#574 The Age of Synchrony: Why Human Connection Wins in the AI Era With Joshua Bernstein

Mehmet: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome back to an episode of the CTO Show with Mamet today. I am please joining me, Joshua Bernstein. He's the author of The Age of Synchrony. Also Joshua has been an investor. He is been in in the tech for a long time, and Joshua is kind of a rare mix, I would say between, um, you know, the thought leadership with, uh, financial knowledge, and of course a passion for startup.

So I don't like to steal much from my guests. S time, Joshua. This is why I would like to welcome you again. So just for the audience, tell us more about you, you know, your, your journey and what you're currently up to, and then we can start the discussion from there. 

Joshua: That sounds great. Mehmet. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me here.

I'm excited for this conversation that we're gonna have today. Uh, by way of quick background, as you mentioned, I've been in the technology space for 30 something years with quite a diverse background, both in the [00:01:00] investment, operational, as well as consulting sides of things. And where I've turned my attention to lately is an area that we call Synchrony.

So everyone has had the experience of feeling very deeply connected to someone very quickly, but that has largely been a random occurrence over time. And where I've been putting my focus lately is on the neuroscience, the science, and the technology of how we can choose to create those kinds of connections.

So that we can build more effective relationships, more effective teams, and more effective products. Uh, and if this is becoming more and more important these days as AI is on everyone's lips. So I spend most of my time nowadays, uh, building out these concepts, principles, frameworks, and trainings around synchrony.

Um, and I also run a consulting firm called Vault Profit Partners that works with companies across various different industries. Anything from a founder with an idea on a napkin up through [00:02:00] multi-billion dollar. Companies. So I'm excited to dive into any and all of these topics with you, meme today, and anything that might be of interest to your audience.

Mehmet: Great. Thank you again, Joshua, for making the time with me today. I would love to start with this shift towards the neuroscience and, you know, the synchrony, um, and I know like you, you, you talk about something called sync framework. So in simple terms, you know. I would like you Joshua, to dissect it to us, you know?

Why, why, you know, we need this, uh, framework, what's happening to, to our brain, I would say. So you felt like this is something much needed? Of course you said ai, you just mentioned ai, but I'm sure like there are also like some other factors that play a role for you to dive more into this, uh, field. So ask more about it.

Joshua: Yeah. So first and [00:03:00] foremost, you know, there's an incredible feeling of disconnection globally nowadays. Uh, and that encompasses people feeling disconnected from one another, be they family members, friends, or the greater society at large. Uh, and also people feeling a fear of what's coming next As AI rolls out, right?

There's this growing fear that AI is gonna somehow replace lots of jobs and work. What I'm finding is the more that people are starting to rely on ai, the more important the ability for human connection. So what I see happening as we roll forward in time very quickly is the importance of human connection, of humanity, of being able to relate to one another, to lead teams.

Is going to exponentially grow as well alongside the technology. So what led me to dive in deeper at this [00:04:00] point in time? Was those societal trends, but also the technology to measure human interaction to measure what we call synchrony. And just by way of quick definition, think of synchrony as when two biological systems start to act in time and in unison with one another.

So that could be something from an amazing conversation where you just click or something larger where whole teams feel like they're in momentum. Together. So as the technology to measure that comes out of laboratories and starts to be available to us on a daily basis, you can think about the Apple watches that we wear, the rings that we have on the headsets, you see measuring brainwave activity.

We have the ability for the first time to see real time human connection. And that opens up a tremendous opportunity for people. It opens up the [00:05:00] opportunity to build very large companies that help to measure and enable these kinds of interactions. Uh, but it also helps us, all of us who are listening here on a day-to-day basis to just improve the quality of our life.

At the foundation of all human connection we've found is this ability for us to have a neurobiological connection to other people. So this isn't something that has to be learned. We all have this innate in us. It's maybe the original human technology. And as we're now able to start to work with it, it's going to open up a very exciting time.

So I've put my stake in the ground. I've just about to publish my first book on the topic, which is called The Age of Synchrony, and we can dive into that. But what I see unfolding is essentially a renaissance in human connection of human interaction, and I'm excited to see where this [00:06:00] leads and how we can build this together.

