#564 The Accessibility Advantage: Max Ivey on Why Inclusive Design Is a Competitive Edge

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Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to a new episode of the CT O Show with Mehmet Today I have really a very special guest, an entrepreneur who have a very special journey. I would say, as you know, usually I [00:01:00] don't like to steal much from my guests to introduce themselves. So this is why Max, welcome to the show. I will leave it to you to introduce yourself, tell us a bit more about you, your journey.

And then what you are currently up to, and then we can start the discussion from there. 

Max: Sure. Thank you for having me on the show. I am Maxwell Ivey, known as the Blind Blogger. I am a, uh, accessibility expert working to help businesses leverage the disability community and to think about it in a more positive, uh, approaching it from the benefits as opposed to focusing so much on the fear of.

Negative publicity, lawsuits, or regulatory challenges because there are so many good reasons to invest in accessibility and inclusion. Uh, when I started off in a family of carnival owners, and I did that for many years before my dad's death caused our traveling show [00:02:00] to go out of business in other parts of the world, y'all would refer to it as a fun, fair or a fairground rides operator.

Uh, I needed something to do with myself, so I started a website helping people sell their surplus amusement equipment. In 2007, the internet was much less accessible than it is now, so I had to teach myself to code HTML just to get online. Uh, I had to learn a lot of other things about being an online business owner, and people were inspired by that and asked me to share more.

So I started the second website as the blind blogger and named people had been using for me online. Mainly because I was one of the few disabled people that was willing to be open about their disability at that time. When most were hiding their disabilities out of fear, it would stigmatize them in this new online world.

Um, from there I went into life coaching and also to podcast guest booking before finally finding my perfect place in accessibility. [00:03:00] Uh, really I have to credit Alex Sanfilippo, the owner of Pod Match and the great people over@audioi.com, which is an enterprise level accessibility company for helping me understand that I've got all these years of lived experience in the field and that I really should be sharing that knowledge and experience with the world and helping them realize the, the benefits of doing the right thing.

Mehmet: Great. And thank you again very much Max, for being with me here today. And I, yeah, shout out to, um, to, to, to the team of POM match and everyone, you know, who, who allowed, you know, many hosts and guests to connect to together. So a shout out to, to the whole team there. Um, I want to, you know, start from, from the journey and thank you for sharing that.

But you talked about, you know, the decision to go out. And, you know, don't hide, you know, the, the, the, the, the, [00:04:00] the situation you had. Whereas a lot of people you mentioned they have this fear sometimes they, what was kind of, you know, the, the trigger for you to do that Max? Like when did you decide to do this?

What was the main reason you decided to, to do it? 

Max: Yes, I would like to say that I was socially minded. That I was courageous. The truth is, is I grew up in a business where you put yourself out into the world. If you didn't promote yourself, you didn't eat, and. So I really couldn't think of a reason why not to be open about my disability online.

The other thing that my dad taught me from an early age is Max, if you, if you don't ask for help, it's gonna take you a lot longer to get things done. There may be many things you won't be able to do at all, or they'll take you a lot longer. So I had this built in understanding that asking for help was totally okay, which is a superpower that most people don't have.

Uh, I gotta thank my dad for instilling that in many other [00:05:00] great lessons in me. But because I, I had that freedom of asking for help when I was struggling with how to accomplish a particular short-term goal on my website or even some of the long-term goals. I would send emails, I would post on social media as it came along.

And so people knew I was blind. And the funny thing is a lot of them knew I was blind, and some of them, after they visited my website, they would comment as if they didn't know I was blind because of the way I conducted myself on. Social media, but since you, I was putting myself, like I said, I just never thought about not doing it, and I honestly didn't realize it was a big deal until recently.

I was speaking at a conference and one of the people that was there with me said, you know, max, if it weren't for you, and people like you, most people with disabilities would still be hiding their challenges online. They would be scared that disclosing, that's the word we used. Uh, could cost them work [00:06:00] or, uh, public opinion would go against them.

Uh, so you are, you know, a trailblazer in this arena. And it's, it, like I say, it's one of those things it took me a while to understand and to accept. But you know, when I started, I was the blind blogger because most people online didn't know there were other blind people blogging and, uh, writing articles and writing books, whatever.

Uh. Nowadays, you go online, you can't go 30 seconds on Facebook or LinkedIn without seeing an emoticon or emoji in somebody's profile or somebody's post or in their business names or in their taglines. So I feel really good that my lack of understanding how, how, how scary something should have been did, you know, allowed me to do it, and then helped me allow other people to do it.

Mehmet: This is really very inspiring, max. Um, you also [00:07:00] taught yourself HTML to get online, as you said, like how that experience of building your own solutions shaped the way you think about the technology in general and how you saw it. Like also I would say, um, progressing over, over the time. 

