June 20, 2023

#154 Breaking Codes and Taking Names: The Shashank Tiwari Journey.

Show Notes
Transcript

In this episode, we welcome Shashank Tiwari, the visionary tech leader behind Uno.ai, a game-changing cybersecurity startup. With a rich history in leading high-growth companies like Nutanix, Elementum, Medallia, and StackRox, Shashank shares invaluable insights about the cybersecurity market, the role of AI in addressing the skills gap, and the nuances of leading teams in startups vs. established companies. He also discusses the lessons he learned from his journey and offers invaluable advice to the younger tech generation. Finally, he provides a profound answer to the ultimate question: "What does success look like for me?" This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom for tech enthusiasts, emerging leaders, and anyone with an interest in the dynamic world of cybersecurity.

Find more about Shashank's startup:

https://uno.ai/

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From the heart of Dubai where
tomorrow is being built today to

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the world, welcome to the CTO
show with mehmed.

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Here, we redefined technology
and reimagine possibilities with

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mehmed delve into the riveting
Realms of AI cybersecurity and

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digital technology experience
the thrilling highs and lows of

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startups.
Immerse yourself in the spirit

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of Entrepreneurship and
witnessed the future of

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business.
Innovation, being written in

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real time.
Now, without further Ado, let's

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tune in and explore the future.
Hello and welcome to a new

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episode of the CTO show.
With man, at my name is

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Muhammad.
And as you know, in each episode

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I discuss about different topics
related to technology.

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Of course, from cyber security,
digital transformation, emerging

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Tech, and I like also to have a
merge between business and Tech.

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And this is why I have sometimes
with me, CEO subject.

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Matter experts in topics
related, also to technology.

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And today I'm very pleased to
have with me Sanctuary.

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Who's the co-founder?
CEO of who know that AI Shang?

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You very much, you're joining me
in a little bit, late time for

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you in the Silicon Valley, thank
you to be here today.

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Can you just tell us little bit
more about yourself and about,

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you know, that AI absolutely.
Well, firstly, thank you so much

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for having me on your show.
You know, I really enjoyed

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listening to your show and, you
know, it's just been an absolute

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pleasure, you know, watching you
have those organic meaningful

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conversations.
So, you know, thank you for

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inviting me to the show.
I really appreciate it.

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Pleasure.
Yeah, absolutely.

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Now, let's get started.
As you said, you know, a little

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bit of my background who I am,
what's my story?

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And what are we doing it?
You know, Ai and then, of

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course, you know I'd love to see
how you are viewing this world

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as well.
Right.we hopefully enjoy a nice

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conversation here.
So in terms of background

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Mammoth I am you know 20 plus
years in the industry as I like

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to say I almost had to careers
in this, you know, 2025.

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Years that I've been working my
early career was on Wall Street.

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I spent a lot of time, you know,
building sort of algorithmic

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systems mathematician by
training, kind of lost my way.

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There was lucky enough to work
with some incredibly smart

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people.
Build some very interesting

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systems in the usual suspect
places.

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Goldman Mariner Bank of America
Securities that kind of world

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and then, you know, around
2009-10 is when I moved to

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Silicon Valley and now it's been
about 15 years or so and being

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immersed in the world of
startups, right?

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In in the, in the last just sort
of this decade plus.

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As it happens in Silicon Valley,
sometimes you also have to be,

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you know, lucky and be in the
right place in the right time

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and I certain attribute.
Some of my own learning, some of

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my own success to that, you
know, I've been lucky to be on

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multiple Journeys super early on
at this company called nutanix.

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You know that I went on a rant
engineering at a company called

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Alimentum was you know in
Medallia one.

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They were really you know
growing at a very rapid pace and

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you know transitioning from a
small company to a logical

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career.
But I feel moved on ran in jet

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stack rocks.
You know, and then now I am with

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my own interesting startup
called own way.

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I now as it happens in start a
blind, you know of course when

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you're part of the startup
world, you also end up advising

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and investing and, you know,
kind of being part of the

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ecosystem and I've, you know,
I've kind of played my part

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there as well.
Right?

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And of course, you know, learnt
in the process and contributed

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back.
Hopefully, now in many of these

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startups, as I said, you know,
there's luck which plays an

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important aspect, you know, and
I've seen In that play out for

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me, at least, which, you know,
I'm very thankful and grateful

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for more in terms, of course,
you know, very smart people that

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you get to work with that you
learn from but also that some of

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them actually became very
rewarding and, you know, saw the

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light of the day, right?
Like they were companies like

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neutronics that one public.
Medallia went public stack rocks

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was acquired by red hat.
So you know, those are again in

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the life of a start-up
interesting and important

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Milestones not an end in itself,
but you know, interesting

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Milestones when it is time, you
know, a good time to kind of

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celebrate to reflect, you know.
Enjoy the fruits of your labor,

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if you met in other cases,
sometimes the learning itself

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is, is a huge reward, right?
And I've had those also as a

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part of my face share, right,
where you don't necessarily have

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a monetary outcome or, you know,
the outcome set out for in the

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beginning.
But you know there's immense

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amounts of learning immense
amounts of growth, right?

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So I'll certain you know if you
get a chance I'll touch upon

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that.
You know that's certainly been

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my story as well.
Only I started late 2021 follow

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2021 we are about Out 18 months
old as a company.

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We've grown very rapidly.
You know I was very lucky to be

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joined in this particular start
up with some very smart people.

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My co-founder is an example is
also a man who's highly

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respected, you know, with great
credentials.

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You know he's someone who was
part of the early silicon

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Valley's.
The whole sort of event driven

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real-time system story.
He was a core engineer at this

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company called tibco.
We cross paths, you know, back

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at element, mm, where I was
running a And she was one of the

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main Architects out there.
We worked very closely.

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We formed a very close, you
know, sort of rhythm.

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Of course, I learned a lot from
him back then, as well, you

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know, then he moved on and he
built a lot of the core systems

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at this company called plume,
which is another very

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interesting play because they
have taken a completely

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radically different approach
towards you know, bandwidth and

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Wi-Fi optimization using ML.
And you know fine-tuning using

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algorithms rather necessary
networks and you no more.

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Oh, that's his name, you know,
he was a key part of the story

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there and then we got together.
Weather for all of 20 21 and,

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you know, got started with
googly eye or thesis that, you

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know, II and of course, you
know, hopefully we will dig in a

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little deeper there and we'll
tell you more about, you know,

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the product is thisis the
problem.

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But in a nutshell we are
essentially at this Leading Edge

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of applying a.
I if you may decide you're not

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doing any more of those
detection and, you know, sort of

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pattern matching or, you know,
Trend extraction, which has been

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the last generation of ml usage
but we really getting deeper

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into this area of Cause
analysis, right?

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We are getting deeper into
decision-making with the quest

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that, you know, if we are able
to reach our node star or

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Milestone, we would have built
an analyst, a security analyst

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itself, not a tool for one,
right?

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A thinking machine, something
that can actually do the heavy

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lifting that humans have to do
today in the world of cyber,

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right?
So that's the aspiration, that's

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the goal today, we manifest more
like a co-pilot.

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I think that's the jargon that
is, you know, caught some

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momentum and increasingly being
used.

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In the world of AI and our
ambition is to go towards

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complete autopilot future,
right?

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The copilot kind of peeling way
towards that, you know, the

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smart machine that could
actually do most of the work

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that Youmans do not just be an
assist, right?

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So, so that's the ambition, is
Runo.

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Very ambitious Company, still a
small company.

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Know, 10 people come, the
incredibly smart Engineers on

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board.
We just did a g, a 1.2 GHz,

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celebrated it after, you know,
Blood Sweat and Tears over the

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last 18 months, think getting to
this point.

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And yeah, as I say, the journey
has been We begun, right?

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Like it is still like the first
mile marker for very long.

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Marathon.
Runner for 20 to run.

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Plenty, plenty to go.
So, you know, that that's my

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background and the only way I
story That's great.

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And congratulation on the
launch.

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I know like, you know how it
feels being myself.

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I didn't.
Unfortunately, I was not able to

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be part of a founding team, but,
you know, I know that, you know,

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I spoke to a lot of CEOs and you
know, like that first moment

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when you have your product in
front of people.

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Now, what's interesting in, you
know, your whole career and you

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know what you are doing now
with, you know, Shawshank is you

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You are merging two really
important Technologies, like,

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cybersecurity and AI at the same
time.

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Now, the first thing I want to
ask you and this question, by

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the way, like I'm repeating it
may be, but I like to have

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different.
I would say, opinions first.

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And second, the more you ask the
people, you're more you get some

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inside.
So some people say is that cyber

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security and our common friends
Tom, he mentioned that on the

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Episode.
It's kind of a crowded market

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and saturated market.
Now, from a Founder perspective,

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and you have this ambition, how
you make sure that with the

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product, that you are coming up
with, in cybersecurity can

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really, you know, get the chance
to be in the top.

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Let's say, 10, 20 among all the
other startups that are

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appearing every day, I would
say, Absolutely fantastic

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question.
Fantastic question very relevant

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question and you know something
I'm sure every cybersecurity

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founder buyer, Community member
things about all day long.

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The reality is, you know, as you
rightly mentioned the the space

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of cybersecurity is kind of in a
state of dichotomy, right?

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At on one side, you have the
segment which is rapidly

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evolving.
There is very large demand for

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it and the demand keeps growing
so certainly, you know, there is

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one aspect of that.
That your mom's side of the

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puzzle.
But on the other side, as you

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rightly said, there are, there
are hundreds.

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In fact, thousands of companies
that have, you know, sprung up

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over the last.
I would say, primarily 57 years

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that have, you know, stepped in
to kind of satisfy this Demand,

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right?
And in fact in this springing up

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is 5,000 plus companies, your
and many more that perhaps you

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and I both you haven't heard of
but you know will eventually

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learn about which are perhaps,
you know, getting built out

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somewhere or in the making Is
really happening is that they

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are going very deep into one
aspect of cyber, right?

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Like there's a specialization
and the kind of, you know, Point

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solution approach has really
been the driving factor for

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emergence of so many companies,
right?

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Part of that is, of course,
informed by the fact that, you

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know, everyone has a new fresh
day at how to solve the good old

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problem, right of, especially
understanding defending, and

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being on top of your cyber
security posture, and then, of

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course, part of it is also the
fact that, you know, the

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Industry and especially our
thought leaders like Gartner's.

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And others have been creating a
lot of this.

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You know, I would call it
structure around the industry in

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some sense, encouraging and
inspiring people to go and find

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their home, right?
So they are trying to bucket

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themselves or fill themselves in
a particular quadrant or a

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particular definition, and then
build a product around it,

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right.
So I think a mixture of all of

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these have certainly created,
you know, a lot of companies, a

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lot of companies that look very
similar sound, very similar, and

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the old trying, Lock the doors
of the same buyer.

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Right?
There are trying to go get their

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attention and you know
essentially sort of be the tool,

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right?
And so definitely I think the

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point you made is absolutely
correct.

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It's noisy.
It's difficult to break through.

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It's difficult to really stand
out in that crowd right now.

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Artie says, you know, it was
slightly different or not to say

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that's guaranteed, guaranteeing
our success, but we do feel very

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uncorrect, right?
With the early success, is that

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we flipped the story instead of
trying to build a Product.

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You know and then try and sell
it to our customers.

