#555 From Silicon Valley to MENA Scale: Khaled Nazif on Loyalty, Leadership, and Building DSquares

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Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to the new opposite of the Ct O Show with me today. I'm very pleased joining me, and I'm excited when ha I have someone from our region joining me. So I have the chief, uh, operating officer for DSquares, Khaled Nazif, [00:01:00] Khaled. As I was telling you just now before we start the recording. I don't like to spend much time on behalf of my guests to speak because I like to hear, you know, the intro from them.

So, without further ado, first of all, thank you for joining me here today. Tell us a little more about you, your journey, and you know, what brought you to this quest. And then we're gonna discuss a lot of things with you today regarding this quest about loyalty reality here in in the region, and what you're doing with these squares.

And of course some stories from both Silicon Valley and MENA region. So the floor is yours. 

Khaled: Thank you very much, ma. It's, uh, pleasure to be on the CTO show. Been an avid follower and, uh, uh, love the opportunity. So thanks again, uh, to join in. So, as you mentioned, I am the COO, uh, at DSquares. Uh, my name is Khaled Nazif.

Um, uh, and I, uh, did uh, DSquares. A quick intro is, uh, is one of the leading, uh, white labeled, uh, loyalty solutions provider. In the MENA region. Um, uh, and I've, I've, uh, joined DSquares around five years [00:02:00] now, uh, which means I'm not one of the, the original co-founders 'cause DSquares turns, uh, 13 years, uh, today.

Um, but, uh, uh, I did join to replace one of the co-founders and I can shed some more light on that later on. Uh, but prior to these, uh, five years, uh, I spent the previous eight years. Um, in, uh, uh, Palo Alto, California. So living the whole sort of kind of Silicon Valley, uh, dream. Uh, where I started, I kicked it off with a two year MBA at, uh, Stanford, uh, and, uh, got bit by the startup bug there and, uh, uh, launched my, my own, uh, B2B SaaS startup.

Uh, from there, which were, which aim to rev revolutionize, um, the contact center, uh, industry. Um. That later on, after a few years, uh, good run later on, led me to Zendesk, uh, which at the time was one of the leading customer support, um, uh, software providers. So you can see I'm kind of a CX [00:03:00] aficionado at at heart.

Uh, I'm an engineer by training, so you'd like that as well. But, uh, but, uh, that's, uh, that's my story of, uh, how I ended up after a good, uh, four years at Zendesk. Um, uh, the decision was to return to Egypt, uh, where, uh, I was brought up and, uh, and uh, uh, where I did my undergrad. Um, and d scores was the perfect landing spot, um, for that return for sure.

Mehmet: Great. And thank you again Khaledli for, uh, making it today. I know how busy it can be, especially for someone in, in your position. Um, let, let's start discussing a little bit because I gotta return about, you know, the founder stories and, you know, the scaling. But let's talk about DSquares, right? So, DSquares, as you mentioned, like.

13 years old company. And you know, when, when you joined, I think, um, they were, the focus was maybe mainly on [00:04:00] the, you know, it was an Egyptian company, uh, but now it has a massive market and this is a massive leap. Right? So what, what were the first, I would say, few things you focused on when, when you joined to make that expansion possible.

Khaled: Definitely, definitely let, lemme give a bit of background on how we spent these, kind of, the eight years before I joined. Um, sure. I like, I like to al always call DSquares sort of as the best kept secret in the MENA region, or at least in the startup ecosystem in, in the media region. Right. Um, for that reason you mentioned the, the huge success, um, that was, um, uh, gained, uh, or, or, or done in the.

Uh, in Egypt by gaining more than 85% of the market share. So pure domination there. Um, but then the, it was the time to scale the success beyond borders and take it and replicate the success, um, within the region. Um, uh, and we did [00:05:00] that over the past, uh, uh, past couple of years with offices in more than eight countries in the region, uh, serving more than 16 countries.

Um, uh, and, and serving some of the largest of enterprises in the countries, um, where we have presence Now, the reason I keep it, I call it the best kept secret because DSquares is a white labeled, uh, loyalty solutions provider. So I always challenge people, even when talking to a white audience, um, by telling them, uh, like, who's, who here has heard of these squares?

And you see only a few hands. Kind of raising up. Um, but I challenge them by the fact that most probably everyone in the room has used these square, or have used these squares, um, uh, in one way or another without them even knowing it. Um, because we do power, uh, the, the loyalty solutions of, again. Most of the telcos and banks, um, uh, oil and gas companies like consumer and, and, uh, enterprise and the B2B, uh, um, in, in the region.

We've, we've also kind of [00:06:00] scaled this to the largest, uh, type of enterprise in, in the countries we serve, which is, as some people might, might forget, is, is the government. Um, so, uh, we do government, uh, loyalty based solutions and a lot of people find this intriguing because like, how are you doing loyalty with government?

Uh, and I can shed a lot more, uh, about that. But that's sort of how we've, we've scaled the business, um, past the original success. Uh, within Egypt today. These, um, large enterprise programs, they're, they're around 70 programs, so a lot of people might think, uh, that's all, that's it. 70 programs. Yeah. But one, one of one program.

I always clarify that. One program is the equivalent of. You know, thousands of SME, uh, uh, clients or, or, uh, Zendesk client, client as I, as I used to, uh, uh, to sell them. And so the, the real signifier of how large these, the platform or this platform is that the end users are now exceeding around 150 million end users, [00:07:00] and the transactions is, is exceeding 2.5 billion transactions.

Um, and so that's, that's the real signifier of, of the. Of the, uh, uh, amount of loyalty we create with our large, uh, partners. Um, so that's, that's the background. That's these squares sort of how, how, how it became and how, how we've grown. Um, but, but a lot could be said on how the original is, uh, we're done, and then how we've kind of scaled, um, uh, beyond that.