Mehmet: That's great. Now, maybe a controversial question, Joshua, because you know, um, you mentioned that we are more and more feeling not connected, and I hear it a lot by the way. I had a lot of, you know, guests on, on this show, uh, who are in the space of some of them coaching, some of them leadership, and they were sharing with me how, you know.

It's only the, I'm not sure if it's only the, the we, we can put this on the technology or is it like our lifestyles, which changed with time, but we're seeing like this more. Um, I would say lack of bonding that used to happen before. And now in the age of ai, we are seeing a lot of these pushes where, you know, we're telling people, Hey, like you can go and build great things by yourself.

You don't need to build teams. You can [00:07:00] be the one, uh, you know, one, uh, man show company, like billion dollar, um, single founders. So. In all this, do you see like there is some also in addition to the technology itself, us humans pushing toward this, maybe I would say directly or indirectly, maybe on purpose or not on purpose, and this is letting people more to feel like there's something wrong going on here.

What's your take on that, Joshua? 

Joshua: Yes, I, I think we're seeing the evolution of a long downward trend, uh, in people bonding. So if we think back long periods of time ago when people, let's say, lived in the place that they were born, were surrounded by close family and close friends, then people started moving into large cities, and that's increasingly become the phenomenon.

So what we're seeing is, again, a [00:08:00] continuation. Of the separation of, of people. And you pointed out a very intra this, this idea and technology of the one person billion dollar company is now being romanticized. Um, I'm not sure how romantic an idea that actually is though. Do people really want to be sitting by themselves at a computer?

Necessarily with an army of bots, even though they might build a very large and successful company, is that really how people want to be spending their time day to day? And, and I would argue that in most cases, no, because the need for human connection, uh, is vital, right? Vital to our health, to our wellbeing.

Not just mentally, but physiologically. Like our bodies, when we get together, especially in person though, it can happen to some extent online. Our bodies are craving that connection. Right? And if we were able to see [00:09:00] visually everything that was happening between people when we interact, we'd, we'd be blown away by it.

Because our bodies are literally built for that kind of connection. So what we're seeing is, again, a, a continuing movement towards more isolation. And the rise of technology that gives the ability for people to work more independently with the technology. And a third aspect, which is our communication as we're doing today with this podcast conversation, is largely being intermediated by screens.

So all of these different elements create this increasing separation. And in some way, we guess like my work and where I'm staking this next phase of my career is on a push to help people move the other way. Uh, what I'm building is tools, understanding and awareness for people to reconnect with one another, [00:10:00] whether they're physically in person or online.

Because I think if we don't reestablish that human connection. To the extent it was previously, uh, I think society might grow beautifully in a technological way and actually lose the core of what makes us human and what makes life enjoyable 

Mehmet: right now. You talk about, you know, using neuroscience and you mentioned something about, you know, the, the, the thing that we have that we might not know that help us into, you know, kind of communicating with others and, you know, establishing trust and, you know, maybe also emotionally a affect people.

And I'm asking you this because, you know, part of the journey of. You know, a lot of people, but here I focus more on, on entrepreneurs and founders. So they pass through a lot [00:11:00] of, uh, you know, emotions and a lot of, uh, moments where they need to establish this trust. Whether it's like maybe they're pitching to a new customer, maybe they're pitching in front of an investor.

So how I can know. What I have when it come to, to this, and of course it's there, you said like, I don't need to go and learn it, but how I can discover it myself and start to use it to strengthen this, uh, you know, trust and, you know, the way I talk to people again. Especially now, everything in front of us.

It's, it's like pushing towards like isolation and, you know, staying behind the screen as you said. And by the way, I'm happy because I'm still able to do the podcast. I tell people like, the biggest gain for me, it's not like about how many downloads I get. It's not about, um, you know, if, if, uh, if, if there's something in it.

For me, for me it's just, you [00:12:00] know, having a connection with a real human being and having like 40, 50 minutes of, of. Real chat about things that, you know, it's for interest for me and of course might be interest for a lot of other people. So again, back to the question, Joshua, how I can, how I can discover this and, and grow it when it comes to the neuroscience, uh, things that you'd mentioned at the beginning.