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We said well let's speak to as
many customers as we can even

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before, we written one line of
code, right?

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And truly, with the intention of
trying to find that white space

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trying to find the gap of, you
know, what is it that despite

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the fact that you, 5,000 tools
is still missing, right?

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And when we went down that, you
know, sort of rabbit hole.

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If you may write talking to
experts and see sauce and people

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00:11:48,500 --> 00:11:51,900
in the field and security
operators, the once.

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Common theme that emerged is
that I don't think there is a

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dearth of tools.
There are already too many tools

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that probably the, you know,
there are there are way more

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tools than you can gain full
use.

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What is the real problem?
Is honestly skill Gap, right?

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And when I say skill Gap, I mean
more from a standpoint was

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you've got the Security
Professionals, you know, they

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are of course, struggling and
being challenged to stay abreast

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with all, you know, sort of
rapidly, evolving, attack

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surfaces, you know, types of
attacks.

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So that's happening at one level
but also So at the other level

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you have a diversity of people
who really, you know, sort of

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work in the cyber security
realm, right?

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You've got people coming from
compliance background and

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ordered background and I don't
were security, engineers, and

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researchers.
And some just, you know, kind of

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program managers if you met and
not, everybody is able to see

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the world the same way or is
able to bring in, you know, the

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Deep technical expertise, the
deep understanding of just about

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everything else, you know that
is out there in the stack,

248
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right?
So they're essentially

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struggling to Simply Be On Top
of the game right there.

250
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That's definitely a very clear
sort of, you know, skill Gap,

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and a need there in the market
and even worse than that.

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The the other problem is that if
you start parsing that even

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further, you will realize that
the skill Gap in only get worse.

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And by do you get worse is
because the underlying

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technology, the types of
applications the data flows, the

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complexities is not stopping.
It's not like hey, we Cloud

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migrations and now, you know,
all our, you know, evolution is

258
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done right?
In fact, it's the beginning,

259
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right?
And so the architecture Chiral

260
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types, types of Technologies.
Everything else that the

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security team is tasked to
protect is also changing on a

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daily basis, right?
So.

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So anyway, so for us, I think,
you know, long story short.

264
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What we converged on is that if
we are able to somehow

265
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meaningfully solve the skill Gap
problem, right?

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And in a way that it provides
tangible business value to the

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and companies because at the end
of the day, these and companies

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are businesses, you know, and
they've got to optimize towards

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their own shareholders towards
their own growth.

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If anybody to do that, Some way
I think that's where we could

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perhaps.
Get love, perhaps, get

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attention, right?
And and a chance to succeed.

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So that has been very much in
the DNA of the company, right?

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00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:04,400
Like, we're very customer
focused company and even when we

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went down this ambitious path,
we said, what can we build today

276
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,500
and how should we progress our
product so that we can start

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solving problems today, right?
And we can is not really solving

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00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:16,400
problems today from a standpoint
of exactly what I mentioned.

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Right, let's go bridge this.
The Gap.

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Today to the extent.
We can.

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Let's go make the team's more
efficient with the Tools.

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00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:25,300
They have instead of they going
and buying yet another tool.

283
00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:28,300
Let's go and try and give them
more bang for the buck

284
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,600
right-click, basically increase
their productivity and help them

285
00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:33,700
in some sense, you know, do more
with less right?

286
00:14:33,700 --> 00:14:37,400
And so the entire packaging, the
way we have been approaching

287
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,300
this is like, hey, we are not
yet another tool.

288
00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:41,500
In fact, we are not the 5,000
First Tool at all.

289
00:14:42,100 --> 00:14:44,100
We are a security analyst,
right?

290
00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:47,800
And so make, oh no a member of
your team, think of it as that

291
00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:50,700
instead of hiring five more team
members, right?

292
00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:53,600
Or spending immense amounts of
Dollars trying to, you know, get

293
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:57,500
your current team to perform you
know, faster better more

294
00:14:57,500 --> 00:15:00,500
effectively more efficiently
while get to know onto your

295
00:15:00,500 --> 00:15:02,500
team, right?
This is your expert system.

296
00:15:02,500 --> 00:15:05,500
This is your security analyst
that will do a lot of the heavy

297
00:15:05,500 --> 00:15:08,100
lifting and also help the rest
of the team grow and prosper,

298
00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:09,900
right?
Like help them Thrive had then

299
00:15:09,900 --> 00:15:11,800
become more effective.
Help them become more efficient.

300
00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:16,300
So that's really our sort of
value prop out here again, like

301
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I mentioned, it's still early,
right?

302
00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:21,400
So we'll see how that pans out.
But it's been very encouraging

303
00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:24,300
because Cuz you know, this
really falls into the years that

304
00:15:24,300 --> 00:15:27,300
is very receptive to this type
of, you know, sort of

305
00:15:27,300 --> 00:15:29,500
understanding of the problem
bring something that really

306
00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:32,600
solves the problem as opposed to
yet another cool shiny tool.

307
00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:36,500
You know that is sold using a
mechanism which says hey you

308
00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:38,200
need this and this is why you
need this, right?

309
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,100
Let me donate too much of
convincing of why you need, who

310
00:15:41,100 --> 00:15:42,700
know, but we need to focus more
on.

311
00:15:42,700 --> 00:15:45,300
Does who know really solve the
promise that we are saying it

312
00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:47,500
does, right?
So, so the storyline kind of

313
00:15:47,508 --> 00:15:51,000
flips a little bit there.
I love this session because

314
00:15:52,900 --> 00:15:56,100
Being on this show now for a
couple of months and I had a lot

315
00:15:56,100 --> 00:16:00,200
of people who are experts in
cyber security every single time

316
00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:01,700
I ask.
Okay, what are the biggest

317
00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:04,600
challenges?
Other than that tax and fishing.

318
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:10,100
So, the answer that was always
coming in as short, a skill, a

319
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:13,700
skill shortage, right?
So and this is where I think you

320
00:16:13,700 --> 00:16:16,800
are, adding the value.
The other thing that I honestly

321
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,300
and you know, maybe by now
everyone who follow the show

322
00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:24,100
knows that I give Idiot honest
feedback.

323
00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:28,100
I loved your approach because
you are not saying, hey, like

324
00:16:28,300 --> 00:16:32,400
you're not like getting on the
bandwagon and say, hey, like, I

325
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:37,400
have this.
I don't know, you know, this

326
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,900
fancy Wars.
So I love this approach,

327
00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:45,300
honestly, because you are
starting from solving a real

328
00:16:45,500 --> 00:16:48,800
customer pain, or real custom
problem, which is the lack of

329
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,100
skills out there.
And then what I understood, Now

330
00:16:52,100 --> 00:16:56,500
from you is that your solution
provides kind of an augmentation

331
00:16:57,300 --> 00:17:01,000
of that existing cybersecurity
skills, right?

332
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:05,000
So this is very good.
Now you mentioned that the

333
00:17:05,300 --> 00:17:08,099
problem will become more worst
with the future.

334
00:17:08,099 --> 00:17:12,800
So because everyone talks about
the shortage and skills when it

335
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,500
comes to cybersecurity.
And even you know, I had a guest

336
00:17:17,099 --> 00:17:21,500
and he was saying that there was
a study in the u.s. that Caesars

337
00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:24,900
the They even don't last more
than two years right in that

338
00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:30,600
position, correct.
Now with the rise of a, I do you

339
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:35,800
think that way I can slowly and
by adopting Solutions like what

340
00:17:35,900 --> 00:17:41,200
you are doing now with Ono, can
slowly try to fill these gaps

341
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:45,600
within within the cyber security
department of of the Enterprises

342
00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:51,300
and to how far we can really
rely on AI to take care of our

343
00:17:51,900 --> 00:17:55,300
Unity posture.
Yeah, so fantastic.

344
00:17:55,300 --> 00:17:59,100
Question again out there met.
I think I would break this into

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00:17:59,100 --> 00:18:00,600
two parts, right?
Sure.

346
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,800
The reason I break this is one
is a very cybersecurity specific

347
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,700
way of thinking, right?
Because we suffer with some

348
00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:09,900
problems, which is unique to our
industry in a way, right?

349
00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:12,100
And we can delve a little bit
deeper into it and I'll give my

350
00:18:12,100 --> 00:18:15,700
two cents into the mix.
And then the second part, which

351
00:18:15,700 --> 00:18:18,600
I think is equally important is
what kind of roles are, what

352
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,700
kind of jobs can we expect a?
I to really do in the times to

353
00:18:21,700 --> 00:18:22,200
come.
Come right.

354
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,100
Which will also, of course,
apply back into the realm of

355
00:18:25,100 --> 00:18:27,800
cyber, right?
As much as it might, apply to

356
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,500
other kinds of jobs as well.
Write like accounting or

357
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,600
business analysis, or you know,
whatever else software

358
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,000
development or sales or you know
what have you, right?

359
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,800
So I think like if you start
looking at cyber security per

360
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:41,900
se, right?
And you already kind of said it,

361
00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:46,500
I think the skill Gap is is a
multi-level problem, right?

362
00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:50,800
Like so if you sparsit at one
level, you don't have enough

363
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,500
for.
Very trained, very smart,

364
00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:58,400
analysts researchers, Security
Professionals, who are required

365
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,700
at the operational level right
to run programs to make it

366
00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:03,800
successful, right?
So there is a, there is a dearth

367
00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,400
of enough, smart people there
and the few that are out there

368
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,100
are already well employed, and
in fact, in huge demand, right?

369
00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:14,200
So it's not like you could just
multiply them that Gap.

370
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,400
I think the the method that we
are looking at right now and the

371
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,600
rest of industry is also kind of
beginning to think in that

372
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,900
direction in terms of some form
of value-added augmentation,

373
00:19:23,900 --> 00:19:26,000
right?
Like a co-pilot certainly starts

374
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,300
easing, that pain out right
where you can start saying, hey,

375
00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:32,300
I could have a newbie or a
lesser trained person, and this

376
00:19:32,300 --> 00:19:35,800
particular person could also act
like a trained analyst with the

377
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:40,400
help of AI, with the help of
dueling, with the help of, you

378
00:19:40,408 --> 00:19:43,200
know, the appropriate amount of
data and training and so on so

379
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:44,700
forth, right here.
You, of course kind of bringing

380
00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:47,500
it all together.
So that's one way of thinking

381
00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:49,600
about it.
And there I certainly feel that

382
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,500
the value creation and the New
realization will keep going up.

383
00:19:53,500 --> 00:19:56,900
The stack, in the sense that it
will start with it being a small

384
00:19:56,900 --> 00:19:59,500
assist, right?
Or a co-pilot like what we have

385
00:19:59,500 --> 00:20:01,100
done.
For example, today's hey, you

386
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,100
take 57 days to do your searches
and, you know, Stitch everything

387
00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:07,300
together.
Well, that's a small query five

388
00:20:07,300 --> 00:20:09,400
minutes and you can do it in.
All right, so that's already a

389
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,600
substantial Quantum jump, but
then, you know, beyond that when

390
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,700
you start looking at also
exploratory analysis, you start

391
00:20:15,700 --> 00:20:18,400
looking at, you know, thinking
through, you know, the tribal

392
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,300
knowledge that analysts have but
kind of baking that into an AI

393
00:20:21,300 --> 00:20:24,700
and In and then, you know, doing
all the root cause analysis and

394
00:20:24,700 --> 00:20:27,600
decision making, now you are
kind of getting into that realm

395
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,300
where you could say.
Could this really replace

396
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:32,400
certain types of roles
completely, right?