Um, so would, would you like me to share some, some more on, on some of the founding stories? 

Mehmet: I, I will come to the founding story, but you mentioned something, which also, it's a kind of a question I prepared, but I thought now it's the time to ask it. You mentioned like some, you know, like intriguing thing, like okay, government doing, um, uh, loyalty programs.

So, you know, this is massive, like 150 million end customers and thousands and 10 thousands [00:08:00] of, of merchant. What do you think people, uh, outside this industry still misunderstand about? Customer engagement, like why do you think there's still the surprise? Because, um, I'm not sure if I can say this because here.

At least, you know, the UAE started at this and I know like other, um, uh, governments are following now when it comes to, you know, like to to to this customer experience. So Dubai is, is leading as government of course, in, in, in this. But, but why do you think there's still this misconception? Uh, or what are like some of other misconceptions you, you hear from people about this, uh, industry.

Khaled: The, the, the misconception is that, uh, and you, you said it right, like, uh, the UAE is definitely a leader in that, uh, in that space, especially when it comes to government. Uh, but a lot of others are still treating the relationship between, and I'll, I'll use the terminology here, uh, the government might use, uh, so between, uh, uh, uh, [00:09:00] the government entity and the citizen, uh, as a transactional, uh, relationship.

Um, and so something that, you know, a citizen requires a service and the government, uh, will do that service as a transaction. There is no, you wouldn't see the same customer engagement that you would see at, uh, you know, some of the, the retail chains or, um, or, or telcos or even banks. Uh, it's just a pure transactional relationship.

Um, uh, and unfortunately you see a lot of that, not only in government, we still, we, but we actually see a lot of that in, uh, uh, cus consumer facing, uh, uh, again, uh, retail or, or, uh, or, uh, enterprises. Um, uh, and that's basically what we're trying to, to change or to change the mentality of is that it's, it's no longer a transactional.

Uh, relationship. It's, um, an engagement relationship. So even with government, we call it a citizen engagement program, um, where you use [00:10:00] loyalty Yes. Which is something inherently seen as a transactional thing. You earn and you, you earn points and you spend them again and so on. But actually you use loyalty.

To, um, to kind of influence, uh, uh, the behavior of, of, uh, of the consumer. In that case, the citizen. So if you want the citizen to, uh, in incentivize them to do a certain, uh, behavior or action, you can. Provide, um, uh, the, the sort of gamify the experience and provide loyalty as the incentive here. Um, uh, as opposed to just, you know, pure transactional, buy something and you earn this and then you get, go and spend it again, and so and so on and so forth.

Um, now, and that's on the government with retailers and others. Um, the way we're taking it beyond transactions as well is that we're, uh, we're definitely working, um, with a lot of, uh, data technologies. Um, and we, we can talk a bit more about that. Um, but we're using [00:11:00] that to create a personalized experience.

And I know that's, yeah, I mean that's, uh, by now that's, uh, commoditized. Everyone is providing personalized experiences, but it really comes into effect with loyalty. Um, uh, where you, you don't give a sort of a one, uh, one box serve all to, uh. Um, to all your end users, I want to stretch, mimic it to a certain goal or to a certain, your incentive will be quite different than my incentive would be quite different than the third, the third person.

Um, and so we're creating these sort of unified personas, um, uh, thanks to the massive data that I've told you about. Mm-hmm. And according, we are able to stretch the goals. So personalize even the goals or the challenges, um, uh, that we are, uh, using to again. Influence your behavior, uh, whatever that behavior is.

Obviously with retailers or, or, uh, with consumer facing platforms, it's [00:12:00] increasing spend or increasing frequency of visit and, and so on. But it could be something completely different, uh, uh, with, with different industries and different uh, uh, clients. Um, and so that's, that's the main, uh, differentiator that's happening today.

Mehmet: Yeah, just really just as a follow up on this, because, um, what you mentioned about, um, you know, the different, I would call them techniques, right? So it's not only the technology, they are, like, the techniques, um, that you're seeing now, uh, playing in, in this sector. So you mentioned like gamification, you mentioned data.

I'm sure ai, you know, plays a big role also here. Um, but do you think there's still something which we can say it's, hmm. If I want to use the right word, like fundamentally broken about how companies try to approach the loyalty today. Like is it like still they have an old mentality, if that makes sense.

Uh, and you know, you're trying [00:13:00] to bring them to your point, like, because they want to achieve something. Um, you know, I always give the example. So, so, so when, when you take a customer from point A to point B. So sometimes the point B, you know, it's, it's so faster, better to an extent that you know. For some people, like, oh, like this is, this is too much for me.

Right. So, and they have this kind of a flu vision. Do you think, you know, with all the things that you just mentioned, in addition to the ai, this is changing a little bit, the landscape of how companies fundamentally look at, uh, you know, loyality in general. 

Khaled: Definitely. The uh, and we're. I would say we are, we're a bit lagging in the region, uh, in realizing or making that realization.

Uh, but these squares has been, you know, benefiting from, um, creating that awareness. Uh, there are, [00:14:00] uh, certain sectors that have the awareness that loyalty is no longer, and that's the, the number one, uh, sort of cha barrier or misconceptions. Loyalty is no longer a cost center, right? Mm-hmm. A lot of people, few view loyalty as a cost center.

And that's a, a big, you know, a deal breaker from the get go, right from the, from the very start of, of launching a program. Um, there are, um, specific sectors and specific, uh, uh, countries, I would say. So I would say it's a cultural thing where you would see that, you know, loyalty is still treated as this transactional thing that you need to minimize.

It's cost as much as possible. You need to do it just to be, uh, um, uh, you know, keep, uh, keeping, uh, uh. Uh, par with the market, but, uh, but it's, it's a cost center and you, you're, you're not investing in the right way, um, um, to, to kind of gamify it as we, as we mentioned, or to personalize it, uh, [00:15:00] or to stretch a consumer's behavior and so on.