Joshua: Uh, it's a, it's a great question, and what I would ask is, you know, have you ever had that experience of just connecting very deeply and very quickly with someone? Right. 

Mehmet: Sometimes. Sometimes 

Joshua: yes. Sometimes it happens, right? Yeah. And, and when it does, it's amazing. So the, the first piece of all of this I tell people is you, there's no need to add anything to what a person does, but we can remove maybe some of the things that get in the way, some of the noise.

So the first thing I think people can [00:13:00] do is just try to be more present when they're with someone. Because our, again, our brains and bodies, and we now know this from the neuroscience literature, are always trying to create the connection with the other person. And where this shows up in some of the research, for example, is when we measure the brain activity, we can actually measure the brainwave activity and see.

When the brains connect up and get in sync and when they don't. And so first thing, if a person learns, just to become aware of those times where they feel that connection with someone, that's the starting place. Now, if we take it a little bit farther from that. Uh, the question is how do we use what our bodies are naturally picking up on to start to consciously create this feeling of connection?

Right? And that's where a lot of my work focuses on nowadays, and we can do that with the [00:14:00] words that we use. So, for example, if you listen very carefully, when a person is speaking, they will start to communicate using words based on what they see. Hear, feel, or think, it's what I call the shift code. And what the person is doing is they are revealing to you how their brain likes to process information.

So if you, again, listen carefully and pay attention to those words that a person is using, you can start to use similar types of words with that person to start to create a deeper bond that you and the other person will feel. There's also things that can be done in terms of just relaxation of your own body.

That enables the bodies to kind of commingle and create that kind of connection. And when you standardize this, which is where my work goes, I've built, as you mentioned, what I call the sync protocol, [00:15:00] SYNC, and that's a simple four step process that people can use to change their state s to yield. The information, meaning forget about what you're trying to accomplish.

Any agenda, just be with the other person. N is for notice how the other person is feeling behaving, right, and C is to create the connection. So through very simple processes, again, awareness at first and then simple processes. To go ahead and create that connection. We can start to leverage this neuroscience that we currently are starting to understand better.

So if we look, for example, at the research on a site that's called PubMed, right? Of the National Institutes of Health, there are about 16,000. Cited research articles on this concept of synchrony nowadays. So the work that we have ahead of us [00:16:00] is to make people aware first that this is even possible, right?

Because you've said you've had those experiences where the connection just happens. We all have, it feels amazing if we could do it on demand whenever we want, everyone wants to do that, and now we're in the process of putting those tools into people's hands so that people can choose to do that when they'd like to experience it.

Did, does that answer your question? 

Mehmet: Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, is there a way where. I can encourage this. I don't know, like I can. Uh, so maybe I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a business owner. Maybe I'm a small startup founder, or maybe I'm just a team leader and I think this is, again, maybe I'm repeating myself more than anytime before.

I see this is important, you know, about, you know, the relationships and strengthening these relationships. How I can encourage this, Joshua, is there any kind of practice that I can [00:17:00] do with my team so we can. Be prepared. So whether we are going to meet a new customer or maybe, you know, we are having a new business meeting with a potential partner and or so, of course, you know, knowing this and being aware is one thing, but going and trying to practice it is something else.

And I think, you know, like any other thing in this world, like the more we try to practice it, the better we can do. So is there anything, me, as a team leader, founder. Business owner, I can do not only for myself, but also for the people around me. And this, I think, you know, you, you talk about it as the coherence also as well, and making everyone, uh, inside the organization be on the same page.

So maybe I'm mixing two things together, but I think this is important. What, what, what, what's your take on this? 

Joshua: Yeah. So on, on a very, very simple level, we know that. Eye contact creates synchrony, so you're a startup [00:18:00] founder or a team leader, whatever it might be. If you just choose before a meeting or at the start of a meeting with someone just to engage.

Five, 10 seconds of eye contact with that person that will create synchrony. So there, there are very small practices. So one is, again, physiological eye contact is one way to do it. Another is the research shows that when teams get together and have a shared intention, and they're clear about, let's say, the intention for the meeting.

