#58 The Power of Visual Note-Taking for Tech Professionals with Ashton Rodenhiser

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Hello, and welcome to a new
episode of the CTO show with

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Muhammad.
My name is Muhammad.

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And in each episode, I explore
latest trends inside strategies

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in, topics, like cybersecurity
digital transformation, digital

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Tech startups and
Entrepreneurship.

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But sometimes also, we bring to
the show thought leaders,

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innovators and entrepreneurs to
listen, from them about their

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expertise, in wide range of
Industries and how they are

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driving change, and make an
impact in the world of tech and

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business.
So So thank you very much for

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joining me today and I have with
me from Canada today.

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Ashton Ashton, she is a graphic
recorder.

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What is that?
Exactly passion.

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Really, let us know more.
So thank you for being on the

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show today Ashton.
So if you can just tell us a

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little bit about yourself what
you've been doing and you know,

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what is this graphic recording
all use Ashton.

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Yes, thank you so much for
having me such an honor to To be

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hanging out with you this
morning, my time.

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I think late afternoon your time
and yeah.

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So I started my business Mind's
Eye creative.

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I started the Journey of doing
this type of work, back in late

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2013.
So I'm coming up to pretty much

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10 years which is wild to think
about.

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And I learned about graphic
recording graphic facilitation

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as a facilitator.
So that's kind of how I got into

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it.
And yeah, it's been a really

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interesting fun Journey since
starting about 10 years ago,

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cool.
What is exactly graphic

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recording can you explain that
more to us?

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Absolutely.
Yes, absolutely.

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So most of the time people in a
room would consider themselves,

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a visual learner, the statistic
is all over the place, but 60 to

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70 60, to 80 percent of folks
would consider them, I was a

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visual learner and we all know
the cliches like a picture's,

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worth a thousand words and all
of that, but I'm there to

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visualize the information.
So you know in meetings and

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strategic planning sessions and
I cover a lot of conferences.

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So if you think about attending
a day-long conference and

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there's 10 speakers, how in the
world are you going to remember

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and then Implement any of that
information, it's just an

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Overload of information, right
in those situations and and I'm

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there to visualize the
information so that in a clear

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like one page snapshot you see?
And can remember the information

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from that presentation when I'm
in situations where it's like a

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meeting or strategic planning?
I'm really there making sure

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that the people in the room feel
heard, feel valued and they're a

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contributing voice and bye.
Be able to see your words and

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have a picture represent.
What you just said makes you

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feel more included in the
conversation that you that your

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voice is really important to
that conversation.

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So kind of two different
scenarios for you there, but

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generally, that's the the
practice of it.

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Now, while that's very much, I
mean, detailed explanation,

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thank you for that.
From your experience.

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Like how do you see this
technique or, you know,

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technology in general of you
leveraging traffic recording,

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will benefit, someone who is in
pure technical position whether

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they are a developer, maybe
maybe there are into devops,

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maybe they are a system admin so
or maybe an executive.

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So how do you see this
beneficial for them in their

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day-to-day tasks and jobs?
Jobs.

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Yeah, great question.
So I find that sometimes I get

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into situations.
People say, oh, our information

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is so complicated.
There's no way you could

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possibly graphic record it, but
that's the absolute specific

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reason.
When you should, that's when you

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should be using a visual tool
like this.

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What information is high stakes
when it's really complicated

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when you're trying to explain it
in a way that people can

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understand it.
And you know, for Nicole leaders

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in many different technical
roles using visual tools, like

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graphic recording or just
standing at the Whiteboard to be

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able to like explain out.
Your idea is pretty important

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and pretty powerful tool to be
able to use it in EA as part of

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your toolbox, right?
Yeah, yeah.

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So is there any special tools
that they need to have?

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Or is it just it can be on a
paper and Pen?

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I'm a fan of paper and Pen.
I am us.

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Fan of, keeping it simple, to be
honest with you, if there's

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like, a whole Community around
like napkin drawings, right?

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So when you're at the bar, after
the meeting where you should

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have been talking about the
thing, you grab a napkin and you

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draw what it is that you are
actually trying to explain,

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right?
So it could be enough.

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Kin in a pen for all I care.
But I try not to encourage any

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particular tools because I don't
want that to stop people.