While there are other countries and, and Egypt, uh, has proven, uh, uh, so, so has Saudi, for example. Obviously Dubai is again, is, uh, or the UAE is quite advanced in, in that sector. Um, but they have proven that, you know, we've went beyond the, the, the concept of loyalty as a cost center and we're now, you know, treating it as a revenue driver, um, for sure.

And so let's see how we differentiate in that sense. Some people are choosing, you know, the challenges route and, and, and, you know, stretching, uh, people, uh, be, uh, um, beyond their sort of, or having, having the sort of the incentive personalized, um, in order to stretch their, again, spend or frequency of visit and so on.

The, the typical metrics that a loyalty marketer would look like. Look at, um, but other are, others are using it, um, as sort of, it's no longer this direct route. It's, uh, I'll, I'll create advocates who will become referrals and who will [00:16:00] help me with acquisition, um, uh, and, uh, and will improve my, you know, net promoter score and create promoters and advocates and so on.

So, so, uh, uh, so there are different tactics. Um, uh, and you still see in the region we are in the Middle Eastern Africa, um, that there are, there are the discrepancies. Um, and we see it all. We, we have, we have offices and, and clients in, uh, Kenya and Tanzania, um, that are treating loyalty as a currency basically.

Mm-hmm. So that's, that's, well, that's beautiful in terms of transactions, but, uh, again, very transactional. Uh, and, and there are, uh, as I mentioned, uh, uh, country or or customers that are treating loyalty as the main revenue driver. It has become so core into the business. That, that, uh, it, it's front and center.

It's something that we review and takes the, and, and, and gets the, um, the attention of their chief revenue officer and, and, and so on, because [00:17:00] they've seen, and they've tasted sort of the, the impact that it does on their top line. Um, so not only on their bottom line or on their retention, it's definitely on the acquisition and on grow, growing their revenue.

So that's, um. That's the beauty of the region where we're at. You know, you get to this diversity and you get the potential as well. You've seen what could ha what could be, and you're trying to bring in, uh, and, uh, a lot of, uh, the customers and sectors to catch up basically. 

Mehmet: Absolutely. Khaled, you wanted to tell me about the original story a little bit, and, um, so of course like you joined, uh, this class, it was like already established.

Yes. So for you. I'm sure you had your own point of view, both as, you know, an operator and as a founder coming from Silicon Valley. Tell me about, you know, that, that phase like, um, you know, maybe something which would benefit a founder who's listening to us also 

Khaled: [00:18:00] True. And a, a lot of people actually, you know, call me up, uh, who are thinking of returning to the region.

You know, whether you, they're founding somewhere in the west, you know, in, in Europe or. In the States and you know, the, you always get that itch of, I wanna return to the region. I can have more, more of an impact. Um, uh, I, I, I have a, a strong network there. Why not utilize it? But there are always the buts, right?

And, and the, uh, in my case, you know, a lot of people would, would warn me and tell me, Hey, you know, you, you've been away for quite so, so many years. Uh, you'll find the work ethic might have changed, or you're no longer accustomed to the sort of the. Hustling and bustling of, of, uh, an emerging, uh, economy like Egypt and the entire region.

Um, uh, and I just, you know, took the jump. Uh, my main advice to everyone is just, you know, uh, you know, just, you know, close your nose and take the take, take, take the jump in. Um, uh, and quite frankly, these squares was the perfect landing spot. [00:19:00] Again, as I mentioned, due to so many factors that I do not see and did not see, uh, in so many other, uh, startups.

Or scale ups, um, is, is is the term I like to use on these squares now. Um. The, the, the thing is, you, you kind of, you, you looked at the founding team, uh, and I appreciated that the most when they, when they started these squares, they, they made sure that they maintained, you know, through bootstrapping, they maintained to be cashflow positive from day one.

Um, mm-hmm. So it did never took that typical startup route where you raise, uh, millions and millions of dollars in funding and you kind of burn that through a ridiculous burn rate. And you raise again because you're achieving some good metrics from a VC perspective, and you kind of raise again and again, uh, and you accordingly, you scale with that, uh, uh, notion.

These scores has never raised, uh, such round and have kept it bootstrapped from day one, from time one to this day. Uh, and the [00:20:00] success where it continues to be profitable and, uh, and positive and growing. Um, now some people might argue and now that that prolonged the scale or the growth. I and in, in practice and what I saw is that that sort of time was needed for the product itself to mature as well.

Mm-hmm. So it gave opportunity, um, for the product to mature in order for it to scale, um, to, to the, to the situation where we're at today. So definitely what was. Sold and deployed 13 years ago at one of our flagship, uh, clients is no longer, like, it's nowhere near what is deployed there today. Um, so much maturity has happened, uh, and that time was, was well spent and, and well gained, well made, made use of, uh uh, and so that's, that's something that you don't see a lot of.

I loved that, uh, the founders were adamant about it, and we kept, we kept it that way and we continued, uh, with that. The other piece is that [00:21:00] they are risk takers. You know, a lot of, a lot of people boast Silicon Valley, like what the Silicon Valley, uh, culture is, what they call it. It's all about, you know, it has a risk taking culture.

It has a, a kind of give back culture, which is what I mm-hmm. Admired the most over there. And I found that here in, in, uh, uh, at these squares where they weren't shy of taking risks still even with the bootstrapping, where you would find a client that asks you, Hey, there, there's an opportunity. There's an RFP in a new country where we have zero presence in, uh, we might not be ready yet.