397
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,000
Let could this end up, you know,
essentially becoming be analyst

398
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,400
a true analyst, right?
And we certainly feel you know

399
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,800
both in terms of thesis and my
own understanding that certainly

400
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,400
we are headed in that direction.
You know, it would not be

401
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:50,000
surprising at all that that
actually comes sooner rather

402
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,300
than we all think in the sense
that Within Next three, five,

403
00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:56,100
eight years we will start seeing
that become more and more real

404
00:20:56,100 --> 00:20:57,400
and More in front of us right
now.

405
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,100
Of course, we'll start seeing
inklings of it much sooner with

406
00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:02,300
co-pilot maturing, maybe in two
to three years.

407
00:21:02,300 --> 00:21:06,100
You would start seeing a lot of
those very Elementary L1 L2, you

408
00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:08,700
know, and especially entry-level
L1 type roles all being

409
00:21:08,700 --> 00:21:11,800
eradicated and then, you know,
kind of start walking up, that

410
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:13,300
stack, right?
So that's definitely.

411
00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:15,100
I think a logical progression
will see.

412
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,700
Now, in terms of the leadership
roles, right?

413
00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:21,600
Like, if you start looking at
security manager, see source,

414
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:26,000
Thought leaders, I think that
segment will also benefit from

415
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:27,300
it and why it will benefit from
it.

416
00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:29,700
As I think there are, there are
two or three things, I feel at a

417
00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:33,800
meta level at the higher level.
That me, I would do very well

418
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,700
for those roles as well.
Firstly, a lot of those senior

419
00:21:36,700 --> 00:21:40,300
folks today are are very bogged
down by operational day to day

420
00:21:40,300 --> 00:21:42,300
tasks, they have no time, no
bandwidth.

421
00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:45,500
Really think strategically right
there always living in fear, in

422
00:21:45,500 --> 00:21:47,600
fact, in some cases, right?
Like they don't want to be

423
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,500
preached, they don't want to be
attacked, they don't want to be

424
00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:52,800
in the news.
So, Always living with the sense

425
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,600
of.
Hey, do I have good posture?

426
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,400
Do I have enough controls?
You know, I hope I'm not the

427
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,000
target for the next ransomware
act like, you know, they are

428
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,900
kind of struggling with that,
which is also part of the reason

429
00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:05,800
why many of these you know, top
leaders don't survive more than

430
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:07,900
two years and then they have
immense pressure from the board.

431
00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:10,900
They've immense pressure from
the other leaders, you know?

432
00:22:10,900 --> 00:22:13,600
And then sometimes they just
crumble under the pressure.

433
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,700
Sometimes, you know,
Unfortunately, they get fired

434
00:22:15,700 --> 00:22:18,800
because not necessarily because
of their own fault, but you

435
00:22:18,808 --> 00:22:21,600
know, overall pressure, they're
not here.

436
00:22:21,700 --> 00:22:24,500
Able to deliver strategically
that the rest of the leadership

437
00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:27,600
is expecting, right?
And so, I feel that with a are

438
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,500
taking on a whole bunch of these
sort of, you know, call them

439
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,300
difficult.
But you know, operational tasks.

440
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:36,900
Yeah.
Free up mind space for a lot of

441
00:22:36,908 --> 00:22:38,900
these leaders, right?
Then they would be able to have

442
00:22:38,900 --> 00:22:41,100
better visibility that we have
to start thinking more

443
00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:43,900
strategically, you know, and
start planning things out.

444
00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:47,700
More at a, I would say level
that is not stuck in block and

445
00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:51,000
tackle on a daily basis, right?
So that's how I think like cyber

446
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,200
is going to get him.
A kadai to think.

447
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,700
I think it will have a humongous
part to play and write in in the

448
00:22:56,700 --> 00:22:59,700
whole cyber realm.
Now, add large, do just to kind

449
00:22:59,700 --> 00:23:01,800
of complete that puzzle.
The second part that are kind of

450
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,500
demarcated, right, I broke your
question down into two parts

451
00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:08,200
here with me.
That I do feel that, I think AI

452
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,600
at large is going to have a
humongous impact.

453
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,700
Now, I must mention this, you
know, if you start looking at

454
00:23:13,700 --> 00:23:17,000
the online content to rewrite
like, if you go and just look up

455
00:23:17,100 --> 00:23:20,700
the social media or, you know,
all the balls and noise around

456
00:23:20,700 --> 00:23:23,500
AI becoming You know, the
intelligent machine and

457
00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:27,500
replacing humans, I don't think,
I don't believe, you know, being

458
00:23:27,500 --> 00:23:30,300
deep into this puzzle having
understood this quite closely

459
00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:32,400
for so many years.
I don't think we are anywhere

460
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,400
close to it, to be honest,
right?

461
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,600
And what I mean by that is that
I don't think we have the fear

462
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,200
of AI going rogue and, you know,
destroying humans or, you know,

463
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,000
I think there has been some
parallels being drawn that could

464
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,900
be as catastrophic as nuclear
war or the pandemic.

465
00:23:46,900 --> 00:23:49,900
And, you know, we should put a
stop on this AI Evolution.

466
00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:52,000
They've been Congressional
hearings, you know, big There's

467
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,300
have been signing, you know,
referendums around it to say,

468
00:23:55,300 --> 00:23:57,000
hey, let's go and, you know,
stop this.

469
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:59,700
I think that is a little
dramatized to be honest.

470
00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:01,200
Yeah, right.
Like I don't think we had any

471
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,000
way close to them.
Now whether we will lead to that

472
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,700
someday, it's possible.
Of course, you know, technology

473
00:24:06,700 --> 00:24:08,600
has been evolving.
And we don't know where that,

474
00:24:08,700 --> 00:24:12,000
you know, he does 10 years, 15
years, 20 years out, right?

475
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,800
And maybe that's some of that
will get accelerated, but having

476
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,800
said that, I think that's a very
far away as picture.

477
00:24:18,300 --> 00:24:21,800
What is your real though?
Is a lot of that tasks that We

478
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:26,400
do today that involve less
decision-making but a lot of

479
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:27,300
effort.
Right?

480
00:24:27,300 --> 00:24:29,600
So I want to clearly kind of
demarcate it like that.

481
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,900
Lots of effort.
Let's decision-making 6, not

482
00:24:31,900 --> 00:24:33,400
easy.
You still have to go and you

483
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,900
know comb data together.
You have to combine it, right

484
00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:38,600
things.
And then even some elements of

485
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,600
creativity.
I think those will certainly get

486
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,100
replaced by aii, right?
And that that impact will be

487
00:24:44,100 --> 00:24:46,700
across the board.
It will impact writers.

488
00:24:46,700 --> 00:24:49,200
It will impact, you know,
marketing folks.

489
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,600
It's gonna impact Engineers,
it's gone.

490
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,500
In fact, you know, the business
development folks.

491
00:24:54,500 --> 00:24:57,200
It's going to impact
cybersecurity for but that

492
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,400
element we are just talking
about in some sense you know,

493
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,600
automating away.
And then adding away some of the

494
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,800
things that are complex today.
So simple workflow automation

495
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,700
conduit.
But you know, it can be replaced

496
00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:11,300
with, you know, an AI engine
that can do that heavy lifting

497
00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:13,600
and also put things together and
generate stuff for you, right?

498
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,900
Which were already kind of seen
with a lot of generative AI.

499
00:25:16,500 --> 00:25:18,900
So I think that is certainly
going to happen, right?

500
00:25:18,900 --> 00:25:22,700
And it's that, that impact might
be quite spread And we'll start

501
00:25:22,700 --> 00:25:25,400
seeing that quite rapidly across
Industries and you know, that

502
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,200
that itself might drive some
fear, but I don't think we are

503
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,400
going towards a, I taking over
humans anytime soon, right?

504
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,100
Like, I, I doubt we are anywhere
close to it.

505
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,600
Actually, I have repeated it on
the show multiple times because,

506
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,700
you know, every I think every
now and then I used to see these

507
00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:47,000
articles stream media.
They are very good at this in,

508
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,400
you know, throwing these very
catchy title.

509
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,300
So people just click You can go
there and then I repeat it like

510
00:25:54,300 --> 00:25:59,100
guys, like at the end of the day
the AIG - A I specifically chat

511
00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:02,400
GPT and barred from Google.
Now they don't act by

512
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,800
themselves.
They need someone to give them a

513
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,000
prompt to they can act and you
know like just to simplify it a

514
00:26:08,008 --> 00:26:11,800
little bit so something like you
know, dot AI, which is your own

515
00:26:12,300 --> 00:26:16,100
company, again, it requires some
input and it requires some human

516
00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:19,800
interaction to it, so it can go
and do what it's supposed to do.

517
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:27,700
So, this is why On the long run
as you said until we have a, a

518
00:26:27,700 --> 00:26:32,700
machine that can think, you
know, reasoning we will not have

519
00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:34,400
this.
And honestly speaking someone

520
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,100
who started his career in a Data
Center and you know, and in

521
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:43,200
behind the keyboard and the
screen, I wish I had charged EPT

522
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,000
at that time because it would
save me.

523
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,300
A lot of times I could focus on,
for example, thinking, okay, as

524
00:26:49,300 --> 00:26:53,500
I system admin or a security
analyst, How I can contribute to

525
00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:58,600
my, you know, the character
place I work in increasing

526
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,400
number of, I don't know, maybe
customers or I can increase

527
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,800
their revenue, even if they are
nonprofit, how I can, you know,

528
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,700
make these guys have more
visibility in the market from it

529
00:27:07,700 --> 00:27:10,200
perspective.
So, I have to agree with you

530
00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:13,700
Shashank hundred percent.
Now, you mentioned a couple of

531
00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:16,800
things and I don't know how I
will try to make it into one

532
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,900
question, but chiefly, if you
want to break it down, like you

533
00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:24,000
mentioned ransomware, right?
And then we met we touch base on

534
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,500
the AI and we talked about the
board just last week, I shared

535
00:27:28,500 --> 00:27:31,200
that also that episode where
there was an article saying

536
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:36,000
finally CEOs are understanding
the real strengths of ransomware

537
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,500
right now.
We have a i how long it would

538
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:43,300
take until you know, the board
would understand.

539
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,800
Oh, hey, like we need to invest
in a I power tools.

540
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,500
Not only for, you know, the use
cases where that we see.

541
00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:56,300
On day to day basis, but also
to, you know, make our security

542
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,700
defenses much stronger by
getting the.

543
00:28:00,700 --> 00:28:04,900
I do you think we will have to
wait long time until the board?

544
00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:09,000
Because what I hear till now,
unfortunately the board they say

545
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,300
yeah we know that there is a
risk out there.

546
00:28:11,300 --> 00:28:15,800
Ransomware is the most you know
famous one now DDOS attacks and

547
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,000
so on.
They said but you know what,

548
00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:20,600
okay until we get it we'll think
about it.

549
00:28:20,700 --> 00:28:22,800
Do you think we will?
We'll have the same thing with

550
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,700
the adopting AI.
It's a good question, and I

551
00:28:26,700 --> 00:28:28,700
will, you know, give my two
cents again.

