whatever else software development or sales or you know what have you, right?

18:37 So I think like if you start looking at cyber security per se, right? And you already kind of said it, I think the skill Gap is is a multi-level problem, right? Like so if you sparsit at one level, you don't have enough for. Very trained, very smart, analysts researchers, Security Professionals, who are required at the operational level right to run programs to make it successful, right? So there is a, there is a dearth of enough, smart people there and the few that are out there are already well employed, and in fact, in huge demand, right? So it's not like you could just multiply them that Gap. I think the the method that we are looking at right now and the rest of industry is also kind of beginning to think in that direction in terms of some form of value-added augmentation, right? Like a co-pilot certainly starts easing, that pain out right where you can start saying, hey, I could have a newbie or a lesser trained person, and this particular person could also act like a trained analyst with the help of AI, with the help of dueling, with the help of, you know, the appropriate amount of data and training and so on so forth, right here. You, of course kind of bringing it all together. So that's one way of thinking about it. And there I certainly feel that the value creation and the New realization will keep going up.

19:53 The stack, in the sense that it will start with it being a small assist, right? Or a co-pilot like what we have done. For example, today's hey, you take 57 days to do your searches and, you know, Stitch everything together. Well, that's a small query five minutes and you can do it in. All right, so that's already a substantial Quantum jump, but then, you know, beyond that when you start looking at also exploratory analysis, you start looking at, you know, thinking through, you know, the tribal knowledge that analysts have but kind of baking that into an AI and In and then, you know, doing all the root cause analysis and decision making, now you are kind of getting into that realm where you could say. Could this really replace certain types of roles completely, right? Let could this end up, you know, essentially becoming be analyst a true analyst, right? And we certainly feel you know both in terms of thesis and my own understanding that certainly we are headed in that direction. You know, it would not be surprising at all that that actually comes sooner rather than we all think in the sense that Within Next three, five, eight years we will start seeing that become more and more real and More in front of us right now.

20:57 Of course, we'll start seeing inklings of it much sooner with co-pilot maturing, maybe in two to three years. You would start seeing a lot of those very Elementary L1 L2, you know, and especially entry-level L1 type roles all being eradicated and then, you know, kind of start walking up, that stack, right? So that's definitely. I think a logical progression will see. Now, in terms of the leadership roles, right? Like, if you start looking at security manager, see source, Thought leaders, I think that segment will also benefit from it and why it will benefit from it. As I think there are, there are two or three things, I feel at a meta level at the higher level. That me, I would do very well for those roles as well. Firstly, a lot of those senior folks today are are very bogged down by operational day to day tasks, they have no time, no bandwidth.

21:42 Really think strategically right there always living in fear, in fact, in some cases, right? Like they don't want to be preached, they don't want to be attacked, they don't want to be in the news. So, Always living with the sense of. Hey, do I have good posture? Do I have enough controls? You know, I hope I'm not the target for the next ransomware act like, you know, they are kind of struggling with that, which is also part of the reason why many of these you know, top leaders don't survive more than two years and then they have immense pressure from the board. They've immense pressure from the other leaders, you know? And then sometimes they just crumble under the pressure. Sometimes, you know, Unfortunately, they get fired because not necessarily because of their own fault, but you know, overall pressure, they're not here. Able to deliver strategically that the rest of the leadership is expecting, right? And so, I feel that with a are taking on a whole bunch of these sort of, you know, call them difficult. But you know, operational tasks.

22:34 Yeah. Free up mind space for a lot of these leaders, right? Then they would be able to have better visibility that we have to start thinking more strategically, you know, and start planning things out. More at a, I would say level that is not stuck in block and tackle on a daily basis, right? So that's how I think like cyber is going to get him. A kadai to think. I think it will have a humongous part to play and write in in the whole cyber realm. Now, add large, do just to kind of complete that puzzle. The second part that are kind of demarcated, right, I broke your question down into two parts here with me. That I do feel that, I think AI at large is going to have a humongous impact. Now, I must mention this, you know, if you start looking at the online content to rewrite like, if you go and just look up the social media or, you know, all the balls and noise around AI becoming You know, the intelligent machine and replacing humans, I don't think, I don't believe, you know, being deep into this puzzle having understood this quite closely for so many years. I don't think we are anywhere close to it, to be honest, right?

23:34 And what I mean by that is that I don't think we have the fear of AI going rogue and, you know, destroying humans or, you know, I think there has been some parallels being drawn that could be as catastrophic as nuclear war or the pandemic. And, you know, we should put a stop on this AI Evolution. They've been Congressional hearings, you know, big There's have been signing, you know, referendums around it to say, hey, let's go and, you know, stop this. I think that is a little dramatized to be honest. Yeah, right. Like I don't think we had any way close to them. Now whether we will lead to that someday, it's possible. Of course, you know, technology has been evolving. And we don't know where that, you know, he does 10 years, 15 years, 20 years out, right? And maybe that's some of that will get accelerated, but having said that, I think that's a very far away as picture.