That can help to move people into coherence as well. So very tactically speaking, having clear agendas and an outcome for a meeting stated on. And then at the beginning of the meeting to reiterate and discuss and make sure everyone, you know, we use the term on the same page, uh, is another way to do that.

Uh, those are, I would say, the two quickest [00:19:00] ways to start to think about that. The, the other ways, you know, as, um, a startup leader or a founder, how you can start to use or leverage this, is to look at the communication patterns of another person. So we touched a little bit about words. So practically speaking, if you have some emails from somebody on your team or a client or a partner, if you simply look at those emails that they have sent and search for words related to what you see, hear, feel, or think.

See which of those four categories they like to use the most. And the next time you communicate with them, choose some words in that category that they prefer. Another very tactical way. Um, in terms of when you're meeting someone face to face, you can also start to pay attention to their body. So how quickly do they speak?

What's the tone of voice that they use? How often do [00:20:00] they pause? How deeply are they breathing? So as you start to get trained up in these concepts, you can very simply use these techniques that are available to all of us to create the synchrony and and to start to do so on demand. As you start to get into call, I would say more sophisticated or faster ways to do it.

It turns out our brains have the ability to do it on their own. So you can literally start to train your brain to create the synchrony for you on demand whenever you would like. So think of these as a, call it a system of training your body. Responds very quickly to effort. So if you start to, let's say, do this practice of creating eye contact with a person just for a few seconds at a time, and, and the research is very clear, they, they did a study with [00:21:00] a group of high school students and their teacher.

And they found that if they just start off with a very little bit of eye contact at the beginning of class, it creates a stronger synchrony. And the research shows that that led much better outcomes in terms of the class, in terms of how people interacted in those kinds of things. And if you do this consistently.

You are telling your brain and your body that you are putting effort into this place and intention, and your brain and body will start to take that message in and then make it easier and easier for you. 

Mehmet: One thing on this, Joshua, it's just came to my mind now. So some people would, what would say, Hey, like Joshua, I, I understand what you're saying.

I got it, but you know, I'm an introvert. Like I feel shy. I can't do eye contacts all so. What's your counter, uh, argument to someone who might say this? 

Joshua: Yeah, it's actually funny. Someone who [00:22:00] feels that they're a little more introverted will actually pick up on this maybe more quickly. Here's why. Um, a big piece of learning to, to get in sync with other people is observation.

Mm-hmm. So if someone tends to be more introverted, a lot of my friends who consider themselves more introverted are extremely observant because they might not be putting as much time into thinking, what am I gonna say next to lead the conversation? But they tend to pay very close attention. To the people in front of them and what they're doing.

So to an introverted person, I would say that's amazing. That's a superpower. Now leverage that, you know, start to pay a little more attention to what the communication from that other person is telling you, their words, their body language, their breath. So, so get even better at reading those kinds of signals.

And then the next step is to think. [00:23:00] What is going on in this person's mind right now? Like really try to put yourself into their shoes, and you'll find that the act of putting yourself into that person's shoes often creates the synchrony itself. So for an introvert, there's not this need to have to go out and create eye contact, you know, to use that mechanism for it.

They don't have to start to talk more or be more charismatic. They can actually leverage their own strengths and their own interests to go ahead and create the bond. And what happens meme is once the bond is created. You typically feel that in your own body, it, it's a very strong signal that now that you're aware that the signal exists, I bet over the next few days you'll start to pay more attention to it and you'll notice when it shows up and, and so for an introvert and for everyone else, once they start picking up on those signals, [00:24:00] they can start to just kind of let conversations flow more naturally.

You don't feel like you have to do anything or guide the conversation in a certain way, because once you have the connection established, we interpret that as trust. And ultimately, a lot of your questions today so far have really been asking how do we create trust with people? How do we create trust?

And so once that connection is there and you know it's there, carry on is normal. You don't have to do anything special after that. 

Mehmet: So, you know, uh, it's very deep. You know, it looks simple, but it's not simple. But at the same time, it's not hard. And the reason I'm saying this, Joshua, because I know from myself, um, I still consider myself sometime an introvert, but I can relate to what you just said, right?