552
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,100
We don't know, right?
We'll see the future unfolds

553
00:28:31,100 --> 00:28:32,300
should all learn together,
right?

554
00:28:32,300 --> 00:28:35,600
When that happens.
But just, you know, having an

555
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,400
understanding of the landscape
and, you know, having seen how

556
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:44,000
company leadership and boards
and you know CEOs have been sort

557
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:44,900
of adapting.
Right.

558
00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:48,400
And evolving over the years.
There are, there are such a

559
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,600
three or four underlying factors
that I think would be better to

560
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:56,300
kind of understand a bit more.
And, you know, that might then I

561
00:28:56,300 --> 00:29:00,500
guess allow us to project or
allow us to guess you know, how

562
00:29:00,500 --> 00:29:03,400
soon the I adoption could be at
that level right or how

563
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,200
enthusiastic would they be about
it?

564
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,200
So I think the first way to
think about this is you know,

565
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,600
how popular has a particular
concept or technology become

566
00:29:14,300 --> 00:29:16,200
from a day-to-day life
standpoint, right.

567
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,400
So it's one thing to think of it
from your corporate

568
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,200
decision-making standpoint.
Then another where you know,

569
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,000
it's become part of common life,
right?

570
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,900
And so if you encounter that,
That every day in your life,

571
00:29:27,300 --> 00:29:29,700
with your family, with your
personal life, you know with

572
00:29:29,700 --> 00:29:32,400
your friends I have a feeling
that it does impact your

573
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,800
thinking right.
Whatever role you may be in,

574
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,100
right?
And which is why we saw the

575
00:29:37,100 --> 00:29:40,800
story play out with let's say
social media adoption, right?

576
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,500
Like if you go back 10 years, 15
years back, most Enterprise

577
00:29:44,500 --> 00:29:47,100
CEOs, would say, hey, we don't
need to do any social media, you

578
00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:49,000
know, that is meant for
consumers stuff, right?

579
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,900
Like, especially Enterprise P2P
Centric, cos right?

580
00:29:52,900 --> 00:29:54,200
Like, they were just rule it
out.

581
00:29:55,100 --> 00:29:58,000
Very soon.
What ended up happening was all

582
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,500
the influencers.
All the real, you know, sort of

583
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,900
decisions were getting impacted
by what people were picking up a

584
00:30:05,900 --> 00:30:07,700
tree in social media, right?
Conversations.

585
00:30:07,700 --> 00:30:10,400
Like, this and podcasts right
things that were being discussed

586
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,300
on Twitter, on Reddit, you know,
any individual blog posts,

587
00:30:14,300 --> 00:30:15,400
right?
And so on so forth.

588
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:16,100
Right?
LinkedIn.

589
00:30:16,100 --> 00:30:19,400
So, you know, those venues which
initially the CEOs kind of

590
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,900
discounted soon became primary
platform for them to engage

591
00:30:22,900 --> 00:30:24,900
with, right?
And at multiple levels.

592
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,800
You know, to engage with from a
customer success standpoint to

593
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,000
engage which from an
understanding of the market

594
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,500
standpoint to engage with from a
messaging standpoint to engage

595
00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:37,800
with from a standpoint of, you
know, also driving influence,

596
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,600
right?
And so similarly I feel like

597
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,000
what has happened with AI is
it's got some, you know,

598
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,000
interesting Tailwind out here.
And, you know, some help from

599
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,300
all the buzz that has been
created because of chat g b d.

600
00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:56,400
So, you know, to be just again
up front - I don't believe Chad

601
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,400
GPT is as awesome as cool as its
projected to be.

602
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,700
It is fantastic.
You know, I don't mean to

603
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,400
Discount.
All the great work that has been

604
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,400
done.
The new language models LM is,

605
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,400
is is outstanding for sure.
It's bringing together years of

606
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,500
research with Transformers and
attention and other kinds of

607
00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:15,900
work that has happened in the
world of the eye and kind of

608
00:31:15,908 --> 00:31:18,400
packaged beautifully.
So you can a, you know, a lay

609
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,800
man, a common person could get
their hands on it and, you know,

610
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,000
enjoy the power of the eye right
on.

611
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,200
Like a lot of the previous one.
Which we are just restricted to

612
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,500
researchers, you know, within
company limits.

613
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,900
And so I think that has made it
common Jog and not today

614
00:31:31,900 --> 00:31:34,900
everybody from a student to a
common person know, you're in a

615
00:31:34,900 --> 00:31:38,300
non Tech person has started
talking about Ai and with our

616
00:31:38,700 --> 00:31:41,600
chat G, PT and language models
and what have you read?

617
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,900
Like these words are becoming
commonly used so that I feel

618
00:31:44,900 --> 00:31:47,500
will definitely influence the
COS right when their friends

619
00:31:47,500 --> 00:31:50,300
talk about it when the family's
talk about it, when they see it

620
00:31:50,300 --> 00:31:53,500
in the newspapers on the hear
about it on TV, they feel like

621
00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:56,300
well what am I doing as Leader
in my company, right?

622
00:31:56,300 --> 00:31:59,000
Like what am I doing in terms of
the I right?

623
00:31:59,300 --> 00:32:01,800
So I think definitely that will
help you know just broadly in

624
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:03,700
terms of AI adoption.
So that's one thing.

625
00:32:04,100 --> 00:32:07,000
Now of course when we get more
specific in terms of cyber will

626
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,200
that translate to Ai and cyber
investment?

627
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,400
I think that's the second part
of the puzzle, right?

628
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,000
Like the second part of the
puzzle, really is the so far

629
00:32:15,100 --> 00:32:18,400
right Eve until very recently.
And even today, for many

630
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,000
companies cyber is, is kind of
looked at in the same light that

631
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,000
you would look at insurance,
right?

632
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,100
Or some kind of Roll.
Exactly right.

633
00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:28,200
Where the idea is?
I'm going to buy that because

634
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,000
well I don't want to be, you
know, left out in the cold in

635
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:35,600
case disaster, strikes me.
But the funny part is that most

636
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,900
people assume that even if
disaster strikes me it's not

637
00:32:38,900 --> 00:32:41,000
going to be me.
It's got to be someone else,

638
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,000
right?
So if you ask any see your, you

639
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,300
know, even if they are unaware
of how get their security

640
00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:49,600
posture is, but you can say,
hey, what do you think is your

641
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:55,200
chances of being attacked by
ransomware or, you know, you I'm

642
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,800
having a substantial loss
because of a cyberattack, I'm

643
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,600
fairly confident from all my
conversations over the years

644
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,700
that they will probably discount
it down.

645
00:33:03,700 --> 00:33:05,900
You know, most CEOs will say,
well, I don't think the risk is

646
00:33:05,900 --> 00:33:08,300
that much, right?
I think we've got a good team

647
00:33:08,300 --> 00:33:10,800
and we're on top of it, and we
have most things covered, right?

648
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,300
And if you need to do more, we
will look at it in the future,

649
00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:14,900
right?
So the as you rightly said, they

650
00:33:14,908 --> 00:33:17,400
will kind of point it out right,
like, yeah, we'll see when it

651
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,600
happens.
Now, that of course, is changing

652
00:33:21,700 --> 00:33:24,800
with every news that becomes
more visible.

653
00:33:24,900 --> 00:33:28,200
And very much of face of these
leaders, right?

654
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,400
We like when, when the next
competitor or the, you know, the

655
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,900
neighboring, large Enterprise
that you look up to, right?

656
00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:37,100
Like when they start getting
attack, when they start getting

657
00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:40,800
hacked, I think that's when the
kind of, you know, the awareness

658
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,000
about this suddenly becomes a
lot more, right?

659
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,600
Because then you start worrying,
you start feeling that it has

660
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,300
hit close to home, you know what
I mean?

661
00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:51,900
Like now it's really personal.
Like yeah, I know that company

662
00:33:51,900 --> 00:33:53,700
and, you know, I know those
people and they were smart

663
00:33:53,700 --> 00:33:55,900
people and they were hit, well,
maybe Could be hit as well,

664
00:33:55,900 --> 00:33:57,500
right?
So now you start sort of, you

665
00:33:57,500 --> 00:34:00,600
know, empathizing a bit more
with that problem space and that

666
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,000
has happened.
Because, you know, we've been

667
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,400
seeing that month-on-month,
right?

668
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,000
Like every month, every day we
start seeing more and more

669
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,100
stories of different types of
attacks, different types of

670
00:34:09,100 --> 00:34:11,400
losses.
And then last, but not the least

671
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,199
consequences of also increase,
right?

672
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:15,199
So, you know, if you start
thinking about it, you know, a

673
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:17,699
few years back, they would be
hacks attacks, you would put a

674
00:34:17,699 --> 00:34:20,800
little press release out.
You would put a little apology

675
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,800
out and you know job done move
on, right?

676
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,300
You do the next thing.
He right.

677
00:34:25,300 --> 00:34:29,600
But what has translated now is
the monetary loss reputation,

678
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,699
loss brand loss has really
Amplified, it has just gone from

679
00:34:33,699 --> 00:34:36,699
it, being a minor headache to a
major problem, right?

680
00:34:36,699 --> 00:34:39,400
Like, you know, leaders have
lost their jobs companies, have

681
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:43,100
lost their statuses, their
customers and some have lost

682
00:34:43,100 --> 00:34:45,600
substantial amounts of money,
you know, millions of dollars of

683
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,000
fine and, you know, stuff like
that.

684
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,300
So I think that is going to
really play A Part as well in

685
00:34:50,699 --> 00:34:54,000
becoming more conscious becoming
more proactive about cyber and

686
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,200
you know, some are already Going
at it as almost a competitive

687
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,100
Advantage where they are saying,
like, hey, if I have a good

688
00:35:00,100 --> 00:35:02,900
cyber pasture, right overall?
Good cyber control.

689
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,600
It gives me the same advantage
that I have.

690
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,200
If I have a fantastic resilient
scalable infrastructure, right?

691
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:10,800
Because why else do we put
money?

692
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,400
Let's say, in a resilient
scalable infrastructure because,

693
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,200
you know, at the underlying
motivation is that I'd be able

694
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,100
to service more customers that
we will be, keep them happy, you

695
00:35:19,100 --> 00:35:22,800
know, grow at my face and, you
know, outsmart all the other

696
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:24,700
competition, right?
I'll be ahead of the game.

697
00:35:25,300 --> 00:35:29,100
And I think that some digital
transformation leaders and some,

698
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:30,800
you know, sort of
forward-looking CEOs are

699
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,700
beginning to think in that
light, right, where they are

700
00:35:32,700 --> 00:35:36,300
saying, hey, if I also have a
very strong cyber pasture,

701
00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:37,700
right?
I have a very strong central

702
00:35:37,700 --> 00:35:39,700
nervous system resilient
infrastructure.

703
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,200
I think I would be able to do a
lot more digital business, which

704
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,700
is really where most of the
business is going as opposed to

705
00:35:45,700 --> 00:35:47,600
my competition supposed to my
industry.