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I'm using this type of thing to
help them, you know, communicate

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and learn.
Yeah, that's very funny because

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majority of, you know, we hit
about the startups and how they

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actually they came up with the
idea in the first place so you

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will hear that.
Yeah, we're sitting exactly.

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You know after that or we went
to the home and then we just

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start to draw on the napkin.
Now just brings me to the to

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another question and this is
something it's from myself.

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I know.
We turned some time to say, you

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know, like it, but I'm not very
good at drawing.

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Like, yeah, how how this scam
in.

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I cannot apply it.
You know, I can maybe take notes

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very quickly, but how can we be?
I can visualize this in a way

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that if someone else comes and
look at it, oh, he said, okay,

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this guy tried to say something
I can understand.

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So what me say on this?
Yeah, that's a question.

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I get a lot or a comment.
I should say that I get all of

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the time.
And, you know, Sometimes I feel

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like when people look at my work
that I've since I've been doing

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it for 10 years it's
intimidating and I am a little

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bit disappointed by that because
I started doing absolutely

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terrible drawings 10 years ago
and I just do it every day.

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So if you did it every day,
you'd be really amazing to.

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I don't feel like I'm special in
that regard but you can use

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basic shapes.
You know you don't have to draw

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out anything complicated, you
know, a square can represent a

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database or like you know, like
A cylinder or a square can

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represent a computer or a piece
of paper or whatever, using

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simple shapes that we already
know how to use.

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You know, when I'm teaching
this, to people, we start with

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lines, we start with drawing
lines and I say, if you can

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write letters, you can draw
because letters are just

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drawings and disguise.
So you already know how to draw,

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you know.
So, you know, and there's

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techniques that I showed, you
know, you can draw a star

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person.
Take a star at the top, you put

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a little circle and then, Little
arms and legs be cut or like the

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other points become the arms and
legs, right?

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It's doesn't have to be anything
complicated, right.

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It's just about using a visual
that visual tool to be able to

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help you explain something.
And it does not have to look

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pretty, you know, almost
sometimes like the worst, it

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looks probably the better it is
going to be to help you explain

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something, right?
So yeah, the the idea that you

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quote unquote, Contra, I really
don't want to hold people back.

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There's a author that I follow
and an educator in this space

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called Brandi, Edgar back.
And she has this whole idea that

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I really have taken into this
philosophy as drawing as a

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thinking tool, right?
Where we see drawing.

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As you know, you go to an art
gallery and you look at a

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drawing and just like something
to admire, but I think we need

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to redefined what drawing means
and using that as a thinking

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tool, as a communication tool
and the like, yeah, okay.

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Now, one thing that is a book,
it's my gym quick so about yes.

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Yeah, it's all about credit
area.

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Yeah.
So so he talks about actually

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training your brain to take
notes.

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I mean, when you, when you, when
you are in a meeting or in a

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conference so right or on the
left side and draw on the right

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side, maybe I'm mixing things up
from Munich but Finn from your

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experience.
Like did you see if On started

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to to apply this method, I would
say, have you seen someone who

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came back to you or she came
back to you and said, hey, like

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you know what?
For example, I was able to get

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more information from this
conference or maybe I don't

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know.
Maybe my studies went much

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better than before.
Like anything you have heard

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from people, you work with.
Yeah, I hear anecdotes all the

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time, you know which really kind
of keeps me.

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Laying in really lights.
The fire for me, that this is

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really valuable important work
and the world as like basically

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a professional doodle Earth.
I yeah.

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Like, I've had people come up to
me at conferences when I'm doing

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it and they're like, I don't
know how you got anything.

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I didn't understand a word that
person just said, right?

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And they're the tech that
because I do so many technical

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conferences, like they're the
ones that Technical and I'm not

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so, you know, so I've had lots
of those types of situations but

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but, you know, I have a like, a
little 15-minute Workshop that,

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you know, listeners can hop into
where is like, draw your first

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sketch note and I just been
getting feedback from P from

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people with that, and it's so
fun to see people never drawn

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something like this before and
then they after 15 minutes, they

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can draw one like it, boosts,
their confidence that they can

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do it.
Right?

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So and you know and how
different ways that People

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apply, this information is
really fascinating, there's some

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folks in this field that use in
a really unique ways like in

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coaching in mediation in those
types of situations.

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Like there's a whole Community
around using this type of visual

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tool to like recreate what an
obituaries they were fighting.