Not that mature, as I mentioned in the early years. Um, but they took the leap. They took, uh, uh, submitted the RFP. They won the RFP, hired a new team, uh, went, established a new office in a new country. And to, to this day, that was 10 years ago, this client still with us and obviously became an anchor for many, many more clients in that specific country.

Um, and so [00:22:00] these sort of stories and anecdotes you no longer see, um. In, in, uh, sort of the, the gl a romanticized startup story, um, that's, that's in the, in the, in the region, but also worldwide. So I, so I, I loved, uh, I loved that story. Um, the other piece that I loved as well, and you don't see it more that often is, um, so as I mentioned, I came in, um, as COO to replace one of the, one of the original, um, co-founders.

And that's not an easy. Thing to do. And the, the, the person, uh, uh, who's, who's a dear friend, he's the one who kind of poached me from Silicon Valley and encouraged me for my return to replace him. So for you to realize and acknowledge that, hey, I'm a, I'm a builder, and that what he acknowledges, right? He likes to build stuff from scratch.

These squares has reached, uh, a phase where it needs to scale. And not, not, not just building, but needs to scale and I'm gonna hire someone or get [00:23:00] someone, um, to replace me with, with full authority and full position as a sort of a late partner or late founder, um, to take my place. Obviously Aman went out to a spin out, another, uh, sister company, uh, in the FinTech space.

And it's working well for these squares and, and for the, uh, for Lucky, which is our assisted company. Um, but that story on its own for someone to be able to. Know what's best for the company and bring in someone, uh, a new caliber or a new, uh, kind of set of eyes for the new phase. That's something that you, that I have a lot of respect, uh, for, for sure.

Um, uh, and then lastly, you know, you, you see Marwan, who's my partner and the CEO, uh, he, you, you see the passion and that's, that's one last thing that is common to a lot of entrepreneurs. But you see the passion, um, uh, in, in his eyes as he speaks to clients today. It's as if he's speaking to that very first client 13 years ago.

He really loves what he's do, what he [00:24:00] does when talking to clients, when talks about, when he talks about loyalty. And so that's, um, that's the kind of gives the fire, gives us all the fire under our belly. Um, so these were all factors. I know they all kind of revolve around the founding team and the, the extended team, to be honest, but that was the most important piece.

So as I circle back to those that kind of warned me about the work ethic and you know, me, uh, you know, doing a, a 180 and returning back to the states, I thought them, no, actually one of the main things and main factors that are keeping me happy and satisfied and having that sense of impact is the team that I get to work with at DSquares and the impact we're doing together in growing DSquares, um, uh, to scale in the region.

So, uh, that's, that's it. Yeah. 

Mehmet: Yeah. So by the way, like this story is, um. It is impressive and it's, it's rare. Let me, let me be frank with you, Khaledli. It's very rare. Yeah. Uh, and, and you know, like, it's not like because I want to judge the region or [00:25:00] the founders in the regions, but you know, and this is something I'm sure like you heard it also in Silicon Valley, um, like sometimes the question they ask any founder, can you imagine yourself doing the same thing after 10 years, 15 years?

And you know, like just, you just described it right when you said like, Marwan goes and he pitched to customers the same way he was doing it. You know, like when he pitched for the first customer, like of course, like if you ask someone today, would you be able to do the same thing in 10 years? Probably.

They will tell you yes. But you know, the, the proof comes with time. So, uh, but it's very rare. Uh, I would say, uh, maybe some people, they will agree, some people will disagree, but it's, it's when they tell you, and this is a term, I'm sure you agree with me, it's like it's a Silicon Valley term. Like you have skin in the game.

So this is what they call skin in the game. Like you have enough resilience, you have enough. Passion to what you, to what you, you want to achieve. You love what you do. Um, so you know, like you, you are ready to keep doing what you're doing. [00:26:00] Whatever happens and, you know, like it's, it's a big success of having the company fully putt strapped.

Uh, in a very tough, um, market as ours. I would say, especially, I'm thinking like 13 years ago. Of course now it's getting easier, kind of. Yeah. But it's, it's a big, you know, it's a big achievement and it's, it's aspiration I would say, for other entrepreneurs in the region. Now saying that I know, you know, when I was, uh, you know, going through, through the, uh, some of the information the team shared with me bef be before I, uh, do the recording with you.

Yeah. So you describe yourself, um, you know, you know, as someone who did a shift from, uh, you know, pirate hat to Navy hat. Yes. So, how, how does this look like and how does this applies to, you know, the shift that you also did? Uh, moving back to the region and, and, you know, joining these squares. 

Khaled: No. Perfect.

So I actually used that quote, uh, I think Reid Hoffman is, uh, the originally, uh, the one who used it, and he [00:27:00] uses it in the, in the book, uh, called, uh, blitz Scaling, which is perfect for that. Uh, I totally recommend it for anyone in that phase where these squares. Is and continue or was and continues to be, which is that scale up phase.

Um, and that was the perfect timing where I joined in, as I mentioned it, it was a time where these squares kind of needs to let go of the hustling hat and you know, just to go getter. And, and that's very important for a startup for sure. Um, uh, but once you have that, the, the, the number of, you know, enterprises and you need to, uh, maintain a sort of enterprise grade quality and you have that sort of scale that's.

Uh, multicultural, multi, uh, regional, uh, you need to, to put in certain processes. Um, uh, uh, hopefully not as bureaucratic, bureaucratic as it would be in a, in a navy or something, but, uh, it would be with the same quality and level of, of consistence. Um, and that's what we, what, what [00:28:00] sort of I came in, uh, with, uh, as I started the first thing.

Um, and it, it, it touched everything. Um, so the, the first and most important was the people, right? Uh, we needed to be, uh, sort of encapsulate the dis DSquares culture. And so we worked a lot, we did a lot of investment in the people on culture side. Um, you know, I've, I've noticed one of your recent, um, episodes talked about OKRs and, uh, implementing those, uh, uh, within different, uh, sizes or different companies.