706
00:35:48,100 --> 00:35:50,100
And, you know, therefore I will
be, you know, the leader of the

707
00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:51,700
pack, right?
So, I think once these three

708
00:35:51,700 --> 00:35:55,600
different sentiments come
through one is He had becoming

709
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,800
more sort of a common word know,
it's already kind of happening

710
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,900
cyber becoming less of an
insurance and more of a, you

711
00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:05,500
know, important choice, you
know, moving from, you know, you

712
00:36:05,500 --> 00:36:08,100
know, I just need to have
because I checked the box as

713
00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:11,200
opposed to consciously making
that decision to have it and

714
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,300
then third, of course, you know,
leaders making it as a part of

715
00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:17,900
investment just like you do with
other kinds of resilient

716
00:36:17,900 --> 00:36:19,700
infrastructure and seeing the
benefits of it, right?

717
00:36:19,700 --> 00:36:21,200
And then others kind of
following.

718
00:36:21,500 --> 00:36:24,100
So once these three things kind
of come together, I think yes

719
00:36:24,100 --> 00:36:27,400
the, you know, the Cyber and AI
emergency is, you know,

720
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,500
definitely on the cards.
And I do think that it's sooner

721
00:36:30,500 --> 00:36:34,300
than we think.
I agree with you a society

722
00:36:34,300 --> 00:36:37,200
because it's something that they
cannot ignore anymore.

723
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,600
Because as you said, when they
will start to see it going

724
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:43,900
around them, of course, they
will have to, you know, say okay

725
00:36:43,900 --> 00:36:49,000
we need to adopt this so advice
I would say if you are a an

726
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,600
executive listening to this take
action or at least start to talk

727
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,800
to your team as soon as possible
before.

728
00:36:54,900 --> 00:36:57,400
It's too late.
Because what's happening in this

729
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,300
space, both in the Cyber and in
the AI and Tech in general.

730
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,500
Maybe before if you miss two,
three years, that's fine.

731
00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:08,200
And then you can catch up.
But now if you miss a couple of

732
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,600
weeks, you might be missing a
huge opportunity.

733
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:17,500
Now, I want to shift gears a
little bit if you don't mind and

734
00:37:17,500 --> 00:37:20,800
just act like you've been,
you've been part of several high

735
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,400
growth compact, right?
And some of them they were like

736
00:37:24,100 --> 00:37:27,800
very big Established companies
and that same time you work.

737
00:37:28,100 --> 00:37:30,800
Now you have your own startup
and you are part of other

738
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,700
startups like mechanics and
others.

739
00:37:33,500 --> 00:37:37,900
How do you compare?
You know, the way you as a

740
00:37:37,908 --> 00:37:42,300
leader, you lead teams in
startups versus leading teams in

741
00:37:42,300 --> 00:37:46,500
a established company.
I'll just fantastic question

742
00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:48,900
again.
I think that two different

743
00:37:48,900 --> 00:37:52,300
worlds, right?
So the way I like to think about

744
00:37:52,300 --> 00:37:55,600
it is that and again, start up.
I think, is it?

745
00:37:55,608 --> 00:37:58,800
It broadly used words, I'm going
to break it down even further,

746
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,600
right?
So this is our tubs which are

747
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,600
like barely getting started, you
know, which I think in Silicon

748
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,400
Valley job and we love to call
it the 021 Journey, right?

749
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:07,100
Thanks.
Yes.

750
00:38:07,100 --> 00:38:10,600
Yes book 02 fun.
That is kind of, you know, even

751
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,900
popularized it.
So there is the beginning at the

752
00:38:13,900 --> 00:38:16,900
very beginning, Like when you,
when you go from a concept to

753
00:38:16,900 --> 00:38:20,700
accompany the 021 stain, right?
And then, there are startups

754
00:38:20,700 --> 00:38:23,000
that are at that one phase, so
to speak.

755
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:24,900
But, you know, then they're
scaling the become a proper

756
00:38:24,900 --> 00:38:27,100
Enterprise, right?
Their Journey for grow, their

757
00:38:27,100 --> 00:38:30,200
Journey towards becoming a, be a
public company and, you know,

758
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,100
becoming further and farther
there.

759
00:38:32,100 --> 00:38:33,300
Right.
And then, of course, the third

760
00:38:33,300 --> 00:38:38,000
part is, while you're part of a
larger company, I think that,

761
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,900
you know, all these three.
If you made the 0 to 1, the

762
00:38:40,900 --> 00:38:45,600
growing company and the logic
company as a leader And also as

763
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,100
a member I think your roles and
your expectations are very

764
00:38:49,100 --> 00:38:53,000
different, right?
So what happens is that when you

765
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,500
are in a zero to one phase you
really almost run like a sports

766
00:38:57,500 --> 00:39:00,500
team to some level.
I feel like you know, that's the

767
00:39:00,500 --> 00:39:02,100
best analogy.
I can think of, right?

768
00:39:02,100 --> 00:39:06,000
Like you need High performers,
you need, you know, a bunch of

769
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,100
high performers are small team
to kind of gel.

770
00:39:08,100 --> 00:39:11,300
Well, teamwork is very important
because, you know, one or two

771
00:39:11,300 --> 00:39:14,800
members, not playing the part,
can just spoil the game.

772
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,800
Writes, the team sport.
And then the third part is, you

773
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,200
got to move fast, right, and
improve, and learn fast as a

774
00:39:21,208 --> 00:39:23,200
team, right?
And then, at the same time,

775
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:24,700
sometimes you need generalists,
right?

776
00:39:24,700 --> 00:39:27,700
You need people, who can wear
multiple hats, do more things.

777
00:39:28,300 --> 00:39:30,000
Similarly, the same thing for a
leader, right?

778
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,600
Like as a leader like what we
end up, what I end up doing

779
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,800
today and I've seen other
fantastic, you know sort of 0 to

780
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:37,400
1.
Cos do the same thing or you

781
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,800
know, me as a leader and zero to
one of the journeys as well.

782
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,800
You know attempt to do or at
least I'll get to do is that

783
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,700
where you want to lean on?
Nice.

784
00:39:44,900 --> 00:39:47,900
A smooth transition on a
day-to-day basis between the

785
00:39:47,900 --> 00:39:49,800
player coach.
If you may write, you got to be

786
00:39:49,808 --> 00:39:52,000
the player, you got to do your
things, you got to roll your

787
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,100
sleeves up, right?
Whether it means, you know,

788
00:39:55,100 --> 00:39:57,900
being the first salesperson
effectively, which I am kind of,

789
00:39:57,900 --> 00:40:00,500
you know, in some sense, that's
what I've been doing to even,

790
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:03,800
you know, slinging code, if it's
required to, you know, going and

791
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:08,200
doing your Regulatory Compliance
activity to interviewing to

792
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,600
even, you know, - dating on your
least.

793
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:12,700
What have you write?
Like, what I'm saying, is every

794
00:40:12,700 --> 00:40:15,700
day's operational activity.
There is the Player model.

795
00:40:15,700 --> 00:40:17,600
Where you behave?
Exactly.

796
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,400
Like every other member of the
team is doing, right?

797
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,700
You build to manage you complete
the tasks.

798
00:40:23,700 --> 00:40:25,300
So that's basically the partner,
right?

799
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,000
But at the same time, there's a
second part of the puzzle which

800
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,400
is really, I would call more of
a coach model.

801
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,800
And, you know, I'm talking about
a coach was an inspirational,

802
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,700
quote, not a good choice,
screaming from the sidelines

803
00:40:35,700 --> 00:40:37,700
asking the players.
They're not playing well, right?

804
00:40:37,700 --> 00:40:42,100
So I feel like, you know, as a
as a leader, as a good sort of a

805
00:40:42,100 --> 00:40:44,700
leader in the zero to one phase,
I think the important part.

806
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,900
Is to inspire your team, right
to get them excited to remind

807
00:40:48,900 --> 00:40:52,100
them of the, the North Star
right from time to time because

808
00:40:52,100 --> 00:40:55,600
it is extremely draining.
In early-stage startups of

809
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,900
people can be very consumed in
what they're doing and sometimes

810
00:40:57,900 --> 00:41:00,900
they tend to forget the larger
pictures of pull them out of it.

811
00:41:00,900 --> 00:41:02,800
Let them dream big.
Let them look at the larger

812
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,400
picture, right?
So you definitely have to play

813
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,200
that card and it's pretty much
like playing a game, right?

814
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:10,700
It's almost like every day is
almost like playing one tiny

815
00:41:10,700 --> 00:41:12,300
game towards the big tournament.
Right?

816
00:41:12,300 --> 00:41:15,100
And you're the winning the
tournament is the Should have

817
00:41:15,108 --> 00:41:18,300
reaching that one fails read the
0 to 1 is just a bunch of games

818
00:41:18,300 --> 00:41:21,300
that you play every game, some
you win some, you lose.

819
00:41:21,300 --> 00:41:24,400
But you know, overall if you
come stronger, you know, you

820
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,600
reach the one face with
confidence, right?

821
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,300
So that's usually the 021
Journey, right?

822
00:41:29,300 --> 00:41:31,800
The classic enlisted Journey.
Now if you start going towards

823
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:36,400
the growth stage companies, as a
leader, specially your task is

824
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,400
now to begin to start setting
some processes, you know and

825
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,900
I've also been you know lucky
enough to be in those roles, you

826
00:41:42,900 --> 00:41:44,700
know, like I mentioned with
Medallion was a classic example.

827
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,900
A love that, you know, there
were two 500 people company when

828
00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:49,500
I joined them, they ended up
becoming a few thousand people

829
00:41:49,900 --> 00:41:53,000
revenues grew very rapidly and
about 50 plus or so million.

830
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,100
It was in order to help bring
them 300 million.

831
00:41:55,100 --> 00:41:58,200
So, you know, it was always like
a super growth on all fronts,

832
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,800
you know, the revenue front
organization front and there, I

833
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,600
think the leadership
expectations really were around

834
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,900
setting processes to scale,
right?

835
00:42:06,900 --> 00:42:08,900
Yeah, the key word being scale,
right?

836
00:42:08,900 --> 00:42:10,700
Like, what kind of incentives
can you set?

837
00:42:10,700 --> 00:42:12,900
What kind of objective measures?
Can you set?

838
00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:14,600
How can you Empower other
people?

839
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,500
What organizational structure is
Reich, you know, for the company

840
00:42:18,500 --> 00:42:21,800
to thrive or how repeatability
can be done, what can be

841
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,800
automated out?
You know what kind of talent

842
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,000
needs to be brought in and a lot
of it obviously goes towards

843
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:28,700
team building, right?
So I think like that definitely

844
00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:33,900
becomes your primary priority.
Now with larger companies, you

845
00:42:33,900 --> 00:42:36,600
know, again it becomes
interesting and complex, you

846
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,000
know, some of this, of course,
the growth phase activities

847
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,200
continues through into larger
companies because some larger

848
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,500
companies also keep growing for
lots of I'm even after they

849
00:42:45,500 --> 00:42:47,800
become public and big, you know,
which we have seen with so many

850
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,000
of these Silicon Valley, Giants
themselves, right?

851
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:51,500
Yeah.
And they have a similar sort of

852
00:42:51,500 --> 00:42:54,500
a flavor, but also, there are
other aspects with logical music

853
00:42:54,500 --> 00:42:57,300
come in, right, like where
there's also an aspect of

854
00:42:57,300 --> 00:42:59,200
stability.
Now, you have to start balancing

855
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,800
between scaling growing and
stability because you have a

856
00:43:01,808 --> 00:43:05,800
large customer base, you know,
you have a reputation to keep,

857
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,900
right?
You got a team that, you know,

858
00:43:08,900 --> 00:43:11,600
may not be as inspired as they
are when you are in a

859
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,600
fast-growing, you know, building
something new face, but you

860
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:18,200
still Need to keep them
motivated to sometimes.