24:18 What is your real though? Is a lot of that tasks that We do today that involve less decision-making but a lot of effort. Right? So I want to clearly kind of demarcate it like that. Lots of effort. Let's decision-making 6, not easy. You still have to go and you know comb data together. You have to combine it, right things. And then even some elements of creativity. I think those will certainly get replaced by aii, right? And that that impact will be across the board. It will impact writers. It will impact, you know, marketing folks. It's gonna impact Engineers, it's gone. In fact, you know, the business development folks. It's going to impact cybersecurity for but that element we are just talking about in some sense you know, automating away. And then adding away some of the things that are complex today. So simple workflow automation conduit. But you know, it can be replaced with, you know, an AI engine that can do that heavy lifting and also put things together and generate stuff for you, right?

25:13 Which were already kind of seen with a lot of generative AI. So I think that is certainly going to happen, right? And it's that, that impact might be quite spread And we'll start seeing that quite rapidly across Industries and you know, that that itself might drive some fear, but I don't think we are going towards a, I taking over humans anytime soon, right? Like, I, I doubt we are anywhere close to it. Actually, I have repeated it on the show multiple times because, you know, every I think every now and then I used to see these articles stream media. They are very good at this in, you know, throwing these very catchy title. So people just click You can go there and then I repeat it like guys, like at the end of the day the AIG - A I specifically chat GPT and barred from Google. Now they don't act by themselves. They need someone to give them a prompt to they can act and you know like just to simplify it a little bit so something like you know, dot AI, which is your own company, again, it requires some input and it requires some human interaction to it, so it can go and do what it's supposed to do.

26:20 So, this is why On the long run as you said until we have a, a machine that can think, you know, reasoning we will not have this. And honestly speaking someone who started his career in a Data Center and you know, and in behind the keyboard and the screen, I wish I had charged EPT at that time because it would save me. A lot of times I could focus on, for example, thinking, okay, as I system admin or a security analyst, How I can contribute to my, you know, the character place I work in increasing number of, I don't know, maybe customers or I can increase their revenue, even if they are nonprofit, how I can, you know, make these guys have more visibility in the market from it perspective. So, I have to agree with you Shashank hundred percent. Now, you mentioned a couple of things and I don't know how I will try to make it into one question, but chiefly, if you want to break it down, like you mentioned ransomware, right? And then we met we touch base on the AI and we talked about the board just last week, I shared that also that episode where there was an article saying finally CEOs are understanding the real strengths of ransomware right now. We have a i how long it would take until you know, the board would understand.

27:43 Oh, hey, like we need to invest in a I power tools. Not only for, you know, the use cases where that we see. On day to day basis, but also to, you know, make our security defenses much stronger by getting the. I do you think we will have to wait long time until the board? Because what I hear till now, unfortunately the board they say yeah we know that there is a risk out there. Ransomware is the most you know famous one now DDOS attacks and so on. They said but you know what, okay until we get it we'll think about it. Do you think we will? We'll have the same thing with the adopting AI. It's a good question, and I will, you know, give my two cents again.

28:29 We don't know, right? We'll see the future unfolds should all learn together, right? When that happens. But just, you know, having an understanding of the landscape and, you know, having seen how company leadership and boards and you know CEOs have been sort of adapting. Right. And evolving over the years. There are, there are such a three or four underlying factors that I think would be better to kind of understand a bit more. And, you know, that might then I guess allow us to project or allow us to guess you know, how soon the I adoption could be at that level right or how enthusiastic would they be about it? So I think the first way to think about this is you know, how popular has a particular concept or technology become from a day-to-day life standpoint, right.

29:16 So it's one thing to think of it from your corporate decision-making standpoint. Then another where you know, it's become part of common life, right? And so if you encounter that, That every day in your life, with your family, with your personal life, you know with your friends I have a feeling that it does impact your thinking right. Whatever role you may be in, right? And which is why we saw the story play out with let's say social media adoption, right? Like if you go back 10 years, 15 years back, most Enterprise CEOs, would say, hey, we don't need to do any social media, you know, that is meant for consumers stuff, right? Like, especially Enterprise P2P Centric, cos right? Like, they were just rule it out. Very soon. What ended up happening was all the influencers. All the real, you know, sort of decisions were getting impacted by what people were picking up a tree in social media, right? Conversations.