Max: You know, I, I've thought about that lately and I, I'm, I, I sometimes feel that coding HTML of, you know, deciding, okay, there has to be a solution.

This isn't the best or most elegant solution. It isn't the most efficient use of my time, but it's what I can do that, that sometimes keeps me from pointing out issues with software today that it makes me more hesitant to. Call out people on social media or, uh, make a complaint to one of the regulatory bodies.

And, and part of that is just I've gotten used to just, you know, figuring out a way to get things done. Um, [00:08:00] another little part of it is when you grow up in the amusement industry, you don't generally like people who sue people. So us ex carneys are usually the last people to want to take somebody into court.

But I feel like. I'm only only really starting to challenge people to make their software better, make it totally accessible, easy to use, and affordable in a way, I wasn't even just a couple of years ago because I was able to teach myself HTML. 

Mehmet: When you look now at all these tools, like the AI tools that we have, did you, do you wish that you had that back that time?

Because today you, you know, you can literally just, you know, using Voice Ask Chat GPT or any other tool to, you know, teach Android code to you. 

Max: Yeah. Well. Yes and no because I would love to have the new tools if the new tools work. The sad thing is a lot of the AI [00:09:00] tools do not work for me any better than Wizzywig worked for me in 2007, and and there are two reasons for that.

One is. The people building, the AI engines and the AI based apps are not building them with adaptive technology users in mind. They don't take the time to understand how we navigate pages and screens and texts. So the, the, those things are, are not as accessible. I mean, um, right now I am not, I'm still not editing my podcast because none of the AI based editors will allow me to use them the way you use them.

And then the second part of AI is people just don't understand that a lot of this AI stuff is developing content that real world, real live individuals are depending on for the success of their business. And this content is not being tested for accessibility. And you know, the old garbage in, [00:10:00] garbage out.

Well, if. Actually, a better example is a manufacturing example. If you take a prototype and somebody takes a hammer to the prototype before you start it down the assembly line and puts a dent in it, every unit that comes off that assembly line will have that exact same dent. And it's kind of like that with AI generated content with, uh, human built templates with, um, anything you build that's supposed to make it easier for someone to.

Um, to create things for their website or their customers. If it isn't being tested to make sure that the output is going to be accessible, then again it's creating a problem. So, yes, I love the idea of ai. I'm, I even love it knowing that it could eventually cost some people with disabilities their livelihood, and they may have to.

Train themselves yet again to do another type of work. But it's the promise of [00:11:00] AI is more interesting than the current actual deliverables of ai. 

Mehmet: Now, you mentioned something Max, which is important I think, to to, to explain it to the audience and you know, probably for people who maybe intentionally or unintentionally I would say.

You know, they, they forget to think about designing, you know, with, uh, I would say it consciousness that, you know, when you need to design, you need to take into consideration everyone. Right, right. So from your perspective, why. These tools, websites, products still fail when it comes to real usability. And what could, you know, what are like some, I mean, you know, it's a loaded questions and feel free to take your time answering that and, and what makes a good example of a truly accessible design that you know it makes [00:12:00] better for everyone, not only just for people with disabilities.

Max: Right, right. So at, and the last part of your question there is a great part, is a great thing to, to, to focus on, which is, uh, creating a truly inclusive design for everyone. And the reason I pointed to that particular part of your question is because whenever we design for accessibility, we improve the user experience of everyone else who doesn't have a disability.

And there are a couple of great examples of that. One is dark mode. Nowadays everybody knows about dark mode, but originally dark. Originally dark mode was a thing done for people losing vision who had to use large screen magnification of say 8, 10, 12, or 14 times normal size print. And by being able to invert the colors to a white on, on black background.

Uh, lowered eye strain allowed them to comprehend the information better, and that's something [00:13:00] that's been done in the visually impaired community going back before the internet back into the seventies and early eighties even. But now it's, you know, it's one of those things that helps people using mobile devices to see their devices in high and low light.

It also helps people using the full size screens who are at their screens, you know, lots of hours every day. So Dark Boat is one of those things that grew out of trying to make things easier on the, on the visually impaired. And so we, uh, I, I think the most imp I think a couple things that we really need to think about when we're looking at inclusive design.

One is that, uh, the. Design. When we design out of fear, we only worry about the minimum requirements. We worry about the, uh, web content accessibility guidelines or in the us uh, the DOJ 5 0 8, or in, in other parts of the world, the European Accessibility Act. [00:14:00] But when you're designing for those standards, you can create a website or an app that is compliant.

But still not, in my opinion, highly usable by somebody with a disability. So if you're going to be totally inclusive to the design process, has to either improve, include people who have a variety of disabilities, or it has to include people who understand how the, the adaptive technology works and how somebody using adaptive technology navigates a screen.