861
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,200
You know, obviously most of the
times, in fact, you are now

862
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:24,600
looking at International offices
and, you know, cross-border

863
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,300
geographies and making sure that
rhythm is manage, there's

864
00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:30,500
fairness in the company, you
know, that they were able to

865
00:43:30,500 --> 00:43:33,700
scale Beyond, you know, one
location if you may or one

866
00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:37,200
product and then, you know, I
think a lot of it also ends up

867
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:42,000
becoming in a way I would say is
managing the aspirations and the

868
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,400
politics that does creep up in
those large.

869
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:45,400
Ization.
Right?

870
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,600
Like you have to kind of have to
figure that out, right?

871
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:50,200
And I'm not even saying that in
a negative way.

872
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,300
Don't get me wrong.
The animal there are some places

873
00:43:52,300 --> 00:43:55,400
which become very toxic and
difficult to manage but even in

874
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,900
the best of places which are
very fair and you know, which

875
00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:02,600
are very upfront.
I think like just the fact that

876
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,000
there are so many people and
complexity, I think there is

877
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,800
definitely an aspect of managing
expectations, managing politics,

878
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,600
you know, managing messaging,
you know, managing the overall

879
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:17,100
sort of scope of If you mandate
and so those become much larger

880
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:19,800
pieces of the puzzle and as a
leader, as a manager, if you're

881
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:21,600
able to do that effectively,
right?

882
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:25,200
And keep multiple sets of people
happy and you know, keep the

883
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,500
Rhythm and grow then I think.
Yeah that's that's success in

884
00:44:27,500 --> 00:44:33,000
the larger Enterprise we?
Yeah and I think also maybe we

885
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,200
could add transparency as well,
right?

886
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:40,200
Like and Intercultural because
we discussed this also and in

887
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:44,600
one episode that they think this
is one of the most have out.

888
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:49,100
Especially when you go from what
you mentioned, the 0212, you

889
00:44:49,100 --> 00:44:51,500
know, the growing phase and
later on.

890
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:56,600
Now, you mentioned a lot of the
startups, right?

891
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,300
That you were part.
The Black nutanix Elementary,

892
00:45:00,300 --> 00:45:07,600
Medallia stack rocks, which one
you can say it really reshape

893
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:13,600
the way, you know, you used to.
You used to look at and you felt

894
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:17,000
you know, like this was We a
life-changing moment for you.

895
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,700
I think each one of them dead in
a way, so they all have

896
00:45:21,700 --> 00:45:24,200
different impacts.
I mean, just to go back and just

897
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,400
highlight a bit.
I think, you know, when, when I

898
00:45:26,408 --> 00:45:30,800
became part of nutanix, I mean,
I was an individual contributor.

899
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,100
Really, you know, when I started
out, they were a small team.

900
00:45:33,100 --> 00:45:35,100
They were quite literally three
people in a room type of a

901
00:45:35,108 --> 00:45:36,400
company.
You know, they were very small

902
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,700
company.
It was still a concept just

903
00:45:38,700 --> 00:45:42,900
emerging with the initial
product and the founders were

904
00:45:42,900 --> 00:45:44,900
extremely smart.
You know, there are some of the

905
00:45:44,900 --> 00:45:48,600
smartest people here in Silicon
Valley and I think I definitely

906
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,900
learned a lot in terms of great
and in terms of focus and in

907
00:45:51,900 --> 00:45:54,500
terms of, you know, how to build
a company, right?

908
00:45:54,500 --> 00:45:56,700
So that was definitely learnings
that I took away from the

909
00:45:56,708 --> 00:46:00,100
experience, I really loved it.
I think like even today some of

910
00:46:00,100 --> 00:46:04,100
the stuff that I try to apply in
my day-to-day is certainly

911
00:46:04,100 --> 00:46:06,900
things that I learnt, you know,
over ten years back.

912
00:46:06,900 --> 00:46:09,100
Now in that Journey at nutanix,
right?

913
00:46:09,100 --> 00:46:12,900
Which certainly started laying
the foundations for who I ended

914
00:46:12,900 --> 00:46:15,600
up becoming right.
And then when I went to

915
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,700
Elementary, I think Alimentum
was a very different story.

916
00:46:18,700 --> 00:46:21,800
You know, I was responsible to
drive all of engineering

917
00:46:23,100 --> 00:46:26,400
Elementary.
I honestly learned a lot about

918
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,100
hiring.
I think, you know, it was about

919
00:46:29,100 --> 00:46:32,300
or building hiring the best
talent that was my primary

920
00:46:32,300 --> 00:46:34,000
focus, and I did a bunch of
other things.

921
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,100
You know, obviously architecture
product strategy, company

922
00:46:37,100 --> 00:46:40,100
strategy, and the ups and downs
that happen with a start-up on a

923
00:46:40,108 --> 00:46:42,900
day-to-day basis.
But I think one of my biggest

924
00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:45,900
learning experiences, there was,
you know, oh, just attracting

925
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,900
specially like sort of, you
know, TR one Talent, right?

926
00:46:49,900 --> 00:46:52,800
Insulin, which is always very
difficult to attract because

927
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,100
those are the ones that are not
looking.

928
00:46:55,100 --> 00:46:57,400
Those are the ones that have
most amount of choices, you

929
00:46:57,408 --> 00:46:58,400
know.
And those are the ones that you

930
00:46:58,400 --> 00:46:59,700
want to hire, right?
And those are the ones,

931
00:46:59,700 --> 00:47:01,200
everybody else also wants to
hire.

932
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:03,900
So it's a very easy one, right?
You're almost like doing

933
00:47:03,900 --> 00:47:07,300
storytelling and concept selling
morning to evening to convince

934
00:47:07,300 --> 00:47:08,900
them to join you and you're
right.

935
00:47:08,900 --> 00:47:13,000
So I think I certainly learned a
lot of that from there.

936
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,200
It was very rewarding.
I also love Again, the

937
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,600
leadership there, the other
people there was an incredibly

938
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,500
talented team and, you know,
again, I think there was a lot

939
00:47:20,500 --> 00:47:24,200
of learning all around right now
from Medallia standpoint.

940
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,500
I think they were multiple
things in my daily at the

941
00:47:26,500 --> 00:47:28,300
definitely shaped me.
I loved that company.

942
00:47:28,300 --> 00:47:30,500
You know, I think I made all
sorts on of great friends there.

943
00:47:30,500 --> 00:47:33,800
Just like I had dead in other
places as well prior to that in

944
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:35,600
even before all this startup
Journeys.

945
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:39,700
But Medallia really in some
sense to me was an eye-opener

946
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:41,400
right?
And what I mean by eye-opener

947
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,900
was most companies that I had
been in till then Or my

948
00:47:44,900 --> 00:47:47,300
understanding of start of post
always about.

949
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:49,900
Yeah, you build some cool
awesome Tech.

950
00:47:50,300 --> 00:47:53,000
Then you find your early
customers, you know, then you

951
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,800
build a formidable company and,
you know, then you become big

952
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:57,800
and large and, you know, then
you go public, right?

953
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,800
Like that was my sort of mental
model for a start-up.

954
00:48:01,700 --> 00:48:04,500
When I came to Medallia, I was
very impressed by the fact that

955
00:48:04,500 --> 00:48:07,300
the founders had really
bootstrapped the company for the

956
00:48:07,300 --> 00:48:09,700
first many years and different
different.

957
00:48:09,700 --> 00:48:12,000
In fact profitable, right?
And they were very close to the

958
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:13,600
customers.
They understood the problem,

959
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,000
really well, they had Close
relationship with their

960
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,200
customers and the customers
really love them, they were in

961
00:48:19,208 --> 00:48:22,300
love with the that the team, the
product, you know, they, they

962
00:48:22,308 --> 00:48:26,800
really doted on them, right?
And the task, when I had entered

963
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,300
in their Journey, it was all
about scaling them to the

964
00:48:29,300 --> 00:48:30,900
Enterprise level and Beyond.
Right?

965
00:48:30,900 --> 00:48:35,000
And I think, what I really saw
was the story was in some sense

966
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,700
flipped in, you know, most other
startups.

967
00:48:37,700 --> 00:48:40,100
The story was, let's build an
awesome product then we'll find

968
00:48:40,100 --> 00:48:41,800
customers.
And here it was more like, hey,

969
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,000
they have customers who love the
product because As we give

970
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,900
value, even if it's not, you
know, a scalable or as tech

971
00:48:47,900 --> 00:48:51,600
savvy in the beginning, but we
can add more capabilities on top

972
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:53,900
of it so that it can become
really where it should go,

973
00:48:54,300 --> 00:48:57,300
right?
So a lot of innovation in

974
00:48:57,300 --> 00:48:59,300
Medallia really happened.
Thanks to the customers.

975
00:48:59,300 --> 00:49:02,400
It was really based very closely
working with customers, it was

976
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,500
always a very customer first
company, right?

977
00:49:04,500 --> 00:49:06,900
Like in some cells, like what we
talked about Amazon being a

978
00:49:06,908 --> 00:49:09,600
customer first company.
I think, Mmm Italia kind of

979
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,200
lived that same dream, right
side.

980
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:13,200
Certainly like influenced me in
a big way, right?

981
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,400
And I since then, you know, I
always thought.

982
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,000
So, just having done prior
things also in my life, but I

983
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:19,800
think that was like the
reinforcements, right?

984
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,000
Like, if you're building a
business, it's all about

985
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:23,700
customers.
Everything else comes second

986
00:49:23,700 --> 00:49:27,200
rights and the present, right?
So, I think that was reinforced

987
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:29,300
there and then last, but not the
least, stack rocks.

988
00:49:29,300 --> 00:49:32,100
Again, was a very interesting
Journey with stack rocks.

989
00:49:32,100 --> 00:49:35,100
My biggest learning was tagged,
Knox was in some sense.

990
00:49:35,300 --> 00:49:38,500
You know, again, in a space it
was a security company, you

991
00:49:38,500 --> 00:49:42,600
know, and I think we were again
among the first few companies in

992
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:46,000
that space container security or
You know what we have today of

993
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,900
cwpp, see nap and all these good
acronyms didn't exist back in

994
00:49:49,900 --> 00:49:53,000
the day, right?
And so I think, at that point in

995
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:54,600
time we were investing a lot of
energy.