30:07 Like, this and podcasts right things that were being discussed on Twitter, on Reddit, you know, any individual blog posts, right? And so on so forth. Right? LinkedIn. So, you know, those venues which initially the CEOs kind of discounted soon became primary platform for them to engage with, right? And at multiple levels. You know, to engage with from a customer success standpoint to engage which from an understanding of the market standpoint to engage with from a messaging standpoint to engage with from a standpoint of, you know, also driving influence, right? And so similarly I feel like what has happened with AI is it's got some, you know, interesting Tailwind out here. And, you know, some help from all the buzz that has been created because of chat g b d.

30:52 So, you know, to be just again up front - I don't believe Chad GPT is as awesome as cool as its projected to be. It is fantastic. You know, I don't mean to Discount. All the great work that has been done. The new language models LM is, is is outstanding for sure. It's bringing together years of research with Transformers and attention and other kinds of work that has happened in the world of the eye and kind of packaged beautifully. So you can a, you know, a lay man, a common person could get their hands on it and, you know, enjoy the power of the eye right on. Like a lot of the previous one. Which we are just restricted to researchers, you know, within company limits. And so I think that has made it common Jog and not today everybody from a student to a common person know, you're in a non Tech person has started talking about Ai and with our chat G, PT and language models and what have you read?

31:41 Like these words are becoming commonly used so that I feel will definitely influence the COS right when their friends talk about it when the family's talk about it, when they see it in the newspapers on the hear about it on TV, they feel like well what am I doing as Leader in my company, right? Like what am I doing in terms of the I right? So I think definitely that will help you know just broadly in terms of AI adoption. So that's one thing. Now of course when we get more specific in terms of cyber will that translate to Ai and cyber investment? I think that's the second part of the puzzle, right? Like the second part of the puzzle, really is the so far right Eve until very recently. And even today, for many companies cyber is, is kind of looked at in the same light that you would look at insurance, right?

32:24 Or some kind of Roll. Exactly right. Where the idea is? I'm going to buy that because well I don't want to be, you know, left out in the cold in case disaster, strikes me. But the funny part is that most people assume that even if disaster strikes me it's not going to be me. It's got to be someone else, right? So if you ask any see your, you know, even if they are unaware of how get their security posture is, but you can say, hey, what do you think is your chances of being attacked by ransomware or, you know, you I'm having a substantial loss because of a cyberattack, I'm fairly confident from all my conversations over the years that they will probably discount it down. You know, most CEOs will say, well, I don't think the risk is that much, right? I think we've got a good team and we're on top of it, and we have most things covered, right?

33:10 And if you need to do more, we will look at it in the future, right? So the as you rightly said, they will kind of point it out right, like, yeah, we'll see when it happens. Now, that of course, is changing with every news that becomes more visible. And very much of face of these leaders, right? We like when, when the next competitor or the, you know, the neighboring, large Enterprise that you look up to, right? Like when they start getting attack, when they start getting hacked, I think that's when the kind of, you know, the awareness about this suddenly becomes a lot more, right? Because then you start worrying, you start feeling that it has hit close to home, you know what I mean? Like now it's really personal. Like yeah, I know that company and, you know, I know those people and they were smart people and they were hit, well, maybe Could be hit as well, right? So now you start sort of, you know, empathizing a bit more with that problem space and that has happened. Because, you know, we've been seeing that month-on-month, right?

34:03 Like every month, every day we start seeing more and more stories of different types of attacks, different types of losses. And then last, but not the least consequences of also increase, right? So, you know, if you start thinking about it, you know, a few years back, they would be hacks attacks, you would put a little press release out. You would put a little apology out and you know job done move on, right? You do the next thing. He right. But what has translated now is the monetary loss reputation, loss brand loss has really Amplified, it has just gone from it, being a minor headache to a major problem, right? Like, you know, leaders have lost their jobs companies, have lost their statuses, their customers and some have lost substantial amounts of money, you know, millions of dollars of fine and, you know, stuff like that.

34:47 So I think that is going to really play A Part as well in becoming more conscious becoming more proactive about cyber and you know, some are already Going at it as almost a competitive Advantage where they are saying, like, hey, if I have a good cyber pasture, right overall? Good cyber control. It gives me the same advantage that I have. If I have a fantastic resilient scalable infrastructure, right? Because why else do we put money? Let's say, in a resilient scalable infrastructure because, you know, at the underlying motivation is that I'd be able to service more customers that we will be, keep them happy, you know, grow at my face and, you know, outsmart all the other competition, right? I'll be ahead of the game. And I think that some digital transformation leaders and some, you know, sort of forward-looking CEOs are beginning to think in that light, right, where they are saying, hey, if I also have a very strong cyber pasture, right? I have a very strong central nervous system resilient infrastructure.