And that's, that's a little hard to, that's a little hard to teach, but it is something that, that can be learned, uh, if an individual or an organization wants to spend the time. I do agree with you. Many people don't have the time or they, uh, they have yet to educate themselves because they either don't know that they need to, or they've got so many other things that they've gotta be figuring out as a business owner that they just [00:15:00] don't have time for.

One more thing that they're not familiar with. So it's, it's not a vendetta, it is just, uh, overwhelm and a little bit of fear. But again, we des when we design out of fear. Uh, I had a woman on my podcast a while back, she said, she said, max, if I go to my kids and I want them to clean their rooms, and I threaten them with losing their video games or having to not leave the house.

She said they'll clean the room, but I'll have to go out. When I go in there. There'll be stuff under the bed, there'll be stuff behind the stuff in the closet, she said. But if I can make them understand why it's important to have a clean room, like if they have a clean room, they'll be able to find their stuff more quicker and more easily, or, um, they won't run outta things or things that they really care about will last longer.

So if I can make them understand that they, they. They need or walk to clean the room, then they do it to a whole different standard. And that's the way it is with accessibility because you can meet the WCAG [00:16:00] standards and I've been on many websites that were compliant. You know, you could run a checker like Waze or uh, WordPresses WordPresses Checker on them and they would come out, you know, highly accessible but still not be enjoyable to use.

So, uh, reach out to people. In your personal community, in the business community, use social media. Try to bring in people who have disabilities, who can advise you on how the technology is actually used, um, or, uh, invest in training for people that you do have on your team. I'm gonna give you a couple examples of how I navigate the world that may help your listeners, if that's okay.

Mehmet: Yeah, sure. 

Max: Okay. So for example, uh, with a screen reader, the first thing you have to know is that in order to make the adaptive tech run alongside the OS and other software, they have to disable the mouse. So most of us, especially screen reader [00:17:00] users and uh, people using mechanical switch devices, we do not have a mouse.

We can sometimes simulate a mouse. But that's not reliable, and I can't tell you how many times I got to the end of a form and wanted to press that submit or purchase button and couldn't, because it was set up needing a mouse click and I couldn't, I couldn't do a mouse click. So, uh, it's really important that you bill for keyboard navigation first, because that's mostly what we do.

Um, generally I navigate from the top left to the bottom right of a screen using tab and shift tab. Um, I have commands I can use with my arrow keys to go by characters, words, box of texts and pages. I can do a search for a particular text or for a particular link to text and then route my cursor to it.

Uh, but there's a, a limit to what I can do as far as navigation. So a website that may meet the [00:18:00] WCEG may still be, uh. May still give me trouble and I might still not enjoy it. Uh, another thing that I highly encourage people to do this is not in WCAG, for example, but in my opinion it should be when you use adaptive technology, it takes you a lot longer to process information to navigate all the, the links, texts, and buttons on the screen to find the thing you need.

So, um. After keyboard navigation, you should really take a minimalistic approach to your website or your app. The more things you can either eliminate or move to a second, third, or fourth screen or page, the better that is for somebody using adaptive technology. Uh, the third thing I would tell people is use a simplistic approach whenever possible.

I understand some websites and apps, the purpose of. Uh, that product requires some fancy [00:19:00] coating, but in general, anytime you add something that can be, you know, a little more robust, you run the risk of creating an accessibility issue. And it's, it's surprising what some of those things can be. I, I can't tell you how many times I've gotten locked in a website because of the modal for their email signup, which.

I've never understood why I'm supposed to decide whether or not to sign up to somebody's email list before I've even visited their website. But if I can't find my way to the button to close that link, I may have to close my browser or even have to, uh, restart my computer in some cases. And I think you can guess I'm not coming back to that website if that's the case.

And we don't think of mods as high tech as far as, uh, website items, but sometimes they can be so. And I would say a last thing is focus on the most important reason why you're building a site or an app. If you make the most important things, the most important thing, [00:20:00] then you can also streamline the amount of information somebody like me has to go through.

So those are four things I can, I can talk to people that aren't necessarily in the WCAG or technical things, but I think they get you in the right frame of mind and get you off to a right start, which is keyboard navigation. Uh, simplistic design, minimalistic approach and make the most important thing, the most important thing you know.

Now, beyond that, one of the best things you can do is use your headings. 'cause headings are like skimming a page for us. It makes it easy for us to crossover lots of information, assuming the heading structure is well built and is, uh, explanatory as to. What information would be found in a heading if I chose to review the information within the heading?

Um, making sure that all your buttons and links are labeled and that the label is in agreement where, with where it's gonna send me if I [00:21:00] press on them. Uh, and if you have a form, whether it's a simple email signup or an advanced shopping cart, run the thing yourself. F make sure you can navigate it, because I used to think, man, I should get these people to pay me just to test their forms.