Uh, and that's something we've quickly, uh, adopted and implemented and was necessary to make sure that, you know, the, the scale or the, the number of employees are still following the same goal and objective and mission and vision. Um, that was set early on. Um, there's, and I don't want to get too sophisticated, too philosophical.

Sorry about that. But there is a number that, that I like to, to, I've read a lot [00:29:00] about, and it's, it's the one 50 number, um mm-hmm. It's mentioned in the, in the book Sapiens, uh, and many other research, but, uh, but it talks about how that one 50 number is, if you exceed it, you can no longer kinda scale a tribe.

That was the maximum that a tribe back in the sort of, uh, mm-hmm. Or Neander days, uh, you would never be able to exceed that one 50 number, then you would lose the direct relationships. Um, uh, and that's about the time where I joined in as well. We kind of started approaching the one 50 number. We've far exceeded that today.

Um, but as we approached that number and, and exceeded it, we started to lose the, the entire one-to-one relationships, uh, between, you know. CEO in the most recent hire and so on. Um, uh, and so we needed to have other processes to make sure that we're maintaining the culture, maintaining the objectives, everyone's working as if it's one ship, uh, one goal.

Um, and so that's something that we needed to keep in [00:30:00] mind. So I, I'd advise everyone to keep, to be weary of the one 50 number and that scale of employees. Um, uh, but we've exceeded that successfully so far and, and continue to grow. Um, the other piece that this, uh, kind of, uh, uh, putting in some or, or scaling, uh, affected was on the product side.

Um, as you can imagine, again, we had the hustling hat. We, we have one client here that demanded something. We customized for them. Uh, another client, we customized it for them and so on, so forth. Um, uh, but then we needed to, to have products that scale and we started pro, uh, productization, uh, project, uh, or initiative.

I, we call it a project. And that initiative, you know, got into everything that we do. Um, today we have sort of ready made off the shelf products that are customizable still obviously. Um, but, uh, but at least we have, you know, 80% of the work done thanks to the years of, [00:31:00] you know, development, um, that we're now able to encapsulate in, uh, a productized or modularized format.

So that was another thing that we. Made sure we focus on, and one of the things that I, uh, was adamant in building, uh, was the product team, which was, was non-existent. Uh, we, we were, we were kind of, again, a delivery. We, we made the shifts from a sort of a delivery company to a product led company. Uh, and that has helped us, uh, a lot as well.

Uh, 

Mehmet: that's, I'm happy. You mentioned about, uh, two things. So first, you know, the, the, the magical number. Uh, I was looking for it and yeah, of course in the book, uh, I read about it, but always I was wondering. Yeah, I know. It's like one 50. It's like, not necessarily exactly one 50. It could be like 120, it could be 170.

Yeah. Yeah. But I, I made sure when I interviewed on the podcast, any. Uh, founder who were, who was able to scale, I would say, beyond, uh, certain number of employees. Like when they felt, you know, like, yeah, I, I'm, I'm not [00:32:00] now seeing, for example, the new hire people, you know, um, I'm not, for example in anymore in touch with every single one that I used to do.

And yeah, the, this number always like, it's between 120, sometimes 200 if they are really good because, you know, some people call it, I. Notice, yeah. They have an ability, they have a talent of, for example, memorizing names, memorizing even like small details, uh, up to certain number. But of course, even if you are like a Superman, I would say, in, in, in, uh, in, you know, memorizing people names and remembering about their lives and so on.

So you reach a face, you can't, and of course, like it's not only about the people you have like company to run, you have revenue to bring to the company. You have investors of course, if, if you like, just. Fundraised and, and, uh, you have some other like duties. I mean, you have other things in your mind, so you'll not be able, not because you are not good, it's because this is the human capacity.

Like you can't, yeah, you can't do more. Exactly. And you [00:33:00] know what happens usually. And, uh. But I think it's not 150 here, here, it depends also how strong, um, they implemented it. Uh, which I'm talking here about the culture of the company, right? 'cause I was always kind of, again, I'm not philosophical also, but was wondering why, you know, and we saw this in multiple books, like every single business book I've read.

Yeah, we see like always innovation comes from startup, right? And then, or spinoffs, right? Yeah. And then, you know, these companies, they grow, they grow, they grow, and they become, I call them dinosaurs, right? It's not like to, to, to say something bad about them, but like the similarity is like a dinosaur moves slow.

So, so the, the big companies move slow and again, the culture kind of fade because maybe the original founders are not there now. Yeah. From your experience, both, you know, in Silicon Valley and you know now growing, uh, DSquares. The [00:34:00] culture, in my opinion, is underrated still in our region. It's, it's my, again, it's a personal opinion.

Maybe I'm wrong. Uh, and, and by the way, it's underrated even in Silicon Valley sometimes. So we see, we see that the culture fade, uh, after certain amount. Is it the same 150 in Euro opinion, or is it something else? When I talk about culture, I mean, you know. I am not talking about like, uh, going out on Friday night doing a barbecue or like, uh, being friendly and having the ping pong in in the office.

I'm talking about, you know, like really when everyone joins the company, they feel they belong there and they feel this is the, this is their place. I've noticed like after some. I, I don't know the number, but after some while this fades because the company start to become, it's not even a scale up anymore.

It's like a full-fledged company. So what's your opinion about that 

Khaled: now? I think there are a lot of companies that were [00:35:00] able to maintain, uh, the culture beyond, you know, when, when they become a, a full fledged company, as you mentioned, I've seen that in Silicon Valley for sure. I was. Lucky to be at, uh, Zendesk in the Its Glory years where I would argue that it was one of, you know, one of many companies that are called the best places to work.