996
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,200
Educating our customers, as much
as you know, providing a

997
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,700
solution to that, right?
And that wasn't easy, but I

998
00:50:00,708 --> 00:50:03,800
think we had the great and we
had the tenacity and we had the

999
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,000
confidence in our, right?
And I think that that dream and

1000
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,200
tenacity and confidence, again
of the founders of the leaders

1001
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,300
out there of the engineers out
there, I think certainly was

1002
00:50:13,300 --> 00:50:16,000
something that, you know, again.
Force my belief in the fact that

1003
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,700
if you really, after solving a
certain problem, if you really

1004
00:50:18,700 --> 00:50:21,900
believe in a certain kind of a
company, nothing should stop

1005
00:50:21,900 --> 00:50:23,500
you, right?
There is no reason for you to at

1006
00:50:23,500 --> 00:50:26,200
least doubt yourself and if
you're doubting yourself well,

1007
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,800
then you know, that's fine.
But then you should step back

1008
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:31,800
and figure out what is it that
you want to double down on,

1009
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:33,300
right?
Like, what is it that you want

1010
00:50:33,300 --> 00:50:35,800
to Rally behind?
So, fighting that way, I kind of

1011
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:38,200
learned and picked up everything
all along the way, and, you

1012
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,900
know, beyond that also, even the
companies that I've advised

1013
00:50:40,900 --> 00:50:43,800
invested in operate, some
pertain and they've been quite a

1014
00:50:43,808 --> 00:50:45,900
few of those also.
In Silicon Valley, I think like,

1015
00:50:45,900 --> 00:50:49,000
every interaction, every day, in
fact, even today, is every

1016
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,700
conversation teaches me,
something like, I might almost

1017
00:50:51,700 --> 00:50:55,700
feel like every conversation I
walk into including today, as I

1018
00:50:55,700 --> 00:50:58,800
walk in with the expectation.
That, hey, I'm going to pick up

1019
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,000
something, some new nuggets
that, hopefully, I can

1020
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:04,400
experiment try and learn from
nice.

1021
00:51:05,100 --> 00:51:07,800
I know Shashank, you also an
advisor, right?

1022
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:14,400
And for many other startups and
if I am, you know, someone who

1023
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:18,300
just you know, came out of
college or I decided to drop

1024
00:51:18,300 --> 00:51:21,400
out, I don't know because this
is that what happened usually in

1025
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:27,000
the valley and I want, you know,
to take the path, should I

1026
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:31,900
start, you know as an engineer
go all after Ike than become a

1027
00:51:31,900 --> 00:51:37,400
be a CTO, one day and then find
an idea try to build it or

1028
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:42,200
should I go with the shortcut
trying to find an idea and build

1029
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:47,200
it today like which one is Is is
more suitable for someone who

1030
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,500
might be now listening or
watching this.

1031
00:51:51,300 --> 00:51:54,800
Yeah, it's it's again your voice
down to individual choice,

1032
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:55,300
right?
There's no.

1033
00:51:55,300 --> 00:51:59,300
Right or wrong answer that the
way I, the way I think about

1034
00:51:59,300 --> 00:52:01,800
this is, you know, and I'll get,
I'll give you my perspective,

1035
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:03,000
right?
It's not a right or wrong

1036
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:07,300
perspective at my perspective, I
feel like, you know, we we as a

1037
00:52:07,308 --> 00:52:12,800
society, tend to get over biased
and attach more weights to the

1038
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,300
winners, right?
Like that's how we as a society

1039
00:52:15,300 --> 00:52:19,100
are, right?
And and as a society we are also

1040
00:52:19,100 --> 00:52:20,900
and it's a good thing that we
are optimistic.

1041
00:52:21,100 --> 00:52:23,900
He also technically known the
fact that hey, there's going to

1042
00:52:23,900 --> 00:52:26,800
be one out of ten winners that
one is me right?

1043
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,100
And the, you know, so therefore
I should just go with exactly

1044
00:52:30,100 --> 00:52:31,400
what the winners do.
Right.

1045
00:52:32,300 --> 00:52:35,100
On the other hand, the reality,
which I think really plays out

1046
00:52:35,100 --> 00:52:38,300
much better.
In, my opinion is a place where

1047
00:52:38,300 --> 00:52:41,200
you allow yourselves the right
kind of preparation.

1048
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:44,800
If you may or the right kind of
preparedness for you to go play

1049
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:46,900
the game, right?
Like going back to my analogy of

1050
00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:50,500
sort of team sport.
I do feel that I think getting

1051
00:52:50,500 --> 00:52:54,700
into To a start-up mode is, is
very similar to getting into

1052
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:58,300
starting a career in music or
trying to go become a

1053
00:52:58,300 --> 00:53:01,300
professional athlete or, you
know, or trying to go get into a

1054
00:53:01,300 --> 00:53:04,000
creative skill.
And why I say that is because

1055
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:05,700
you know it has an element of
risk.

1056
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,200
It has an element of you know
Freedom.

1057
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:12,900
It has an element of innovation
and idea that is going to drive

1058
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:14,600
right?
And you have to uniquely stand

1059
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:18,400
out on your own.
So there I feel like I think

1060
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:22,000
what really helps at least in
the world of Chip is it's better

1061
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:23,200
to try by.
Right?

1062
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,800
So if you can and if you end up
becoming an early engineer in a

1063
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:28,500
start-up, right?
Like for example, it started

1064
00:53:28,500 --> 00:53:31,600
with your calling and you just
graduated from college today.

1065
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:33,600
Well the best choice could be
go.

1066
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,400
Join us start, right?
And what would that do for you?

1067
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:39,400
Is it would do two or three
things, one.

1068
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:40,700
You would get a first-hand
flavor.

1069
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:42,800
You're not reading and at
TechCrunch article, or reading

1070
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,300
in the books.
What a start-up is like, but now

1071
00:53:45,300 --> 00:53:46,400
you are part of a journey,
right?

1072
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:47,900
You're experiencing it every
day, right?

1073
00:53:47,900 --> 00:53:50,500
And you can decide for yourself.
Is that what you want to sign

1074
00:53:50,500 --> 00:53:51,300
up?
Right?

1075
00:53:51,300 --> 00:53:54,500
So the territory, the game
becomes a little more familiar,

1076
00:53:54,500 --> 00:53:55,700
right?
So that's one thing.

1077
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,900
Secondly, as I, you know, always
kind of very firmly, believe

1078
00:53:59,900 --> 00:54:04,400
that, you know, specially those
employees who join in the 021

1079
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:07,400
Journeys, right?
Like the early employees who are

1080
00:54:07,408 --> 00:54:12,300
the young girly employees?
They basically end up becoming

1081
00:54:12,300 --> 00:54:14,700
Future Leaders future Founders,
right?

1082
00:54:14,700 --> 00:54:18,200
And many of these guys have
found those that the first

1083
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:20,400
startup really, to be the
training ground, like, it's a

1084
00:54:20,408 --> 00:54:22,400
very fertile.
Training ground for future

1085
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:24,100
Founders.
Future CEOs?

1086
00:54:24,100 --> 00:54:26,900
Right now, I've had some of that
experience myself.

1087
00:54:26,900 --> 00:54:29,200
And, you know, there are many
stories like that in Silicon

1088
00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:32,700
Valley, you know, the first
engineer or the tenth employee

1089
00:54:32,700 --> 00:54:33,800
or, you know, something like
that.

1090
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:35,400
Go ahead and starting the next
company.

1091
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,200
And in fact, becoming bigger
than the start of that, they

1092
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:41,000
were part of, right?
And so I think like there's

1093
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,800
certainly an element of kind of
learning and growing with it,

1094
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,100
right?
So I certainly encourage that

1095
00:54:47,100 --> 00:54:50,400
the the other part that I do
want to mention is that, you

1096
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,800
know, I stand that, you know,
folklore and just overall

1097
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:57,000
Romanticism has projected this
whole idea of, you know,

1098
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:59,400
dropping out of college and
doing a start-up in becoming

1099
00:54:59,900 --> 00:55:02,600
Mark Zuckerberg or, you know,
one of those has become the, The

1100
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:04,600
Legend of the story.
I had Bill Gates, and Mark

1101
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,500
Zuckerberg for the world or
Steve Jobs, right?

1102
00:55:07,500 --> 00:55:11,800
Like, these guys have become,
you know, kind of God level

1103
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:13,600
figures, right?
In Silicon Valley but I think

1104
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:17,500
for every of those massive
humongous, big figures there are

1105
00:55:17,500 --> 00:55:20,800
equal number of people who have
actually spent a lot of time.

1106
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,000
Getting trained finding their
Rhythm, you know, Finding their

1107
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:25,800
place, right?
And the enough people who have

1108
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,300
gone to college or work for the
companies, you know, and then

1109
00:55:29,300 --> 00:55:31,900
learnt, the things that they
wanted to be prepared for before

1110
00:55:31,900 --> 00:55:34,500
they jumped in, right?
And so, I would lean on that,

1111
00:55:34,500 --> 00:55:37,000
you know, find your calling,
don't just follow it for the

1112
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:40,500
sake of, you know, because it's
fashionable to do, it's better

1113
00:55:40,500 --> 00:55:43,400
to spend time learning.
It's better to spend time

1114
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:47,000
building your confidence.
It's better to spend time, you

1115
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,300
know, being ready for the game,
you know, go play the game, go

1116
00:55:50,300 --> 00:55:53,200
to play the game with
confidence, but, you know, go

1117
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,400
play the game with confidence
once you've practiced hard

1118
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:56,900
enough, right?
I can you feel confident?

1119
00:55:56,900 --> 00:55:59,000
You're going to go win the game.
Yeah.

1120
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:03,800
And I think they would
understand more how to find or

1121
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:07,300
spot problems and how to go
speak to customers later on,

1122
00:56:07,300 --> 00:56:08,800
right?
Absolutely.

1123
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:11,900
I think like those are the in
fact, three things, I would say

1124
00:56:11,900 --> 00:56:13,900
pretty quickly on that
customers.

1125
00:56:13,900 --> 00:56:16,300
Like, most first time people
don't have a sense of customers.

1126
00:56:16,300 --> 00:56:18,800
When you work somewhere, you
understand multiple things about

1127
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:20,800
customers, including customer
success.

1128
00:56:20,900 --> 00:56:24,100
Keeping them happy, you know,
trying to attract them all that

1129
00:56:24,100 --> 00:56:25,800
good stuff, right?
And you're like, you also said

1130
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,100
all the problems, right?
All the problems become

1131
00:56:28,100 --> 00:56:30,500
familiar.
You almost have a, have a sense

1132
00:56:30,500 --> 00:56:32,700
for it.
Now, you understand, you may not

1133
00:56:32,700 --> 00:56:35,600
be able to solve it necessarily
but at least you have a sense of

1134
00:56:35,608 --> 00:56:39,200
how bad can the problem get and
Hina and in a funny way.

1135
00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,100
I think the roller coaster of
early-stage startup kind of

1136
00:56:42,100 --> 00:56:46,000
makes you more even Keel.
And that has definitely happened

1137
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:47,600
for me.
Also, you know, even as an

1138
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,700
experienced person over the
years, I think the more

1139
00:56:50,900 --> 00:56:53,300
Startups, you go through the
more, you kind of take it in the

1140
00:56:53,300 --> 00:56:56,100
stride, you realize that hey I'm
going to start my morning,

1141
00:56:56,100 --> 00:56:59,000
feeling all Jubilee and then top
of the world and by lunch, I

1142
00:56:59,008 --> 00:57:01,200
might feel like the world is
coming to an end and you know, I

1143
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:02,400
might lose my day.
Feeling.

1144
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:04,700
Yeah.
Everything is all good, right?

1145
00:57:04,700 --> 00:57:06,400
And that roller coaster of
emotion.

1146
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:08,300
All right, essentially,
something that you need to get

1147
00:57:08,300 --> 00:57:12,200
comfortable.
Yeah, it's great inside.

1148
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,300
I would say, AB changing, as we
are coming to the end.

1149
00:57:15,300 --> 00:57:19,000
I have a very famous question.
What is the question?