And then I started, then I started finding out most people would find this stuff in their forms if they would just try to fill out their own form before they start putting it on their website. Um, I, I, I interviewed, I was interviewed by a gentleman a while back. He said, yeah, max, I used to work at a furniture company.

And one day for just for the heck of it, I decided to, to try entering my information in our sales form. He said after I realized how frustrating it was for me, we estimated we were losing hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in card abandonment because people were frustrated with our form. And he said, that's just cited people frustrated with my forties, that I wouldn't wanna know what the blind people would've thought about it.

So. You know, test your [00:22:00] website, visit your website. You know, I know lots of us are so busy we have to hire somebody to do it, but visit your website. Try your Forbes, sign up to your own email list. Those are some simple things because you know I mentioned how when we improve accessibility and improve user experience, another thing that happens is if we focus on the user experience.

And that's one thing that Alex at Podash does really well, is being customer focused. When we focus on the user experience, a lot of times we eliminate accessibility issues without even knowing we're doing it. 

Mehmet: Uh, you know, like this is a treasure, I would call it for, for people who want really to design and put, you know, the user first rather than, as you just said, like maybe sometime they even don't test, you know, what, what they are building.

And some people, I saw them falling in the trap of, you just gave a lot of examples, but the ones that you know. I've seen people fall in this trap, like let's say, [00:23:00] implementing things, which should they should not do, like for example. You know, these long pages is even, I, I hate them sometimes because, you know, uh, you know, and why you do this and you don't have even, you know, the, what you call them, these markers that will bring you up and the menu disappear when you scroll down, and then you have to scroll all the way up.

So whether with keyboard or mouse and other thing, the dark mode also as well. So, yeah. Now you, you mentioned something also Max, even in the introduction about, you know, the, the legal aspect. And here, you know, I want to just like highlight. Things and you know, ask your opinion also. So it's not only about the legal risks, right?

So when, when you put accessibility first as a mindset, let's say in your designs, do you agree with me that also you as a business, whatever you're trying to do, you have the trust, the brand loyalty also, and better long-term customer retention. Do you agree with me [00:24:00] on this? 

Max: I, I love it when a host just puts the ball on the tee for me like that.

Uh, so I, I, I really appreciate the way you asked that question and absolutely, definitely. It, uh, it does help. And the important part of your question was, um, when they're making the effort or when they're trying to, um, because that's one of the most important things I like to get across when it comes to accessibility, is that.

Um, we don't expect perfection. In my opinion, perfection on the website is not possible if for no other reason then a, a healthy business and a with a healthy website is constantly growing or changing. So maintaining accessibility is one of those things that's a progress, not a perfection. But I'm going to share with some, some information to make this point very clear as far as the benefits to your, your business growth and to your brand identity.

Um, to start with the. Most people will agree that the, there is a large number of [00:25:00] people with disabilities in our world today. Um, the general assumption is it's one in six, which would be over a billion people. However, most of those stats come from government agencies or, uh, market research companies, and they depend on the person that they are talking to, identifying as having a disability.

So that one is six is just the people who are willing to write on a box or put their hand up and say, yeah, I'm disabled. That doesn't include generally people with, uh, autism, A DHD, other neural developmental disabilities, because quite often out of fear of, uh, stigmata, stigmatization by their friends, family, coworkers, or bosses, they won't admit, they will do what's called masking and purposely hide their disabilities.

So we have this huge chunk of people who don't have an obvious physical disability, um, that decide out of self interest to hide their, their, uh, cognitive or [00:26:00] mental or emotional disability. That's a large group. We also have people who are aging and people who are aging. They will have the same problems.

They will have vision loss, hearing loss. Decreasing cognitive ability, decreasing motor skills, but they will never see themselves as disabled, even though they need the same assistive technology, the same accessibility features as someone who identifies as having a disability. So in my anecdotal research, uh, just, you know, living my life online and in person, I feel like it's probably more like about one and three have a disability globally.

If we include the people who mask and the people who just don't see themselves as disabled, but that's just the tip of the iceberg because those of us who do have an identify as this as disabled, we tend to be very loyal consumers. That's because such a small [00:27:00] percentage of the internet especially, or products, physical products and services, uh, are being made accessible or being delivered in an accessible manner.

Uh, it is currently estimated that less than 5% of the internet is totally accessible, and that's after over 10 years of the US at least having a law saying that the internet has to be accessible. So we're still at less than 5%. And so we generally support businesses that are making the effort, and we will stick with them through good times and bad times.