But, uh, you know, they, they truly embraced, uh, uh, Silicon Valley culture. Uh, and that reflected on how people did a lot of the work, um, uh, at Zendesk at the time. And so that, that kind of influenced me as, as I, again, landed here in, uh, DSquares. Um, and the. Uh, yes. The one 50 number is when you start kind of losing the inherent culture, let's put it that way.

It's, it's, uh, you can argue that there wasn't even a people and culture team, but everyone still had that same culture because they were. You know, drinking straight from the fountain. They're, they're, they're, they're meeting [00:36:00] with the CEO. They're building everything together from scratch. They're, and so it was still transcending to everyone, even if informally.

Um, but beyond that point is where we needed to make sure that it is formally captured. The DSquares identity is being formulated. And it is, people are aware of it and all, all our people and culture object or goals and objectives are serving it. That these squares identity that we want to create. A lot of the times as I speak to, uh, Remi ha our, our PPNC director, uh, uh, and, and you know, we always, I always say I want people when they see, when they see Aquarion or a DSquares employee from, from afar, they would know that they are a DCOS employee just because of the traits that they are.

Um, showing, uh, the, the, the demeanor, the way they do their, they do their work, um, and so on. So, uh, and I've seen that in very large [00:37:00] companies. Um, and so in some of the largest as well, and I'm happy to name, you know, ex ExxonMobil, who's a very good partner of these squares and a and, and a client and award-winning winning client as well.

I'm always in awe in seeing, uh, uh, you know, the, the, the ExxonMobil employees as we deal with them, they all sort of. Have the same basic, the same foundation. Um, no matter what, no matter how diverse they are, it's someone that might be in a, in a, in a department, completely different, uh, different age group, different genders, different everything.

But they're all sharing the same mentality, the same foundations, and you would sense it as a partner, even as an outsider, a close outsider, but it's someone that, this is definitely something that's consistent and they must be doing something right in maintaining that consistency throughout. Um, uh, and so I, I hammer, I, I.

My, my, uh, conclusion or my suggestion is that we really hammer on internal [00:38:00] comms where we really work on, uh, on OKRs. Again, it's, these are the tools that we use today to make sure that, you know, everyone's on the same page. Everyone, everything is consistent. Everyone is sharing the same goal. And it's transcending all the way to, uh, to the most junior of Levins.

And so that's, that's our solution for it. So there, there is hope, uh, for, for, for the region and for all sizes as well. For sure. Yeah. Fantastic. 

Mehmet: Yeah, of course. Like things, you know, great things takes time. This is my, uh, my, my theory always. I want to ask you something related to the ecosystem. 'cause we repeated it, you know, like, uh, about MENA region startup ecosystem and scale ups of course as well.

Yeah, yeah. Uh, versus Silicon Valley. Now I follow both very closely myself, out of passion, first of all. Like, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm also an engineer by trade, so any new thing will attract my attention. Um, [00:39:00] when we have the conversation, you know, about any ecosystem, we, we understand like, uh, nuances, right? So, um, nothing can become a Silicon Valley.

Nothing can become a, you know, a riyabh. Nothing can become Cairo. Nothing can become Dubai because each one of these ecosystem has some uniqueness. But I believe there are few things that we can. Adapt and bring, which if we blend it with our, you know, cultural slash if you want to call it local slash uh, I don't know, uh, unique, you know, trait, we, we can come up with something good.

So, as someone who, who've been in Silicon Valley, first of all, let's start from here. Like, you know, compared to when you left and then you came back, how much, you know. Uh, difference have you seen in, in the ecosystem? Second, what do you think we can, what, [00:40:00] what still we are missing, you know, to, to, to, I'm not saying to become Silicon Valley, don't get me wrong.

There's nothing that can become something, but at least to really establish ourselves as one of the main ecosystems globally. 

Khaled: True, true. Um, I, the, the first differentiator or the main, the main difference I saw. Uh, when I left, I recall there was one VC in a country like Egypt. Uh, and I'm sure with the same would be, you know, very few VCs in, um, in the entire region.

Uh, to start with like, uh, a few well-known names. Um, uh, and in Egypt it was, uh, Avengers. At the time it was called Idea Developers. Even before that. And, uh, in, in the eight years gap? Or, or the, the, the good exp the, the experience in Silicon Valley as I returned this, this is, uh, like, like the access to VC is, is much, is far more, um, than it used to be.

[00:41:00] Um, and I, I think that is because there is a bit more of a risk, uh, risk accepting culture. Um, a lot of people are. Or accept or are seeing the benefits that can come, um, from the startup ecosystem. Um, and so it, it is happening. Um, now a lot of people might disagree in saying, but it's not even enough still.

Like it's access to VCs, it's not enough. There's far more pipeline of startups, uh, and, and we're not. Seeing enough funding coming into the region and and so on. But I would argue that this, this is nothing compared to, to even 10 years before, so. Mm-hmm. Um, but the, the, and so that's, that's the main difference.

Ironically, the one thing that, that I think we can take, do more of is actually accepting failures. So what the whole point behind having a risk taking culture. [00:42:00] Is you accept the, the failure when it happens. Um, uh, it's not take a risk and celebrate the successes, but then failures are, you know, uh, completely bombarded.

Like, like they're, 

Mehmet: yeah. It's 

Khaled: like as a 

Mehmet: catastrophe happened. 

Khaled: Yeah. A catastrophe. Um, in Silicon Valley, failures are celebrated to, to an annoying extent, like I said. So this is something that we really need to learn about, and it, it actually applies not only in startups, but also in scale ups and even in, in internally within companies.

Yeah, within companies. Um, it's okay to, you need to have to embrace that culture that it's. Okay to try and, and that's the risk taking part. It's okay to fail and actually use that failure and post it and shout out about it and have others learn from it. Make sure that you learn from it. But, uh, uh, that definitely is something that I do not see a lot of, uh, uh, [00:43:00] to the, and, and it really is a cultural thing to start with, but also it, it does have some leadership aspect.