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So like, how to tell the story
of someone's life in this kind

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of drawing, you know, so there's
a really unique use cases and I

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think There's just going to be
so many more different ways that

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people use this.
That we can't even think of

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right now which is pretty
exciting.

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Wow, that's pretty much I mean
also insightful as well.

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So what do you think?
I mean it's it it was different

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like because I've seen also
something other techniques which

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is just sketching, right?
And people they just throw but

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but here it's like you are
trying to visualize the note

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itself.
Fried.

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So it hit.
What's the like it did something

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unique or does it?
Like, I would say, intersect

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with other techniques as well.
I mean, the graphic design

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recording with sketchnoting or
visual.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So the way that I okay, so for

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me the skills that all the same
which is about how its applied.

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So right now I'm really into
teaching people how to do

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sketchnoting and scheduling is a
bit of a semi popular term for

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Little note taking but the same
still skills.

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Apply when you do it like large,
or if you're doing a virtual

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like as someone like myself
who's a professional, the

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listening aspect is just a
little different.

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Whereas when I'm listening as a
professional and the room, I'm

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listening to everything as a
whole and trying to understand

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everything as a whole.
Whereas when you're sketchnoting

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or you're doing visual
note-taking, you're listening

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for yourself so that extra
challenge that I have is

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professional.
Is I have Be constantly

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filtering out bias, my own
assumptions, my personal

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opinion, you know, I can't let
my personal stuff enter in in a

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professional setting because
then I'm going to it's going to

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be have like a layer of Ashton
on top of it when it shouldn't

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right?
So that's like the extra

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challenge when you're doing it
professionally but when you're

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doing it for your scalps
yourself like I said, which I

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call sketchnoting or visual
note-taking.

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You know, it doesn't matter.
It's for yourself.

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You can draw and do whatever you
want because it's for you.

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And you don't have to share it
with anybody else if you don't

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want to write.
Yeah.

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Yeah.
I believe you started this.

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You said like ten years back,
right?

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So yeah.
And you said that, like, did you

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have some art background?
Like, because again, maybe I'm

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repeating the question, but
people they are, but this is too

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much out for me, you know, like
I prefer a good question.

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Yes, great question.
And so I have absolutely no art

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background.
Okay, I've always been very

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creative.
I've basically tried every art

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form out there felting and
painting and I do play a mentee

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instruments and the always been
very tactile and like trying new

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things and and playful and all
of that.

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But I didn't actually draw a
whole lot.

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Yeah.
Did painting and stuff.

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I didn't actually draw a whole
lot until I got into this work

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and you know, I I didn't go to
Art School, like I don't have a

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degree are like, none of that,
right?

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And and the beginning, I was
really embarrassed by it because

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I would like, who am I to like
do this art thing and I didn't

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even go to art school.
But now I like it because it

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really allows me to be able to
communicate to people like, hey,

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I don't have an art background
and I figured it out, you know,

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you can to it like, don't let
the fact that you don't have any

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previous experience in any sort
of drawing or art like Watch you

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back.
I tend to find that people who

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are would consider themselves
like more creative, you know,

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Len.
They they seem to gravitate

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towards this but knots, not
always the case, some people use

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it, very practically like I want
to use this to help me learn.

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I want this to help me
communicate with my team better

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so they use it in Boone.
A very practical sense rather

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than like a I want to like, have
fun while doing this and be

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creative and have a creative
process around it.

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I did say in the beginning I
started as a facilitator.

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So as a facilitator you're in a
room with people and you're

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hearing what they're saying and
you're feeding back to them in

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words what they're saying and
you're helping them make their

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own connections, which is
different than a teacher, right,

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where's the teachers?
Like I know things, you should

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know them to like this is what I
know.

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Now, you know, it and I really
fell in love with facilitation

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and did that for a couple of
years because I love seeing

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people like come to their own
realizations and you're just

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asking Being the questions and
feeding back and words.

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So It wasn't pretty natural
progression for me even though I

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didn't have a lot of art
experience or, you know, drawing

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experience in particular but I
had I had honed in my listening

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in my thinking and my feedback
skills.

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You know.
I just had to add that the

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drawing part into it, you know.
So I think I had a bit of a

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better learning curve getting
into it because I had that

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background but, you know, I
don't also have a ton of formal

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education as a Jill teacher
either.

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I worked at a place and a role
came up and I applied for it and

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got that job.
And I worked there for two years

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doing facilitation almost every
day.