We will also often overpay for products because we see the accessibility feature as a value added proposition. Now, we shouldn't have to see things that way, but we do because we want, you know, we want stuff there. There are things we need that everybody else needs. There are things we want that everybody else.

And so the companies that make the effort, we, we want to help them as much as we can. [00:28:00] Uh, the other thing be besides the person with disabilities are the friends, family members and coworkers, and just those socially conscious individuals who want to support businesses that are making an effort to be inclusive of people with disabilities.

But beyond the numbers and the loyalty, there's advocacy. Because we will promote businesses making the effort again. We wanna see 'em succeed. So we tell our friends and family, we post to social media. I like to say that when you improve accessibility, it's like inviting influencers that you don't have to pay.

And it's sad how many people with disabilities have huge followings on their YouTube and other online content. But still haven't been discovered or leveraged by national or local or international brands. But we are definitely out there pushing products and services, making the [00:29:00] effort. Uh, so you add, you know, if you multiply the, the, the actual numbers, times the potential numbers, times the loyalty, times the advocacy, it's a, it's a number None of us can afford to ignore.

But it's still a challenging proposition to build accessibility, but it's, it is definitely something worthwhile because, um, you know, last year they say people with disabilities spent $21 trillion globally. Mm-hmm. Now, globally, that's still, that sounds like a big number globally. That's still a small number.

But here's the really cool thing, because there are so few, few people doing accessibility. You could be able to stand out among bigger, more established companies by embracing people with disabilities. And one of the places where I'm really pushing this is to the people building apps [00:30:00] because, you know, the, the internet as far as a lot of the software and app application app, you know, smartphone apps, a lot of this stuff is concentrated among companies with lots of resources.

But the, one of the really backwards things that I've noticed over time is the companies with the team teams and financial resources to do accessibility, right, are usually the ones not doing it or doing it poorly. So this is a place where a small business owner can definitely stand out and build a loyal brand.

And even compete with the big dogs by making the effort. And that's the important thing to remember at the, at the end of it, with accessibility, it's making a sincere effort. And there are lots of people out here willing to help you with that. I did mention earlier there's a, you know, WordPress has a checker, Waze has a free checker.

Um, me [00:31:00] personally, when I do podcast interviews like this for this particular audience, I always offer. To review the, uh, audience's, uh, first page, their homepage for free. If they'll reach out to me and say they saw me on the podcast, because I feel like if the homepage is good, the rest of the website will be pretty good.

Mm-hmm. And I know every time I help somebody, there's a possibility that I'm helping hundreds or thousands or millions of people with disabilities because of improving a site or a blog or a podcast. You know, I can only do the homepage. But that can be a great start for somebody, especially for small businesses.

And it, and it can also give people a sense of, um, maybe not security, but maybe a little comfort. 

Mehmet: Right. You know, you, you just, you know, uh, naturally connected to the, my next question, uh, actually, now you, you, you, you've done hundreds of podcasts. You, you, you spoke to a lot of people in this field, and of course I know like.

Also you've done, you've [00:32:00] done, and you still do some advisory work. So when you come and talk to someone about this, a business leader Max, what have you seen works best? Is it like just telling them data, telling them personal stories or like the impact that you just talked about? What have you seen the most resonating.

Aspect that push them. Yes. You know what, max, we need to do it. We need to check what, what we have done regarding accessibility. 

Max: Right. Well, it's a, it's a combination of things. Sometimes you talk to somebody and their initial reason for being interested is compliance. Their, their starting point is fear, but it's still a starting point.

So you're in the door, you're working with their team. And you have an opportunity, uh, to, to share some stories, to give them some positive examples why they should go beyond the [00:33:00] minimum standards. Um, other people, they've got some curiosity or they're, they're generally good people working hard to just overwhelmed.

And so they're, again, if you can give them some tangible reasons why, um, they should care about it. Then you can get them started. Um, some people, if you can help them better understand what the costs are going to be, because even though I can tell them that the investment is definitely worth the investment, um, a lot of people are always gonna worry, how much time and money is this going to take me?

And so. You know, reassuring them as far as the, the time and, and the money aspect. One of the things that I do when I work with somebody on a website, and I learned this working with Alex, but I'm, I've carried on to my other clients, is, um, we don't have to fix everything today. So the, the, one of the things I can, I can do to help with overwhelming fear is to go, [00:34:00] okay, what can you fix?

What can we fix today with your current resources? And what can we wait on until next week, next month, or next year. And in the meantime, um, I help them create a workaround and communicate that workaround to their users and potential users so that they don't create any, any hard feelings why they're navigating accessibility.

Because as I mentioned, it's, there's something they're trying to do while they're doing everything else, while they're, and if you're in that, those early stages of trying to grow a business. A lot of times you don't have a lot of what we call bandwidth to take on new projects. So, and sometimes a company is using third party, uh, content, open source content to build their website in the early days.