35:40 I think I would be able to do a lot more digital business, which is really where most of the business is going as opposed to my competition supposed to my industry. And, you know, therefore I will be, you know, the leader of the pack, right? So, I think once these three different sentiments come through one is He had becoming more sort of a common word know, it's already kind of happening cyber becoming less of an insurance and more of a, you know, important choice, you know, moving from, you know, you know, I just need to have because I checked the box as opposed to consciously making that decision to have it and then third, of course, you know, leaders making it as a part of investment just like you do with other kinds of resilient infrastructure and seeing the benefits of it, right? And then others kind of following.

36:21 So once these three things kind of come together, I think yes the, you know, the Cyber and AI emergency is, you know, definitely on the cards. And I do think that it's sooner than we think. I agree with you a society because it's something that they cannot ignore anymore. Because as you said, when they will start to see it going around them, of course, they will have to, you know, say okay we need to adopt this so advice I would say if you are a an executive listening to this take action or at least start to talk to your team as soon as possible before. It's too late. Because what's happening in this space, both in the Cyber and in the AI and Tech in general.

37:02 Maybe before if you miss two, three years, that's fine. And then you can catch up. But now if you miss a couple of weeks, you might be missing a huge opportunity. Now, I want to shift gears a little bit if you don't mind and just act like you've been, you've been part of several high growth compact, right? And some of them they were like very big Established companies and that same time you work. Now you have your own startup and you are part of other startups like mechanics and others. How do you compare? You know, the way you as a leader, you lead teams in startups versus leading teams in a established company. I'll just fantastic question again. I think that two different worlds, right? So the way I like to think about it is that and again, start up. I think, is it?

37:55 It broadly used words, I'm going to break it down even further, right? So this is our tubs which are like barely getting started, you know, which I think in Silicon Valley job and we love to call it the 021 Journey, right? Thanks. Yes. Yes book 02 fun. That is kind of, you know, even popularized it. So there is the beginning at the very beginning, Like when you, when you go from a concept to accompany the 021 stain, right? And then, there are startups that are at that one phase, so to speak. But, you know, then they're scaling the become a proper Enterprise, right? Their Journey for grow, their Journey towards becoming a, be a public company and, you know, becoming further and farther there. Right. And then, of course, the third part is, while you're part of a larger company, I think that, you know, all these three. If you made the 0 to 1, the growing company and the logic company as a leader And also as a member I think your roles and your expectations are very different, right? So what happens is that when you are in a zero to one phase you really almost run like a sports team to some level. I feel like you know, that's the best analogy. I can think of, right?

39:02 Like you need High performers, you need, you know, a bunch of high performers are small team to kind of gel. Well, teamwork is very important because, you know, one or two members, not playing the part, can just spoil the game. Writes, the team sport. And then the third part is, you got to move fast, right, and improve, and learn fast as a team, right? And then, at the same time, sometimes you need generalists, right? You need people, who can wear multiple hats, do more things. Similarly, the same thing for a leader, right? Like as a leader like what we end up, what I end up doing today and I've seen other fantastic, you know sort of 0 to 1. Cos do the same thing or you know, me as a leader and zero to one of the journeys as well. You know attempt to do or at least I'll get to do is that where you want to lean on? Nice.

39:44 A smooth transition on a day-to-day basis between the player coach. If you may write, you got to be the player, you got to do your things, you got to roll your sleeves up, right? Whether it means, you know, being the first salesperson effectively, which I am kind of, you know, in some sense, that's what I've been doing to even, you know, slinging code, if it's required to, you know, going and doing your Regulatory Compliance activity to interviewing to even, you know, - dating on your least. What have you write? Like, what I'm saying, is every day's operational activity. There is the Player model. Where you behave? Exactly. Like every other member of the team is doing, right? You build to manage you complete the tasks. So that's basically the partner, right?

40:25 But at the same time, there's a second part of the puzzle which is really, I would call more of a coach model. And, you know, I'm talking about a coach was an inspirational, quote, not a good choice, screaming from the sidelines asking the players. They're not playing well, right? So I feel like, you know, as a as a leader, as a good sort of a leader in the zero to one phase, I think the important part. Is to inspire your team, right to get them excited to remind them of the, the North Star right from time to time because it is extremely draining. In early-stage startups of people can be very consumed in what they're doing and sometimes they tend to forget the larger pictures of pull them out of it. Let them dream big. Let them look at the larger picture, right? So you definitely have to play that card and it's pretty much like playing a game, right?