Maybe you saw like my eyebrows went up when you are talking about this, [00:25:00] and, you know, and, 

Joshua: and me, yes, I'm paying attention to that. 

Mehmet: Yeah. And the, the way, you know, maybe it's, it's the same thing but in a different technique. You know, usually is if I have to, to, to be kind of leading a conversation somehow.

Uh, so the best way I found with work and to build trust, of course, like the eye contact as much as you, as you can, and then. Try to focus on what you are trying to convey as message more than what people will think about me. Or maybe, oh, like they will not like my voice tone, or maybe they will find me silly.

You know, like, and this why I was, you know, smiling when you were mentioning this because I could relate to. To this, uh, earlier in my career, you know, when I, I had the first time to go and start to talk to people, you know, I was like sitting behind a, uh, a, a a screen all [00:26:00] day and uh, you know, all of a sudden I found myself like, Hey, I have to talk to a lot of people.

And this is, you know, the thing which. I think the question I wasn't asking myself that time, but now I know what was the question was how I can let other people trust me, like and why should they trust me in the first place. Right. So I think the trust, the word trust is very important here and that's why, you know, I was asking you specifically about founders and, and you know, small teams because you know, always they think.

How we can do this big impression, but I see like if they go back to basics and just, you know, try to be themselves and try to, to do these things you, we were just mentioning, I think this is sort out a lot of the things. So a hundred percent agree on you on this. Joshua, now I want to ask you about the book.

So what's the core idea or like the big idea behind the book? What, what you're trying to tell the audience. 

Joshua: So, yeah, in the book is called the The Age of Synchrony, and the [00:27:00] core premise of the book is that we have entered a new age. In that age is when getting in sync moves from chance. It's a choice, meaning we now have the technology to measure it.

We're building out the capabilities to train it and learn it. And as people become aware that this exists, it has the potential to change so many domains of life. Not only the business realm as we're talking about, but healthcare. Education, sports, technology. The reason is we are racing to use AI and it's transforming so many different aspects of our lives.

But if we race to implement AI and new [00:28:00] technologies that amplifies what we do. And if we don't have deep human connection and coordination established and we race to amplify that, that leads to chaos. So the core purpose and premise of the book is really to make people aware. That this concept of synchrony exists, that it's something we can work with and it will become the most important human capability in the time moving forward from here.

And lastly, there's nothing to learn. Our body comes pre-installed, all of us. With the biological technology to know when we're in sync, to know when we're out of it and to create it. So by [00:29:00] publishing the book and by doing so now, I wanna start a conversation around this so people know that there's an ability that's in them already.

That can really transform each aspect of their life in a very positive manner. So, so that's the primary, say, purpose and and goal of the book right now. But to take it back to your last comment, which was so interesting, you said, you know, earlier in your career or maybe some founders get in a room and they're like, how do I create trust, right?

So I can get people on board and get them to trust me. 

Mehmet: Yeah, 

Joshua: and what's so interesting is that, let's take the example of a founder going in to pitch some investors, right? Decisions are made emotionally, and then we use logic to justify them, right? So what you've hit on is the most important thing in that room when a founder walks into that room or anyone into a [00:30:00] meeting.

The most important thing is what is the state that the person's in, and how is the emotional connection between the people, because those two things create the trust. The trust isn't from something you say. The trust is from being who you really are, which you hit upon right? In letting that authentic you come through.

In the right way. That's the foundation that has to exist for a yes from an investor, for a meeting to go well for a relationship, be it personal or professional to progress. And so by putting this book out at this point in time. Ultimately, I want people to realize that they don't have to go off and try to be someone they're not.

They don't have to go off and try [00:31:00] to, you know, use certain tactics to create this trust. What they really have to do is learn how to let their brain and body do what they were designed to do. 

Mehmet: So it's like we call it reading the room, right? So when you walk in, so you read the room, you see like. And understand, of course.

I, I suspect, you know, and this we do in every meeting, whether it's like for, uh, talking to investors or talking to customers that you did your own research. But again, when you walk in, because this is a, a mistake I heard about, I didn't see it. I, I saw it in not for investment, uh, purposes, but where people, they do research well, but.