So sometimes you just have to say, Hey, um, they can't do anything about this 'cause this isn't their code, but you know, we can work on that. Down the road. So I would say [00:35:00] prioritizing the most important accessibility needs and, and, and helping people see that we're not gonna disrupt their business by making this all happen yesterday is something that works.

So it really just depends on the individual, the business, where they're at in their, in their business life. And, um, some people are only gonna be interested in compliance. Some people are gonna be customer focused. And when they realize that improving accessibility. Helps all their other customers, they're gonna be in, um, those who I can under help understand it's not gonna cripple their business while we do it.

Those are usually in, so a lot of this, it just, just starts by figuring out who I'm talking to, what kind of business owner I'm working with. And um, the other thing I've learned is, is that beyond the conversation I'm having with the business owner. I have to remember that they're talking to other people at the same time and they could be talking to people who are trying to talk them out of doing [00:36:00] accessibility at all through, uh, mainly through fear, through, you know, reminding them what it'll cost and telling them, well, can you even be sure that this will benefit your business?

Will the people with disabilities buy from you? And that last part is important with B2B companies 'cause a lot of B2B companies are like. Max, you ain't never gonna buy from my company. Why should I care? And I have to remind them, you know, you don't know who's visiting your website or using your app. You don't know who's making the decision.

A lot of your customers could have a spouse, an adult child, a uh, paid employee, a VA doing the research to make their decisions, and that person could have the disability. Right. Since we, since we don't know, we really have to make our websites, uh, available to people of all abilities. People who are able bodied, people who are disabled, people who have certain life challenges, but not others.

And [00:37:00] that's, that's very difficult, which is why I generally try to approach this as, let's make the website as user focused, user friendly as we can any, we'll take care of the accessibility stuff along the way. 

Mehmet: Uh, absolutely a hundred percent. And you know, this is, this is the, i, I don't know if, if I might call it the trap that people falls in forgetting about, especially in the B2B space.

You, because you just mentioned that, uh, max. So, you know, when we say the world company, we assume it. A human behind. But actually companies are humans. And humans can have all the sort of the things like they might, you know, you don't know. And as you said, you never know who would land on your website. And by the way, like it's just something important.

'cause you just mentioned this. So, um, nowadays schools, you know, they give, they give this assignments to. Uh, to students in, you know, to go and search something. And the other day my [00:38:00] daughter came to me and she said like, I'm, I'm, uh, doing a research about company X. I'll not name the company. And then she start to ask these questions and why they have this and why they have that.

So imagine this child, you know, like. They, they, they might also have disability or they might, you know, so, so you need to think about, yeah, it's not only business people coming to your website, it might be anyone. And this is really very important reminder to all businesses, whether you are a, B2B, B2C, whatever you are.

And of course, government, uh, websites also as well. This is a, a, a no no-brainer to, to have you know this, uh, this in mind. Now I want to now kind of ask you something Max more related to. Entrepreneurship. Like you, you are a serial entrepreneur. Um, uh, you, you as from my research, you know, and the, the, the profile you, you put on pod match, um, you traveled solo written award winning books.

You spoke [00:39:00] at conferences now and you did it right. So. This is a topic I always ask people about, but you can be a better, you know, example for a lot of entrepreneurs and founders facing adversity. What do you think is, you know, two things I'm gonna ask you quickly. What do you think is the, the belief about limitation that people, they think, oh, we are not capable of doing this.

We, we, we, that they need to unlearn and. What is the difference between perseverance and stubbornness in your opinion?

Max: Well, um, person difference between perseverance and stubbornness is hard because, uh, you might think something I'm doing is stubborn. I might think something I'm doing is, uh, resilient or perseverance. Um, I recently interviewed a woman for my podcast and um, her name is escaping me right now, [00:40:00] but she. She gave me an excellent answer to this.

Um, she said, max, the problem is entrepreneurs don't like to quit. She said, so, I tell them it's okay to quit, just don't quit on a bad day. So I try to remember that when I, whenever I'm having a bad day. 'cause as you mentioned, I'm a serial entrepreneur. I try to focus solely on the accessibility work, but sometimes I get distracted by, by past work 'cause people know that I did something or enjoyed doing something.

Uh. So I try to remember if something with within what I'm doing is frustrating me, not not to quit on a bad day. Um, but it is, it is a hard thing because to a certain extent, business owners are like addicts. Uh, you know, like we're like gambling addicts to a certain extent. You know, once you've, once you've thrown enough money down into a business, it's hard to back away from it and stop.

That's, and the, and it'll, the same applies to sweat. As opposed to cash and [00:41:00] credit, because for most of my business life, I've, I've depended on effort rather than cash. But the same thing applies. If you have enough of your heart, your soul, your effort into a business, it can be hard to walk away from it.