41:08 It's almost like every day is almost like playing one tiny game towards the big tournament. Right? And you're the winning the tournament is the Should have reaching that one fails read the 0 to 1 is just a bunch of games that you play every game, some you win some, you lose. But you know, overall if you come stronger, you know, you reach the one face with confidence, right? So that's usually the 021 Journey, right? The classic enlisted Journey. Now if you start going towards the growth stage companies, as a leader, specially your task is now to begin to start setting some processes, you know and I've also been you know lucky enough to be in those roles, you know, like I mentioned with Medallion was a classic example. A love that, you know, there were two 500 people company when I joined them, they ended up becoming a few thousand people revenues grew very rapidly and about 50 plus or so million.

41:53 It was in order to help bring them 300 million. So, you know, it was always like a super growth on all fronts, you know, the revenue front organization front and there, I think the leadership expectations really were around setting processes to scale, right? Yeah, the key word being scale, right? Like, what kind of incentives can you set? What kind of objective measures? Can you set? How can you Empower other people? What organizational structure is Reich, you know, for the company to thrive or how repeatability can be done, what can be automated out? You know what kind of talent needs to be brought in and a lot of it obviously goes towards team building, right? So I think like that definitely becomes your primary priority. Now with larger companies, you know, again it becomes interesting and complex, you know, some of this, of course, the growth phase activities continues through into larger companies because some larger companies also keep growing for lots of I'm even after they become public and big, you know, which we have seen with so many of these Silicon Valley, Giants themselves, right?

42:50 Yeah. And they have a similar sort of a flavor, but also, there are other aspects with logical music come in, right, like where there's also an aspect of stability. Now, you have to start balancing between scaling growing and stability because you have a large customer base, you know, you have a reputation to keep, right? You got a team that, you know, may not be as inspired as they are when you are in a fast-growing, you know, building something new face, but you still Need to keep them motivated to sometimes. You know, obviously most of the times, in fact, you are now looking at International offices and, you know, cross-border geographies and making sure that rhythm is manage, there's fairness in the company, you know, that they were able to scale Beyond, you know, one location if you may or one product and then, you know, I think a lot of it also ends up becoming in a way I would say is managing the aspirations and the politics that does creep up in those large.

43:44 Ization. Right? Like you have to kind of have to figure that out, right? And I'm not even saying that in a negative way. Don't get me wrong. The animal there are some places which become very toxic and difficult to manage but even in the best of places which are very fair and you know, which are very upfront. I think like just the fact that there are so many people and complexity, I think there is definitely an aspect of managing expectations, managing politics, you know, managing messaging, you know, managing the overall sort of scope of If you mandate and so those become much larger pieces of the puzzle and as a leader, as a manager, if you're able to do that effectively, right? And keep multiple sets of people happy and you know, keep the Rhythm and grow then I think. Yeah that's that's success in the larger Enterprise we? Yeah and I think also maybe we could add transparency as well, right?

44:35 Like and Intercultural because we discussed this also and in one episode that they think this is one of the most have out. Especially when you go from what you mentioned, the 0212, you know, the growing phase and later on. Now, you mentioned a lot of the startups, right? That you were part. The Black nutanix Elementary, Medallia stack rocks, which one you can say it really reshape the way, you know, you used to. You used to look at and you felt you know, like this was We a life-changing moment for you.

45:18 I think each one of them dead in a way, so they all have different impacts. I mean, just to go back and just highlight a bit. I think, you know, when, when I became part of nutanix, I mean, I was an individual contributor. Really, you know, when I started out, they were a small team. They were quite literally three people in a room type of a company. You know, they were very small company. It was still a concept just emerging with the initial product and the founders were extremely smart. You know, there are some of the smartest people here in Silicon Valley and I think I definitely learned a lot in terms of great and in terms of focus and in terms of, you know, how to build a company, right? So that was definitely learnings that I took away from the experience, I really loved it. I think like even today some of the stuff that I try to apply in my day-to-day is certainly things that I learnt, you know, over ten years back.

46:06 Now in that Journey at nutanix, right? Which certainly started laying the foundations for who I ended up becoming right. And then when I went to Elementary, I think Alimentum was a very different story. You know, I was responsible to drive all of engineering Elementary. I honestly learned a lot about hiring. I think, you know, it was about or building hiring the best talent that was my primary focus, and I did a bunch of other things. You know, obviously architecture product strategy, company strategy, and the ups and downs that happen with a start-up on a day-to-day basis. But I think one of my biggest learning experiences, there was, you know, oh, just attracting specially like sort of, you know, TR one Talent, right?