Whether within a company or again, whether, uh, from, from the wider, uh, culture, um, or the wider ecosystem, sorry, uh, where you really need to be more accepting of, again, failures, mistakes, um, celebrate them even to an extent, uh, at least in the beginning. And, and that will create, you know, you know, it's fine.

Let me try and let me. Fail and, and try again and boast about it and talk about it and, uh, and have others learn from it and, and so on. So it's, uh, that's, that's the, that's one of the main things that I loved over there and I'd love to see much more in the region about, we are definitely celebrating the successes, uh, but we need to celebrate the failures as well.

Mehmet: Right. Uh, just, you [00:44:00] know. You know, I was telling you Bibi at the beginning, like I, I was like passionate about startups, you know, like, and you know, I, I like startups, right? So, uh, following the stories, and I barely remember, you know, when I was mentioning the word even startup, right? Just the word startup.

In this part of the world. I'm talking like 2003, 2004, even before I came to the UE and people were laughing at me. What? Saying like, you know? Yeah. And then, you know, I came to the UA 2005 and you know, by that year I remember, you know, souk.com was one of the, you know, newcomers. And then, you know, actually there was before in Jordan Tu.

Yeah. And then people, they start to hear, oh, like, you know, Yahoo acquired tu and then like, of course, later on, Amazon acquired soup.com. And then people, they start, oh, like we remember you, like you mentioned like. 10 years ago, like about the startup thing, it looks good. I said, yeah, but because, you know, like these guys I'm sure, like they, they failed a lot.

And I, you know, I, I say all the time, you know, the early [00:45:00] people here in the region who did this, you know, they, they, they, I, I, you know, of course I don't know them personally, but, uh, I think in, in, in my point of view, they are heroes because, you know, they actually, they are the real risk takers at that time.

They are the pioneers who started this. And I remember, you know, when I was trying to find. Believe it or not, like I, I knew about like, uh, the accelerators in the US and so on, and I was telling people he, hey, like, do we have anything like this here? And they were, you know, forget about vc. Like we, people didn't know what an accelerator is, like incubator and all these things.

And then I said, Hmm, okay, we don't have that. And then, you know, all of a sudden, and I think this, you know, good things happened when, you know, first, I think it was soup.com, the big one, you know, acquired by Amazon. So it opened the eyes of the people. They, oh, startups can have good exits and then Kareem with Uber and then, you know, like everything happened.

And I think Egypt is one of the countries, if I'm not mistaken, like from ecosystem perspective, it's one of the [00:46:00] most mature ones. Uh, in terms of, you know, and I speak with a lot of founders, by the way, from Egypt, and I see the maturity of the founders there. Because in my opinion, correct me, and here I'm taking European credit because what I've seen in the, in the Egyptian, uh, entrepreneur, something which is good, which I, I hope like others will do it, they think globally from day one.

Yep. Means they think, okay, how can I take this product and I don't want only to sell it in Egypt or Saudi or UAEI want to take this globally. Um, is this a mindset in your opinion, that Egyptian entrepreneurs, usually they have. 

Khaled: Yes, a hundred percent. I think, uh, it's no longer by choice, to be honest. Uh, the, uh, the market in Egypt, while it is a, a huge one, uh mm-hmm.

It's, it's not sustaining enough unless it's, uh, pure, you know, consumer play, right? Uh, uh, uh, like all the fintechs that are coming up. Uh, but [00:47:00] even there, there, you know, if you're doing anything that has to do with infrastructure software. Um, even, uh, consumer, but, uh, but uh, but sort of, you know, consumer apps and so on that, uh, that the business case, the whole business case is built on the fact that you need to kind of export this product, uh, position it on a global scale.

You want to, uh, you know, have that global exit, uh, and as well as make, and, and on the plus side, you're making use of the local talent. The, uh, exactly cost effect, effectiveness of it. So it's creating a very good story, um, uh, one that, you know, many other countries have have succeeded with, like India, um, uh, and, and others.

And so Egyptians are, you know, putting that as a target. You know, we can be the, the next, uh, you know, uh, wouldn't call it outsourcer, but exporter of, uh, [00:48:00] products. Global, global, uh, on a global scale. So, uh, right. Uh, the other thing that I like, uh, uh, that I see, and it's, it is typical of an emerging economy, again, is, you know, the Egyptian entrepreneurs are hustlers by nature.

You need to hustle for your day to day, just to get around and, and, you know, get your way around things. Uh, and so that gives you a lot of grit and helps you. You know, um, with your own startup, um, you know, the term hustle is always used in Silicon Valley, but you don't find a lot of it there, uh, except with, again, successful founders or, um, uh, um, or entrepreneurs.

And, uh, in Egypt it's just inherent by nature. Again, it's, uh, you find a lot of hustlers. Uh, they're just waiting for, for the right opportunity. So. It's, uh, it's another skill that that has developed by nature and, and might create, uh, a good differentiator there. 

Mehmet: Absolutely. [00:49:00] Yeah. And I can, you know, again, if I want to name, I would not end this episode, but I've, I've met a lot of, uh, you know, real hustlers to your point, that even they go, you know, as founders, although like, you know, like they, if you think about it, you know, the positions they came from, they didn't have even to do it.

But, you know, because they have the passion and which we talked about, and, you know, they go out by themselves. They go to the streets, they, they talk to customers. I, I, I, I've seen it like. You know, in front of my eyes, like no one told me about it, which is, and the talent there is, you know, it's very decent.