So that's a, that's a difficult one. I would say spouses are good. Having a circle of people that you de, that you depended on when you started, that you can depend on now. Uh, to help you understand where you're at because there is not much of a difference between a groove and a rut, you know? Um, but as far as, um, you know, doing things that we didn't think we were capable of, overcoming those internal misconceptions, I've had to deal with that because there was a time, you know, maybe a decade or so ago where.

I thought the only, uh, well, for a long time I thought I was a carnival owner and that was the only thing I was ever gonna be capable of. And then there was a time where I thought, [00:42:00] uh, helping people sell their surplus amusement equipment was my thing. But as I've gone through. Do the, the many different smaller tasks that I had to accomplish for the bigger ones, I've realized that I'm capable of so many things.

And in fact, one of my big problems nowadays is, is um, is I'm capable of a lot of things. I'm capable of becoming competent at a lot of things, and I have to really force myself to focus on the things that I'm genius at and not the things that I'm just good enough at. Um. That's one of those hard things because a lot of us will go from thinking, we have no abilities to thinking we have a very limited set of abilities.

And then, you know, you go from saying no, or I can't everything to saying yes or I can do everything. And then eventually you have, you get to the point where you start saying no again. So, uh, but I would say. An important part of, [00:43:00] uh, of doing things that we don't feel like we're ready for is having a community of people that even one really good friend who can tell you that you're better than you think you are when you're being too humble and who can tell you you're not as good as you are when you're, when you're too, when you're too proud of your work.

Um, having that at least one person you can count on to tell you the truth is really important. The other thing is, is. The world is really good at offering us challenges we're not ready for. And I've often thought about this, this way. There's a line in the Bible about how God will never give you a bigger challenge than he thinks you're ready for.

That's paraphrasing, of course. And everybody always assumes, you know, that means a negative challenge. You know, loss of a child, a car wreck, um, losing, you know, negative challenge. But it also applies to positive challenges. And I like to say that he's, he's good at [00:44:00] giving us, uh, dreams that come with, uh, batteries not included and some assembly required.

So, uh, so don't dismiss, automatically dismiss things out of hand because an opportunity comes along. That you don't feel you're ready for yet? Um, the truth is, if we wait around until we feel like we're ready, we're never gonna do 'em. And the really cool thing is usually we don't have to do 'em in, you know, like huge jumps.

Um, I don't remember who, whose book it was, but I listening to a book, the guy said, if somebody asks me to jump off of a cliff, how, how would be the best way to jump off of a cliff? He said, I'd always tell him, find the very lowest cliff you could find. You know, and so opportunities will come into our lives.

Either, um, we will seek them out or we will subconsciously be thinking about them and they will come along, [00:45:00] or people who know us or know about us or reach out to us and go, I think you would be good for this. Um, you know, have you ever thought about trying it? For example, I never really wanted to have a podcast.

I started doing podcast interviews in 2013 to promote first selling rides and then coaching and, and then, uh, podcast work. But Ed hosts would go, max, when are you gonna have your own podcast? You'd be great at this. And I'm like, I don't think that I can handle the technology at the same time as having a conversation or recording myself talking.

And so I really wouldn't consider it unless somebody was gonna help me with that. You know, far be it for me to realize that was like asking the world to give me somebody. And so Fred by, from Canada, he calls himself the crazy Kuck. Um, he showed up and said, max, how, how about if I do all the technical stuff and you just have to talk?

So then I didn't have an excuse and we started the What's Your Excuse podcast? And I did that with him for about six months or so. And [00:46:00] then finally he stepped away and I started doing it by myself. I haven't done it every week. I'm not as consistent as I would like to, but you know, now I have a new podcast called The Accessibility Advantage, where I focus on thought leaders and business leaders who can help me make the case for the need for accessibility or help people better understand how to go about embracing, uh, inclu, including people with disabilities.

But, you know, I did not wanna do a podcast, didn't think I could do a podcast. An opportunity came along for me to do part of a podcast and then eventually a whole podcast. So there are probably opportunities in your life. There are probably things you've been thinking about doing, and I would say this, if there's a dream or a goal you have, then ask yourself, is there anything that I would have to do in order to accomplish this goal that I'm capable of doing right this minute?

Uh, in fact, I have what I call my four questions, methods of solving a [00:47:00] problem. And so what I tell people to do is first make a list of everything you think you're gonna need to have or learn in order to accomplish a goal. Don't worry about the list being complete, 'cause I guarantee you're gonna leave stuff off of it that you'll discover later.