46:49 Insulin, which is always very difficult to attract because those are the ones that are not looking. Those are the ones that have most amount of choices, you know. And those are the ones that you want to hire, right? And those are the ones, everybody else also wants to hire. So it's a very easy one, right? You're almost like doing storytelling and concept selling morning to evening to convince them to join you and you're right. So I think I certainly learned a lot of that from there. It was very rewarding. I also love Again, the leadership there, the other people there was an incredibly talented team and, you know, again, I think there was a lot of learning all around right now from Medallia standpoint. I think they were multiple things in my daily at the definitely shaped me. I loved that company. You know, I think I made all sorts on of great friends there.

47:30 Just like I had dead in other places as well prior to that in even before all this startup Journeys. But Medallia really in some sense to me was an eye-opener right? And what I mean by eye-opener was most companies that I had been in till then Or my understanding of start of post always about. Yeah, you build some cool awesome Tech. Then you find your early customers, you know, then you build a formidable company and, you know, then you become big and large and, you know, then you go public, right? Like that was my sort of mental model for a start-up. When I came to Medallia, I was very impressed by the fact that the founders had really bootstrapped the company for the first many years and different different. In fact profitable, right? And they were very close to the customers. They understood the problem, really well, they had Close relationship with their customers and the customers really love them, they were in love with the that the team, the product, you know, they, they really doted on them, right? And the task, when I had entered in their Journey, it was all about scaling them to the Enterprise level and Beyond. Right?

48:30 And I think, what I really saw was the story was in some sense flipped in, you know, most other startups. The story was, let's build an awesome product then we'll find customers. And here it was more like, hey, they have customers who love the product because As we give value, even if it's not, you know, a scalable or as tech savvy in the beginning, but we can add more capabilities on top of it so that it can become really where it should go, right? So a lot of innovation in Medallia really happened. Thanks to the customers. It was really based very closely working with customers, it was always a very customer first company, right? Like in some cells, like what we talked about Amazon being a customer first company. I think, Mmm Italia kind of lived that same dream, right side.

49:11 Certainly like influenced me in a big way, right? And I since then, you know, I always thought. So, just having done prior things also in my life, but I think that was like the reinforcements, right? Like, if you're building a business, it's all about customers. Everything else comes second rights and the present, right? So, I think that was reinforced there and then last, but not the least, stack rocks. Again, was a very interesting Journey with stack rocks. My biggest learning was tagged, Knox was in some sense. You know, again, in a space it was a security company, you know, and I think we were again among the first few companies in that space container security or You know what we have today of cwpp, see nap and all these good acronyms didn't exist back in the day, right? And so I think, at that point in time we were investing a lot of energy.

49:54 Educating our customers, as much as you know, providing a solution to that, right? And that wasn't easy, but I think we had the great and we had the tenacity and we had the confidence in our, right? And I think that that dream and tenacity and confidence, again of the founders of the leaders out there of the engineers out there, I think certainly was something that, you know, again. Force my belief in the fact that if you really, after solving a certain problem, if you really believe in a certain kind of a company, nothing should stop you, right? There is no reason for you to at least doubt yourself and if you're doubting yourself well, then you know, that's fine. But then you should step back and figure out what is it that you want to double down on, right? Like, what is it that you want to Rally behind? So, fighting that way, I kind of learned and picked up everything all along the way, and, you know, beyond that also, even the companies that I've advised invested in operate, some pertain and they've been quite a few of those also. In Silicon Valley, I think like, every interaction, every day, in fact, even today, is every conversation teaches me, something like, I might almost feel like every conversation I walk into including today, as I walk in with the expectation. That, hey, I'm going to pick up something, some new nuggets that, hopefully, I can experiment try and learn from nice.

51:05 I know Shashank, you also an advisor, right? And for many other startups and if I am, you know, someone who just you know, came out of college or I decided to drop out, I don't know because this is that what happened usually in the valley and I want, you know, to take the path, should I start, you know as an engineer go all after Ike than become a be a CTO, one day and then find an idea try to build it or should I go with the shortcut trying to find an idea and build it today like which one is Is is more suitable for someone who might be now listening or watching this.

51:51 Yeah, it's it's again your voice down to individual choice, right? There's no. Right or wrong answer that the way I, the way I think about this is, you know, and I'll get, I'll give you my perspective, right? It's not a right or wrong perspective at my perspective, I feel like, you know, we we as a society, tend to get over biased and attach more weights to the winners, right? Like that's how we as a society are, right? And and as a society we are also and it's a good thing that we are optimistic. He also technically known the fact that hey, there's going to be one out of ten winners that one is me right? And the, you know, so therefore I should just go with exactly what the winners do. Right.