1150
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:23,100
You wish that I asked you?
Well, that's that's an

1151
00:57:23,100 --> 00:57:24,700
interesting one.
I haven't had this before

1152
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:30,600
because it's really a fun one.
I love that when I would say.

1153
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:32,400
I think, you know, one thing I
like to share.

1154
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:34,000
So I'll ask me if you care to
ask you.

1155
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,800
That question is like, you know,
how what what does success look

1156
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:40,400
like for me, you know, success
is something that has Society.

1157
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:42,900
We celebrate a lot.
What does it really mean, right?

1158
00:57:42,900 --> 00:57:44,700
And what does it look like for
you?

1159
00:57:44,700 --> 00:57:46,600
So I think you know, that's
something I would love to ask

1160
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:48,600
you.
Also, in fact counter, if you're

1161
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,100
willing to share and I'd love to
share my two cents on it.

1162
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:53,400
Yeah, Cheryl's.
First and then I will tell you.

1163
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:54,400
Okay?
Perfect?

1164
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:57,000
Yeah absolutely.
So I feel like, you know, over

1165
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:01,200
the years as I've been also you
know growing older and Gathering

1166
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:04,700
more experience.
I have mulled over a lot about

1167
00:58:04,700 --> 00:58:08,600
this whole concept of success.
What exactly is Success, right?

1168
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:11,800
And what is it that we are
targeting and success?

1169
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,000
Of course at every level right
success specially at the

1170
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,100
corporate level that we are
talking about success of the

1171
00:58:16,100 --> 00:58:20,000
individual levels Etc, family
level success that a society

1172
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,300
level.
I Of pink and you just something

1173
00:58:23,300 --> 00:58:27,900
I mulled over quite a bit there.
I think we over attach

1174
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:32,200
importance to the reward.
I think you know success for the

1175
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:35,600
most part has become synonymous
with reward, right?

1176
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:42,100
But I feel the success really is
about great Journeys, right?

1177
00:58:42,100 --> 00:58:44,200
And this is something that I
have learned with my own

1178
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:46,500
experience and of course if you
get the reward at the end of The

1179
00:58:46,500 --> 00:58:49,400
Journey, you know it's of course
exciting.

1180
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,100
And you know, it's kind of in
some sense you know, check It's

1181
00:58:52,100 --> 00:58:56,100
the final box, but I do feel
that I think a lot more

1182
00:58:56,100 --> 00:58:58,700
excitement, a lot more
satisfaction, a lot more

1183
00:58:58,700 --> 00:59:01,600
success.
So to speak, right at multiple

1184
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:05,100
levels, your growth, your
happiness, your satisfaction,

1185
00:59:05,100 --> 00:59:09,500
you're learning, you know, and
your overall sort of attachment

1186
00:59:09,500 --> 00:59:12,200
to things and you know, your
your desire to do.

1187
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:14,600
Well in it.
All of that is really more a

1188
00:59:14,608 --> 00:59:17,100
function of Journey, right?
And so if you're having an

1189
00:59:17,100 --> 00:59:20,300
enjoyable, good journey, I think
that's success, right?

1190
00:59:20,300 --> 00:59:21,900
Like you want to do more of it,
you know?

1191
00:59:22,100 --> 00:59:25,400
Of you kind of get Intoxicated
by it, in some sense in a

1192
00:59:25,408 --> 00:59:29,900
positive way, right?
And if the journey is painful,

1193
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:31,900
right?
And if the journey is not, and

1194
00:59:31,900 --> 00:59:34,500
when I say painful, not in the
sense of challenging and helping

1195
00:59:34,500 --> 00:59:38,400
you grow, but painful, in terms
of pulling you back, painful in

1196
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:42,000
terms of, you know, being very
conflicting with your ideas, or

1197
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:45,700
your ethics, or your moral
compass, or any of any of the

1198
00:59:45,700 --> 00:59:47,500
other things, right?
That could be confusing.

1199
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:51,700
I think the reward honestly,
even if it appears successful is

1200
00:59:51,700 --> 00:59:54,400
not Success, you know, placed in
my opinion, I feel like it's

1201
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:56,900
actually very painful and it
it's a downer, right?

1202
00:59:56,900 --> 00:59:59,700
So again, sort of in simple
words, I think the journey is

1203
00:59:59,700 --> 01:00:02,100
the reward, not the reward
itself, right?

1204
01:00:02,100 --> 01:00:04,500
The end of it and that I think I
have concluded more.

1205
01:00:04,500 --> 01:00:08,100
So of course, I want to succeed
in terms of the reward as well

1206
01:00:08,100 --> 01:00:10,200
even today in my journey.
But you know I think the journey

1207
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:11,600
but I'm enjoying every day.
Right?

1208
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:15,400
So hundred percent.
So my answer would not be very

1209
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:18,300
different than your shank and
maybe I'm sharing this the first

1210
01:00:18,300 --> 01:00:21,800
time but which is fine but I
repeat something and maybe the

1211
01:00:22,100 --> 01:00:27,000
This would know by now for me,
actually, it's always success.

1212
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:31,400
I always maybe like a little bit
too much optimism, but this is

1213
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:35,500
the way I think, because for me,
there is nothing called failure,

1214
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,700
there is always learning.
So, of course, there are some

1215
01:00:39,700 --> 01:00:42,700
emotions that comes and you
feel, hey, like, today, I try to

1216
01:00:42,700 --> 01:00:45,700
do this, but I was not able to
do or maybe I try to do

1217
01:00:45,700 --> 01:00:50,100
something, but I figured out
that I was going the wrong way.

1218
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:53,200
Okay, fine.
So I say, I didn't actually I

1219
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:55,700
succeeded to know that this way
doesn't work, right?

1220
01:00:55,700 --> 01:01:00,200
So this is the way I look at it,
of course, but success can be

1221
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:01,800
measured.
Also, some people, as you said,

1222
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,100
they measured by how much money
you make some people.

1223
01:01:05,100 --> 01:01:07,700
They measure like, how many
friends you have?

1224
01:01:07,700 --> 01:01:10,500
How much activities you are
enrolled into for me?

1225
01:01:10,500 --> 01:01:15,200
Like of course like these are
small elements that it's like

1226
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:19,100
the top of the iceberg I would
say because success really is

1227
01:01:19,100 --> 01:01:24,300
about for me at least by the end
of the A, if I figured out that

1228
01:01:24,300 --> 01:01:28,100
I learn something new, this is a
huge success for me, like, for

1229
01:01:28,100 --> 01:01:32,200
me, I feel fulfilled.
I learn something new or I help

1230
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:34,300
someone.
This is for me, the success, of

1231
01:01:34,300 --> 01:01:39,500
course like I'm not too much.
I would say going into the Zen

1232
01:01:39,700 --> 01:01:42,100
philosophy or something.
No of course we are living in

1233
01:01:42,100 --> 01:01:44,500
reality, we need all to make
money and of course if I make

1234
01:01:44,500 --> 01:01:46,400
money out, he also be
successful.

1235
01:01:46,700 --> 01:01:49,300
But yeah.
Like I like to see the things

1236
01:01:49,300 --> 01:01:51,800
into a positive way.
I like always too.

1237
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:55,500
To I tell everyone, I don't have
the word failure in my

1238
01:01:55,500 --> 01:02:00,700
dictionary, I removed the years
back, I say I did mistake

1239
01:02:00,700 --> 01:02:02,200
tomorrow, I will not do it
again.

1240
01:02:02,300 --> 01:02:05,200
I succeeded to avoid this
mistake from now on so this is

1241
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:09,100
how I do it and fighting.
Yeah yeah, make her think.

1242
01:02:09,500 --> 01:02:10,700
Yes, thank you sir.
John.

1243
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:13,200
Well really, I enjoyed the
discussion.

1244
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:16,800
I really enjoyed your deep
detailed answers and you know, I

1245
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:20,400
believe you know, a lot of the
false, whether when we covered

1246
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:23,100
little bit about the tech part
When we covered the startup

1247
01:02:23,100 --> 01:02:25,500
part.
And by the way, the book that

1248
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:29,400
Shashank mentioned, whether you
agree with the author or not

1249
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:34,900
read the book 0 to 1, it's a
must-read book for anyone.

1250
01:02:34,900 --> 01:02:38,300
Not only if you are planning to
have a start-up, but I read it

1251
01:02:38,300 --> 01:02:40,400
myself.
I didn't agree with every single

1252
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:45,800
thing that Peter says there.
He goes a little bit.

1253
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:49,100
Like a people would say, he's
how you say this word.

1254
01:02:50,100 --> 01:02:51,600
Yeah.
Like he said, you should go and

1255
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:53,400
do it.
Monopoly for whatever you are

1256
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:57,000
right believer of Monopoly.
Yeah, I don't agree with all

1257
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:58,900
these ideas either but it's an
interesting book.

1258
01:02:58,900 --> 01:03:01,900
Every yeah.
But, but he's Point actually.

1259
01:03:01,900 --> 01:03:04,000
And this is why I'm saying
because I'm focusing now on

1260
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:07,500
startups and all these things
nowadays, because if you need to

1261
01:03:07,500 --> 01:03:13,000
start a company that can last
long go somewhere where really

1262
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:16,800
you can be the 02, I'm like
where there's no much people

1263
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:19,300
around you.
If you go now and you tell me

1264
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:23,600
hey my mat like I'm gonna start
a Storage to a company.

1265
01:03:24,100 --> 01:03:27,000
We going to have the disks and
this and fast.

1266
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:29,800
I'll tell you, you're playing in
a red ocean.

1267
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:31,900
You should go play in the blue
oceans.

1268
01:03:33,500 --> 01:03:36,400
Anyway, so so at this is one of
the books maybe I would do.

1269
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:39,500
One episode just about books.
One day Shawshank.

1270
01:03:39,500 --> 01:03:42,200
Thank you very much.
You stayed like a key play for

1271
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:44,500
you at this time.
I really appreciate the time.

1272
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:49,100
And for the audience as usual,
if you are watching this Please

1273
01:03:49,100 --> 01:03:51,500
let us know what you think.
Subscribe to the channel.

1274
01:03:51,500 --> 01:03:55,200
We are having a lineup of more
guests also as well.

1275
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:58,300
Summertime, I think I would not
be stopping, so keep watching

1276
01:03:58,300 --> 01:04:01,600
this space if you are listening,
using your favorite podcasting

1277
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:04,100
platform.
Also, if it's your first time,

1278
01:04:04,100 --> 01:04:07,700
just subscribe to the podcast
and stay tuned.

1279
01:04:07,700 --> 01:04:10,900
Don't forget tell you your
friends colleagues and family.

1280
01:04:10,900 --> 01:04:14,800
We are trying to get the best of
the best here in educational and

1281
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:18,200
fun manner as you have seen
today, so keep tuned.

1282
01:04:18,300 --> 01:04:21,100
Four more episodes and until we
meet in the next episode.

1283
01:04:21,100 --> 01:04:24,200
Thank you very much.
Thank you so much for having me

1284
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:26,800
tonight.
Wait my pleasure, hit that

1285
01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:29,400
subscribe button.
Share the show with your tech

1286
01:04:29,400 --> 01:04:32,400
savvy friends and fellow
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1287
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:34,700
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1288
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:37,500
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#154 Breaking Codes and Taking Names: The Shashank Tiwari Journey.

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