And take each item and ask yourself one, can I do this? And if you can do it, then go ahead and take action on it immediately. Don't talk about it. Just go ahead and do something related to that one item. If you can't do something, then can you learn how to do it? If you can learn how to do it, then take action towards learning, whether that's watching podcasts, um, connecting with a mentor, taking a formal course in a college or some other training program.

If you can't do it or learn how to do it, can you get somebody else to do it for you? And yes, that can mean hiring people can also mean asking friends. Um. Signing up for, uh, programs at colleges where [00:48:00] they, uh, where they provide interns. It can be just people reaching out to you, like it's happened to me many times in my life where they offer to do things for you or offer to do them at a reduced price or offer you installment plans so that you can.

Take advantage of their services and have them do things you're not great at. So then if you can't do it, learn how to do it or get somebody to do it for you, then you put it off to the side, which I know is hard. But you want to put those things off to the fourth column of things you just can't do anything about right now, and focus on the things that you do have some control over.

And then every few weeks or a few months, go back and look at what you have in each column and see which items you can move. Say from can't do anything about it, to now you know, somebody you can get, do it for you. Now maybe you're making enough money, you can hire a va, whatever. So those are my four questions that I use for solving problems or for, for outlining, accomplishing a goal.

And I hope that helps [00:49:00] your listeners who are on defense about building an app or starting a new business. 

Mehmet: Absolutely. Actually, I gotta use that also as well, max. So really, um, you know, and, and just very quickly on, on what you said, if, you know, I, I want to just kind of, um, summarize it and agree with you.

It sometimes, you know, we complain about these challenges and you call them positive challenges. And, you know, I discovered, of course this is maybe with age, you know, the, the, the older we get, the wiser, I hope, like everyone is, is feeling the same like me. And then you look back and you say, oh, you know what?

It's good that that thing happened. Which I thought it was bad, but actually it turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me and I never knew about it. So this happened a lot of time. And indeed, you know, um. This mindset is very important, of course, if you're building business, but as well, using it in, in your personal life.

Um, really I [00:50:00] enjoyed the conversation with you today, max. So as a final call to action, so where can people get in touch and learn more? 

Max: Right. So I hope they will visit my website, the accessibility advantage.com. They're welcome to send me an email toMaxwell@theaccessibilityadvantage.com and, um. Most everything I do is posted to LinkedIn over there on Maxwell Ivey and it's Ivey, as in Victor, ey for some strange reason, the Iveys who came to this country and settled in South Carolina put an E in there.

I don't know why. Um, but Maxwell Ivey over on LinkedIn, the accessibility advantage.com, and I do hope you'll reach out to me. I, I'm not one of those people that you have to be ready to hire, book or buy something from in order to have a conversation with, because. So many great things in my life have happened due to having an unscripted conversation with somebody I didn't know five minutes ago.

Um, and I, the other thing I like to tell people is, is I would [00:51:00] rather answer an awkward question than to make people guess. So, um, you know, if you, if you want to, you wanna talk to me or email me, don't worry about offending me. You know, don't worry about am I using the right words or whatever. Just think of it as two people who have a, who have questions or want to have a conversation about subjects that they have, have, have mutual interest in.

So I've appreciated our conversation as well. And just as a, an aside to what you said about learning from age, Yogi Berra once said that, um, that, um, that you, that that youth is wasted on the young. 

Mehmet: Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. Well, uh, so for, for, for the listeners, you can find the links that Max just mentioned in the show notes.

Um, we are available, as you know, on all podcasting platforms. Um, also if, if you're seeing this on, on YouTube, you can see them in the [00:52:00] description. Um, this is, uh, how I add my episodes. This is for the audience. Uh. Maybe we are airing this, and I'm very transparent with my audience. We are, you know, recording this on 30 December, 2025, but I'm, I'm broadcasting this probably in the second week of Jan, so happy new year if I didn't say in the previous episode.

And thank you for your support. Thank you for, you know, listening. Thank you for, uh, tuning in. Thank you for, you know, making the show really. Uh, reached milestones last year, which I wouldn't imagine having, you know, the ranking in, in the top 200 Apple podcast charts every single week in different countries.

So thank you for all the people who tuned in from wherever you are and, uh, for people who just discovered us. Now, I hope you enjoyed this discussion, and if you did so give me a favor. We're trying to do an impact. This [00:53:00] podcast is all about. Inspiring people, you know, getting them to move forward, whether in their career, in their life, maybe you're gonna start a business, maybe you're gonna change job.

So I'm hoping, you know, with all the different aspects I'm, I'm covering, and I'm gonna continue doing this in 2026 to push you forward. So. Share this with your friends and colleagues. And also don't forget to give us a rating on all the podcasting apps. This is really important, especially in 2026. Things are changing, so we need your help and you know, your push so we can reach more people.

And as I say, always stay tuned for new episode very soon. Thank you. Bye-bye.