52:32 On the other hand, the reality, which I think really plays out much better. In, my opinion is a place where you allow yourselves the right kind of preparation. If you may or the right kind of preparedness for you to go play the game, right? Like going back to my analogy of sort of team sport. I do feel that I think getting into To a start-up mode is, is very similar to getting into starting a career in music or trying to go become a professional athlete or, you know, or trying to go get into a creative skill. And why I say that is because you know it has an element of risk. It has an element of you know Freedom. It has an element of innovation and idea that is going to drive right? And you have to uniquely stand out on your own. So there I feel like I think what really helps at least in the world of Chip is it's better to try by. Right?

53:23 So if you can and if you end up becoming an early engineer in a start-up, right? Like for example, it started with your calling and you just graduated from college today. Well the best choice could be go. Join us start, right? And what would that do for you? Is it would do two or three things, one. You would get a first-hand flavor. You're not reading and at TechCrunch article, or reading in the books. What a start-up is like, but now you are part of a journey, right? You're experiencing it every day, right? And you can decide for yourself. Is that what you want to sign up? Right? So the territory, the game becomes a little more familiar, right? So that's one thing. Secondly, as I, you know, always kind of very firmly, believe that, you know, specially those employees who join in the 021 Journeys, right? Like the early employees who are the young girly employees? They basically end up becoming Future Leaders future Founders, right?

54:14 And many of these guys have found those that the first startup really, to be the training ground, like, it's a very fertile. Training ground for future Founders. Future CEOs? Right now, I've had some of that experience myself. And, you know, there are many stories like that in Silicon Valley, you know, the first engineer or the tenth employee or, you know, something like that. Go ahead and starting the next company. And in fact, becoming bigger than the start of that, they were part of, right? And so I think like there's certainly an element of kind of learning and growing with it, right? So I certainly encourage that the the other part that I do want to mention is that, you know, I stand that, you know, folklore and just overall Romanticism has projected this whole idea of, you know, dropping out of college and doing a start-up in becoming Mark Zuckerberg or, you know, one of those has become the, The Legend of the story. I had Bill Gates, and Mark Zuckerberg for the world or Steve Jobs, right?

55:07 Like, these guys have become, you know, kind of God level figures, right? In Silicon Valley but I think for every of those massive humongous, big figures there are equal number of people who have actually spent a lot of time. Getting trained finding their Rhythm, you know, Finding their place, right? And the enough people who have gone to college or work for the companies, you know, and then learnt, the things that they wanted to be prepared for before they jumped in, right? And so, I would lean on that, you know, find your calling, don't just follow it for the sake of, you know, because it's fashionable to do, it's better to spend time learning. It's better to spend time building your confidence. It's better to spend time, you know, being ready for the game, you know, go play the game, go to play the game with confidence, but, you know, go play the game with confidence once you've practiced hard enough, right? I can you feel confident?

55:56 You're going to go win the game. Yeah. And I think they would understand more how to find or spot problems and how to go speak to customers later on, right? Absolutely. I think like those are the in fact, three things, I would say pretty quickly on that customers. Like, most first time people don't have a sense of customers. When you work somewhere, you understand multiple things about customers, including customer success. Keeping them happy, you know, trying to attract them all that good stuff, right? And you're like, you also said all the problems, right? All the problems become familiar. You almost have a, have a sense for it. Now, you understand, you may not be able to solve it necessarily but at least you have a sense of how bad can the problem get and Hina and in a funny way.

56:39 I think the roller coaster of early-stage startup kind of makes you more even Keel. And that has definitely happened for me. Also, you know, even as an experienced person over the years, I think the more Startups, you go through the more, you kind of take it in the stride, you realize that hey I'm going to start my morning, feeling all Jubilee and then top of the world and by lunch, I might feel like the world is coming to an end and you know, I might lose my day. Feeling. Yeah. Everything is all good, right? And that roller coaster of emotion. All right, essentially, something that you need to get comfortable. Yeah, it's great inside. I would say, AB changing, as we are coming to the end. I have a very famous question. What is the question? You wish that I asked you? Well, that's that's an interesting one. I haven't had this before because it's really a fun one. I love that when I would say.

57:30 I think, you know, one thing I like to share. So I'll ask me if you care to ask you. That question is like, you know, how what what does success look like for me, you know, success is something that has Society. We celebrate a lot. What does it really mean, right? And what does it look like for you? So I think you know, that's something I would love to ask you. Also, in fact counter, if you're willing to share and I'd love to share my two cents on it. Yeah, Cheryl's. First and then I will tell you. Okay? Perfect? Yeah absolutely. So I feel like, you know, over the years as I've been also you know growing older and Gathering more experience. I have mulled over a lot about this whole concept of success. What exactly is Success, right? And what is it that we are targeting and success?