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So, I just, you know, learned by
doing it for two years every

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day.
Pretty much, right.

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So, yeah.
So many people come into this

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type of work in so many
different ways and it definitely

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absolutely does not have to be
from an art, art background.

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That's, you know, good to hear
because it's encouraged.

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Thing, two people actually to,
you know, like to to try

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themselves to get into that and
get the benefits out of that.

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I've seen, like you V also like
Fortune 500 companies and you

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know, like em because always
anything, you know, what relates

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to a service.
I like to understand.

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You know, when we you work with
like different clients with a

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big small, What do they tell you
later on?

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Like, I mean, because they need
to see some benefits from out of

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the service.
Right.

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What what do you can say was,
you know, for them?

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Oh, wow.
You know, like Ashton, like,

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because of you did this, that
happened.

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So so what is usually, you know,
the thing that you keep hearing

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from from your clients when you
when you work with them.

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Yeah, I find sometimes you know,
this is my job sometimes to help

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Particulate to them because they
know they're like, wow, I really

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like this.
And I resonate it, but they

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00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,100
can't articulate why?
So that's my extra challenge.

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Sometimes is to articulate back
to them.

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These are the different values
and benefits of it.

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But I think the biggest comment
that I get from people is how

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memorable I made that session.
And even, if something wasn't

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captured specifically on the
graphic, at the end of the day,

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they remember like it.
Enhances your memory of

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00:18:04,100 --> 00:18:09,100
Experience.
So I had it was a manufacturing

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company and the plant manager
there he said to me you know I

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can remember where people snacks
at why can't I remember where

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people sat right?
Like he was really surprised by

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that you know and of course I
wasn't because of how our brains

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make these connections you know
and that's how I got into it

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too.
When I started doing it and I

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put away my piece of And a few
months later, I brought it back

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and I was surprised like I could
remember were people sad and,

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00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:40,800
and things that were captured be
on the paper.

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So, you know, because how many
times do we go to these meetings

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and all of these things and
we're trying to get good work

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done and you can't remember it.
It's like there's, you know,

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00:18:50,900 --> 00:18:53,900
there's a little report that's
written and it's like stashed

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00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:56,700
into filing cabinet and like,
that's it, right?

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00:18:56,900 --> 00:19:00,300
So, you know, when I create
these drawings and when I do

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00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:01,600
them a person, they're very
large.

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They're like four feet wide by 8
feet long usually And if it's

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00:19:04,900 --> 00:19:07,300
like a whole day, it's like
maybe 16 feet long or something.

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So they're really large, you
know?

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And then people, you know, it's
so fun.

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Sometimes I'll get on calls with
people and they have them

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hanging in their office, right?
Like that's like an

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00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:20,500
accountability tool if nothing
else.

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It's like, look, we did this
thing and we're going to

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continue to do this work.
It's not just in a report in

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00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,600
their drawer, right?
So when I team up with other

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00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,100
facilitators and we do, you know
strategic planning sessions on

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00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:35,300
all of that stuff like or
Restrict, like, we don't do

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reports because we all know what
happens to them, right?

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00:19:38,100 --> 00:19:41,500
So a lot of it just comes down
to, like continuing the work,

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right?
Like if you're in a situation or

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00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:47,500
you're trying to get stuff done,
like how you going to remember

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00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:50,900
what you're supposed to do now,
and I can't becomes like, you

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00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:52,900
look, it says right here.
Like when you're walking down

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00:19:52,900 --> 00:19:55,100
the hallway of your office and
it says right there, we were

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00:19:55,100 --> 00:19:56,500
going to do this by the end of
March.

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00:19:56,500 --> 00:19:58,900
Like we better get her act
together and do that thing,

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00:19:58,900 --> 00:20:01,000
right?
Like accountability for

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00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:02,700
everybody.
So I think those are sort of

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like the main things that I
Here, that I've heard over and

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00:20:06,100 --> 00:20:09,800
over again, over the years of
those, those things that of

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00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,200
course, there's many other
things but those are definitely

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and actually what you just said,
and I think this is something

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that I could add and why you
should, you know, consider them.

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I'm telling my audience here
because I've seen this a lot of

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times where you go to a meeting,
you talk talk, show some

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presentations, then you agree on
some deadlines and nothing.