They become so, you know, I don't want to be that harsh, but let, I would, I would use this word so they become so robotic, right? So they program their brain with the information [00:32:00] that they have found, or maybe what people, they told them about this person that they're going to meet, or maybe more than one person they're going to meet, and then they start to program themselves.

Oh, like this is how we should act. Like this is how we should enter the room. This is how we will greet them. This is how we'll talk. And I can say 90% of the time will be more, I'll not be exaggerating, that people who over complicate things fail and people who just go with the flow, of course. Like without losing respect, without being so ignorant.

So go there, of course, do your research, but as you said, like just do. Just be yourself. I found out that. At least you would not go with this appointment, even if the outcome wasn't as you wanted. But probably like you might say, Hey, like maybe we can talk another time, or let me leave this with you and then maybe we'll follow up in couple of weeks, couple of months [00:33:00] maybe, and then we will review it again.

And yeah, this, this completely makes sense. What I'm understanding from you, Joshua is actually very simply yet people, they try to overcomplicate things. And you mentioned something about like how we take decision emotionally, and I think a lot of people miss on this, and this is why they over complicate, um, you know, complications sometime, which is, and I'm bringing this all to my question, um, which I would ask you next about AI again.

So. Nowadays we are seeing like as we are more and more adopting ai, and of course I'm mentioning AI is not because there is no other technology 'cause it's the main technology, uh, that is now going mainstream. But, uh, I'm seeing more and more people are relying on it to reach out to other people, like to, to put it as a digital twin [00:34:00] persona.

So here. What, what would be the method to keep having the sense of trust? So let's say, of course, I don't wish any day that happens soon, but someone ask me one day like, what if you as MeMed as the host, you put a. Digital twin and you and this digital twin start to interview people. I said, never ever. I would stop the podcast the moment like, because I want me to have this conversation.

Yeah, but still it's something that's coming. Joshua, I don't know how you are seeing this. Is it a threat? Is it like something we should be aware of? What, what? What are your thoughts on this? 

Joshua: It's such an interesting issue, right? Because let's say if you're doing email outreach at scale. Right. The, the lure of using AI to craft more personalized messages, uh, who's gonna turn that down?

Right? 

Mehmet: Yeah. 

Joshua: Because the promise right. Of, of reach and [00:35:00] personalization. And so of, of course, that's going to be adopted. Does it lose something? Absolutely. Um, and maybe not exactly in the way most people may think, but. The, the process of actually thinking about the person that you are emailing and the intention that goes into that, while we can't measure that directly today, has an impact on the other person.

Who receives it. Right. And, and I'm not gonna dive into kind of esoteric topics, but there's a lot of research going on nowadays about the physics, right? Of non-local communication, for example. And so this idea that we can use AI to. Be everywhere [00:36:00] to do things at mass volumes to create a digital twin. It, it can do wonders for blasting out content, but it doesn't create real connection with people.

Uh, and to your point too, the day they come to you and say, me, here's your digital twin who's gonna do the podcast, right, that you're gonna run the other way. Uh, you know, I completely get that. So what we're seeing is a divergence, right? We're going to see mass usage and adoption of AI tools for. Massive communications for digital twins.

It, it's unavoidable at this point, but we're then in a parallel sense going to see tremendous focus on real time human. Connection and communication. And the more people rely on the scalable technology, the more important and the faster the need will grow for the human side of the equation. So I see these really as, as [00:37:00] complimentary, you know, size, if you wanna call it two sides of the same coin.

Um, and, and so what we'll see is, is the technological use takes off. Again, that loses some of the ability to really connect connection. And then on the other side, we're gonna see a really big drive towards offline, in-person events, like knowing that you're actually sitting in front of a real person and, and having a real communication.

And, and the core of that comes down to one thing, and that is AI can simulate human connection, but it does not have an embodied sense of it. Right, right. So it can mirror the words that someone uses. It can say the right things, it can appear to be empathetic, but our nervous systems are actually communicating with one another.

So right now, even though you and I are seeing each other through a screen, our [00:38:00] nervous systems are interacting with one another. Right. And that doesn't happen in technology. And so oftentimes I think what people find, and this is increasing, is they might have a communication, maybe they're even using their LLM and they like the response they're getting, but it feels hollow.