58:11 Of course at every level right success specially at the corporate level that we are talking about success of the individual levels Etc, family level success that a society level. I Of pink and you just something I mulled over quite a bit there. I think we over attach importance to the reward. I think you know success for the most part has become synonymous with reward, right? But I feel the success really is about great Journeys, right? And this is something that I have learned with my own experience and of course if you get the reward at the end of The Journey, you know it's of course exciting. And you know, it's kind of in some sense you know, check It's the final box, but I do feel that I think a lot more excitement, a lot more satisfaction, a lot more success. So to speak, right at multiple levels, your growth, your happiness, your satisfaction, you're learning, you know, and your overall sort of attachment to things and you know, your your desire to do.

59:12 Well in it. All of that is really more a function of Journey, right? And so if you're having an enjoyable, good journey, I think that's success, right? Like you want to do more of it, you know? Of you kind of get Intoxicated by it, in some sense in a positive way, right? And if the journey is painful, right? And if the journey is not, and when I say painful, not in the sense of challenging and helping you grow, but painful, in terms of pulling you back, painful in terms of, you know, being very conflicting with your ideas, or your ethics, or your moral compass, or any of any of the other things, right? That could be confusing. I think the reward honestly, even if it appears successful is not Success, you know, placed in my opinion, I feel like it's actually very painful and it it's a downer, right?

59:56 So again, sort of in simple words, I think the journey is the reward, not the reward itself, right? The end of it and that I think I have concluded more. So of course, I want to succeed in terms of the reward as well even today in my journey. But you know I think the journey but I'm enjoying every day. Right? So hundred percent. So my answer would not be very different than your shank and maybe I'm sharing this the first time but which is fine but I repeat something and maybe the This would know by now for me, actually, it's always success. I always maybe like a little bit too much optimism, but this is the way I think, because for me, there is nothing called failure, there is always learning. So, of course, there are some emotions that comes and you feel, hey, like, today, I try to do this, but I was not able to do or maybe I try to do something, but I figured out that I was going the wrong way.

1:00:50 Okay, fine. So I say, I didn't actually I succeeded to know that this way doesn't work, right? So this is the way I look at it, of course, but success can be measured. Also, some people, as you said, they measured by how much money you make some people. They measure like, how many friends you have? How much activities you are enrolled into for me? Like of course like these are small elements that it's like the top of the iceberg I would say because success really is about for me at least by the end of the A, if I figured out that I learn something new, this is a huge success for me, like, for me, I feel fulfilled. I learn something new or I help someone. This is for me, the success, of course like I'm not too much. I would say going into the Zen philosophy or something. No of course we are living in reality, we need all to make money and of course if I make money out, he also be successful.

1:01:46 But yeah. Like I like to see the things into a positive way. I like always too. To I tell everyone, I don't have the word failure in my dictionary, I removed the years back, I say I did mistake tomorrow, I will not do it again. I succeeded to avoid this mistake from now on so this is how I do it and fighting. Yeah yeah, make her think. Yes, thank you sir. John. Well really, I enjoyed the discussion. I really enjoyed your deep detailed answers and you know, I believe you know, a lot of the false, whether when we covered little bit about the tech part When we covered the startup part. And by the way, the book that Shashank mentioned, whether you agree with the author or not read the book 0 to 1, it's a must-read book for anyone.

1:02:34 Not only if you are planning to have a start-up, but I read it myself. I didn't agree with every single thing that Peter says there. He goes a little bit. Like a people would say, he's how you say this word. Yeah. Like he said, you should go and do it. Monopoly for whatever you are right believer of Monopoly. Yeah, I don't agree with all these ideas either but it's an interesting book. Every yeah. But, but he's Point actually. And this is why I'm saying because I'm focusing now on startups and all these things nowadays, because if you need to start a company that can last long go somewhere where really you can be the 02, I'm like where there's no much people around you. If you go now and you tell me hey my mat like I'm gonna start a Storage to a company.

1:03:24 We going to have the disks and this and fast. I'll tell you, you're playing in a red ocean. You should go play in the blue oceans. Anyway, so so at this is one of the books maybe I would do. One episode just about books. One day Shawshank. Thank you very much. You stayed like a key play for you at this time. I really appreciate the time. And for the audience as usual, if you are watching this Please let us know what you think. Subscribe to the channel. We are having a lineup of more guests also as well. Summertime, I think I would not be stopping, so keep watching this space if you are listening, using your favorite podcasting platform. Also, if it's your first time, just subscribe to the podcast and stay tuned.

1:04:07 Don't forget tell you your friends colleagues and family. We are trying to get the best of the best here in educational and fun manner as you have seen today, so keep tuned. Four more episodes and until we meet in the next episode. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for having me tonight. Wait my pleasure, hit that subscribe button. Share the show with your tech savvy friends and fellow entrepreneurs and leave us a review on your favorite podcast app. Your support means the world to us.