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And later on, hey, and I've seen
it also, and it's from my

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00:20:37,900 --> 00:20:39,700
personal experience.
You sit with someone who said,

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00:20:39,700 --> 00:20:43,600
you know what, like let's do.
One, two, three, four.

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00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:48,000
But, again, it's just talk, it's
just not visualized.

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So I think the power of
visualization, as you said first

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it can help other people to
understand what you are trying

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00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:57,100
to say.
And I can see from, you know,

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00:20:57,100 --> 00:21:00,300
the experience that you shared
its the accountability Parts

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00:21:00,300 --> 00:21:02,000
threats.
Especially the you know, when

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00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:06,100
you talk about strategic
planning and I'm saying this to

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00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:09,300
CIO, sitios anyone who's
executive in Tech or even

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00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:12,900
Business Leaders because I think
this is one of the biggest

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00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:15,400
challenges is that.
Yeah, we have this ambitious

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00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,000
Vision that we want to achieve,
but hey, we can and everyone

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00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,400
talks about Vision, but actually
we don't see the vision, right?

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00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,600
So, I think this is a very good
way to, you know, to visualize

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00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,500
at least the plans and ideas.
Plus, I think the other thing

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00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:34,200
that I can take from you Ashton
is because I'm someone who

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attends a lot of conferences and
again like there's a lot of

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sessions and you come back and
say, okay?

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00:21:40,700 --> 00:21:43,100
I don't remember anything from
him, right?

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00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:45,600
Yeah.
So that's a great final thing.

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00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:50,300
Just if someone want to learn
more about this if someone want

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00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:54,100
to maybe consult with you where
they can find you and when they

378
00:21:54,100 --> 00:21:57,000
can find more information.
Yeah, great.

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00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:02,000
So my websites Mind's Eye
creative dot C A and I do have a

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00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,300
I mentioned it earlier a little
Video just me here in the

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00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,300
Myspace walking people through
drawing your first sketch notes.

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00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:13,600
So if you are hesitant or you
just want to learn more about

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00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:18,600
how you can do this and yeah, so
after at the end of 15 minutes,

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00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,100
if you draw along with me, which
I hope you will, you have your

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00:22:22,100 --> 00:22:24,000
very first sketch note that
you've just drawn.

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00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:29,000
I walk you through some tips and
tricks and some high level ideas

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00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,800
around lettering, and arrows,
and drawing a person, and

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00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,300
drawing a light bulb.
And then, some of the Process

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00:22:34,300 --> 00:22:36,700
around it.
And it's really quick and easy.

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00:22:36,700 --> 00:22:41,000
And I've heard a lot of folks
from people that they've really

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00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,700
been enjoying it and some people
even send me their sketch note

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00:22:44,700 --> 00:22:47,500
after they do it, which just
like seriously makes my day.

393
00:22:47,700 --> 00:22:49,400
Maybe.
Yeah.

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00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:53,600
And and so if folks want to grab
that they can go to sketchnote

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00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,300
101.com and grab that.
I do have a book coming out.

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00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:01,200
I don't have my release date yet
but it's going to be sometime in

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00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,500
May and it's the beginner's
guide to Noting.

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00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:07,300
So I've been working on this
book for over a year now, and I

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00:23:07,300 --> 00:23:10,900
did three rounds of beta reading
with over 1,500 comments that I

400
00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:14,000
had to sift through.
And it's been a really, really

401
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,000
fun process to put this book
together and it really is a

402
00:23:18,008 --> 00:23:21,300
beginner's guide for people that
are really, really new to this.

403
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,800
And yeah, we start with drawing
lines, right?

404
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:29,700
So it's yeah, so people can kind
of keep an eye out for that as

405
00:23:29,700 --> 00:23:32,400
time goes on for that time.
Yeah, that's great.

406
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,400
I would be sharing In the
episode description, the links

407
00:23:37,100 --> 00:23:41,300
and the website that passion she
just mentioned well we came to

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00:23:41,300 --> 00:23:44,900
the end, I still thank you very
much for joining me today in

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00:23:44,900 --> 00:23:49,900
this episode and for my audience
whether you are listening on

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00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:53,000
your favorite podcast platform
or watching this on YouTube.

411
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,700
Thank you very much for tuning
in and we will meet again in

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00:23:56,700 --> 00:23:58,400
another episode.
Thank you very much.

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00:23:58,500 --> 00:23:59,000
Bye bye.