Um, and that's because the body is feeling a lack of another nervous system to connect with. So I think you are touching on what may be the core issue. Moving forward. Um, and, and it will be very interesting to see how these two things evolve together. Um, and, and again, back to your question earlier, that that is also one of the primary reasons why I thought now was the right time to write this book because I feel that the technological side of the equation is being focused on, it's being [00:39:00] taught, it's being emphasized.

The human side is something that we're losing. I look at a lot of kids. I don't know if you have children, but I look at a lot of younger kids, teenagers, 20 somethings nowadays, and the ability to just hold a human conversation is declining tremendously. Right, and that shouldn't be considered an art or a lost art.

That's just the basics of, of how people have engaged since the beginnings of time. So, back to the beginning of this question here is, is something lost Right, by those uses of technologies? Absolutely. But we're not putting that genie back in the bottle. So we're gonna walk down these two paths and hopefully find a way to make them, you know, work together.

Mehmet: If you allow me, Joshua, to the point you said, this is my own theory. [00:40:00] If everyone and, and you know, like these tools are becoming. You know, available to us like any other tool, right? Like, uh, so maybe like any new thing in this world, at the beginning it'll be like just in the hands of few people, but after a while it becomes mainstream, so, so these AI tools are in the hand of everyone.

My theory is. That means everyone can do these personalized emails. Right? And you know, the, the promise that, oh, you use the technology, whether it's AI or anything else. Like before, like they were using some other technologies, uh, to do the personalization. Now AI is making it much easier. So my theory says if everyone is able to do the same thing, what's your differentiation?

In startups? We use the word mode, right? Yeah. And that's why I'm, I'm believing, and you know, again, in startups we talk about distribution and you know, distribution is like how you're gonna sell your product [00:41:00] service, you know, like, right. And this is where I believe more than any time before. It's like the humanization of this relationship is the one that's gonna win on the long run.

And I'm not against using technology. I use ai, not because I'm a technologist by by training, but because I can see the benefits of using this technology, I can see the benefit of using maybe some AI agents to summarize my emails. Maybe sometime if it's simple things to reply to these emails, but it's not a replacement to me as mamed, the human being, talking to Joshua, the human being, and.

You know, because we don't have to only talk about this, my opinion, of course, like we don't have to only, of course, maybe we have a business transaction, but to me it's like about this last, uh, long lasting, uh, relationships. And maybe I can discuss with Joshua something related to philosophy or maybe I would discuss with you something related to.[00:42:00] 

I dunno. History. And because you know what I have found out, and because I work in, in, in sales for, for long time, you build the trust by discussing something outside of your main reason why you are there. And this where you build this, what we are calling the trust, the bond, whatever you want to call it.

So to your point, Joshua, I think this is a very interesting times. Uh, the only concern I'm having, I'm happy, for example, some. Some kids, actually my, my daughter included, she's aware that. There should be a limit of how to utilize AI and not to hundred percent outsource your everything to AI and still keeping some human things.

Of course, like, but like similar to when the social media came and similar to when the internet before came and all this, you know, there are some, some, some hype about the, the, the, the technology. But AI is very different place. It's like. [00:43:00] I don't know. We'll see how things would, would, uh, uh, would be in the future, but I'm very happy, Joshua, that you brought these things and maybe the audience will notice.

In the last two, three episodes, I started to focus more on the human aspect of the technology because I think we are not discussing this enough. Um, it's just, just an observation from my side. Yeah. I'm excited about the technology. I share a lot on my socials about, Hey, like, see this model, see this, you know, discovery.

But we need to remember, we, we, we are humans. Last question I want to ask Joshua for today is. With all this happening and back to the neuroscience and back to all, you know, the points we, we went through today, and it's kind of a philosophical question. Of course, if you want to take a different direction, completely fine.

[00:44:00] What would be our purpose? Like what would be our. Activities in an age where AI can maybe do, I would say 95% of our work, 

Joshua: uh, that, that's a, a fascinating topic that, that we'll need to dive, uh, deeper into. But just to touch on one other thing first, and that is. You know, you mentioned with, with your daughter and with with kids and, and the kind of the growth of, of ai, like almost like what's left.

Like what do, what do we do, right? Where do we go? Um, I really think the only differentiation moving forward as things become more. Commoditized is authenticity. Um, mm-hmm. And, and that ties into this last question is what, what's the purpose? What do we do? I would say the purpose really is to discover who you are and to be that to the fullest extent.

Um, that really, if you imagine a [00:45:00] future in which the AI or AI and robots, those related fields can do most of what we would consider to be the productive. Work. Um, I don't have an easy answer, right? For what people do in, in those scenarios because we do, we derive a lot of our, our meaning to life by the productivity that we have.

Um, but just thinking more broadly about kind of purpose and, and why we're here. Uh, I think a big part of our purpose here is just to experience life to the fullest we can, and then to share those experiences with other people, either to maybe give people a spark of imagination that they might want to try it.

To, uh, or to just share experience, to grow the richness of the fabric of, of humanity together in the experiences that we have. So maybe that pulls this conversation maybe back to a very interesting place, which [00:46:00] is go have the experiences in real life, live the richest fullest life you can have surrounded by great family and friends and food and drink.

Maybe then use the technology leverage and scalability to let as many people as possible partake in that to the extent that they want to. 

Mehmet: This is the, the best advice I would say. Yeah. Like you, you go and enjoy the life. Just discover and share the experiences. Like this is what, you know, I'm optimistic by, uh, by nature, and this is why I'm telling people Yeah, like, you know, if the technology can do all this.

Yeah, maybe we should go back and you, we should like go travel the world and start to discover. Discover ourselves, discover other cultures. You know, there's plenty of things to do over there. Uh, well, Joshua, really, I enjoyed the discussion. We can go hours and hours, I would say, especially on this last topic, but before I let you go, where people can find out more and get in touch.[00:47:00] 

Joshua: Absolutely. The, the best place, and this will be, uh, starting in a few by the time this episode is out, it'll be available, is to go to Amazon, uh, get a copy of the Age of Synchrony. Um, I think for people who wanna dive deep into this topic, that's the best place to go find it. Um, I'm on Twitter at, we'll put in the show notes at at Joshua Bernstein.

Um, and I'll give you all the contact information. Me. I, I welcome anyone who's interest in these topics will give them my email address. Just reach out. Would love to have conversations. With anyone that has any interest in these are related topics. Um, and to echo your sentiment as well, ma'am, is I also, I love technology.

I'm fascinated by all of these developments, and I want to make sure that we have this human capability, you know, side by side going forward. So to your extent so people can. Live their lives, explore the world, enjoy time with family and friends, and, and add to [00:48:00] the richness of all of these conversations.

Mehmet: Great. Thank you again, Joshua, for being here with me today. Like of course, the links will be in the show notes as you mentioned. So if people are listening to us on your favorite podcasting app, you, you will find that in the show notes. If you're watching this on YouTube, you'll find in the description.

Again, I can't thank you enough, Joshua. It was. Very rich conversation. Deep conversation. That's why I like about, you know, meeting people like yourself, um, you know, to, to discuss these, I would say important, uh, topics, which in my opinion, we are not covering them enough. So I'm hoping that, you know, it's small contribution, uh, to the world where I bring, uh, people like yourselves, Joshua, to share that.

And thank you for, you know, sharing the time and the knowledge with. Me and the audience today, and this is how I end my episode. This is for the audience. If you just discovered us by luck, thank you for passing by. I hope you enjoyed If you did, so, give me a favor, subscribe and share with your friends and [00:49:00] colleagues, and if you're one of the loyal fans, thank you very much for, you know, listening, tuning in, sending messages.

I really appreciate that and thank you, of course, to keep. The podcast running now, uh, and having the amazing results. I'm seeing, you know, different countries sometime we are in Europe, sometimes in, uh, Australia, Asia, where we are, uh, trending in the top 200 Apple Podcast chart. So this cannot happen without you folks.

So thank you very much, and as I say, always stay tuned for a new episode very soon. Thank you. Bye-bye.