Uh, I would say, I, I, I'm, I always call Egypt as the, you know, it's that basket of talents that feeds all, uh, the, maybe the meaner region when it comes, especially to software development, uh, design. Like even, you know, recently I start to see, uh, in creativity also as well, which is really good. Now just. It's one point I want again, because you've been in the [00:50:00] valley yourself hall about accelerators and incubators.

What do you think we need more here in the region? Do do we have, because you know to give, so first maybe as people who would run the incubators or accelerators, do you think first. We need people to encourage this culture of, you know, taking risks and failing and actually celebrating that, of course, within the limits.

Uh, and at the same time giving the know-hows, because I'm seeing people who are trying to do something, but unfortunately the way. It's, uh, positioned or the way they marketed, quote on code. Yeah, it's, it's, it's letting the founder saying, Hey, this is this, this is not an incubator. This is not an accelerator.

This is just a course and no, sorry, I'm not paying you money to. To, to try something I can go and try with my own money. What's your point on this? And because you've been in, in accelerators in the US also. Yes, and I've [00:51:00] been, I've 

Khaled: been involved heavily with, uh, Alchemist Accelerator, which was, uh, which is one of the, um, top enterprise focused, uh, enterprise only focused accelerators in, uh, San Francisco.

Um, and I've, I've, I've been there as a, as a founder and, and I also joined in as a volunteer at, at some point. Um, uh, and in, in, I got to learn a lot, uh, as a founder, um, because of the, even though I was a Stanford grad and I did my MBA, but still the accelerator gave me a lot of sort of practical, um, mentorship and kind of a, a guide.

Uh, that takes you through the diff that lives with you through the startup journey. It's not a course. As you mentioned, the, the, the thing I love the most and I urge other accelerators to do, is that they really prolonged the cycle. So with Alchemist, I think they stayed nine months. And so it's, uh, doesn't necessarily have [00:52:00] necessarily have to be a daily thing, like a coursework of sort, but it's something that continues with you.

And you go in and you try your MVP and you come back and you do your customer interviews and you come back, um, and you're seeing these challenges with, uh, recruiting and building your sales channel and, uh, and, and, uh, product design and so on. And they're, they're always there with you every step of the way.

And so they're kind of living the experience with you, and you're always finding mentors in that sense. The other thing that they're doing, um, as you, you've hit the, you've hit it right on the nail, is, is that they're spreading awareness, um, of that failure, acceptance, the risk taken that I've mentioned earlier, that we need more of.

This is the only way to encourage it, you know? Um, and so, so having more of these, uh, in the region is definitely, um, uh, there's a big need for it. Um, the only thing is that you need to continue the value chain as well. So as you, we spread the sort of the, [00:53:00] the, the long tail with, uh, or the bottom of the pyramid, sorry, with the, uh, accelerators you need to provide as well, more VCs.

And I mentioned, as I mentioned, there is an increasing number, but we need, we need more because as you come out of accelerators, you're going to need funding and, and, and further. Uh, sort of risk taking, encouragement. Let's what put it that way. And then obviously you need more exits. Uh, you did mention, obviously Sue and Kareem.

These are the two that we always use and we always mention we need more. Uh, uh, we, uh, right. And, uh, that's, that's definitely, uh, that, and one will push the other and will push, it's a pyramid, right? Let's lay the foundation and, and, uh, and, and see where that takes us for sure. 

Mehmet: Yeah, of course. You know, and I, of course, I, I don't claim to be expert in, in this domain.

I, I, I have an operator background, but you know, as I said, like I have the passion. So there are like pillars. I think we have [00:54:00] some of them now. So we have talents, at least we have some VCs with the, as you said, we need more, but we need more. Um, it's not like to just copy paste, but again, like it's a proven model.

We need. I would say number one, more early adopters, right? Yeah. 'cause at the end of the day, these guys, they're gonna go and sell to someone, right? Like they're not just building for the sake of building. And I think, you know, the early adopter mentality that, okay, I can buy a product, which is, I'm not saying it's, it doesn't work, but.

You know, accepting that version one mean, what's meaning of version one. And here in the region, you know, especially in the B2B, I know like rarely we see people who endorse, like helping founders, you know, in their validation, uh, thinking like as a design partner rather than just a client, uh, you know, uh, company relationship.

So we need more of this. And the other thing also. Which, uh, you know, more collaboration with, um, research [00:55:00] centers. Uh, of course we have, well, don't, don't get me wrong, we have plenty of good universities in the region, but you know, we need to see like real, uh, real, real, uh, use cases coming from academia.

Going to see their ways to, to the. Uh, to the market. So this is just my own, uh, you know, 2 cents on this matter on the VCs. And I would say always, I, I mentioned we need real VCs because, you know, uh, it's not like anyone can call themselves a vc, don't get me wrong. Yeah. Um, but, but you know, VC who thinks in the same way that the Silicon Valley VCs, they think, um, you know about, you know.

Placing, you know, multiple bets, you know, accepting that, you know, uh, things might fail also as well. Um, not someone who's just want the guaranteed returns because there's not such thing. But anyway, um, I think this discussion can go, uh, more and more Khaled, um, as we are close to, to an end. Any final thoughts and where [00:56:00] people can get in touch?

Khaled: Um, obviously I'm, I'm, I'm personally always available on, uh, I'm active on LinkedIn and, uh, I'd love to hear, um, I'd love to connect with others, uh, uh, in the region and back in Silicon Valley. And, um, so, um, I would love to hear, um, more from, from, from, from the audience and I'd love to hear, you know, I'm, I'm an avid follower of, uh, the CTO show, so, uh, uh, I'd like to thank you one more time.

We are talking about spreading awareness and this is the impact that you are bringing emit meme, um, uh, in sort of spreading that. Um, so, uh, I'd like just wanted to thank you one more time, uh, and appre really appreciate the opportunity. 

Mehmet: The pleasure is mine. Hared, of course, I gonna put, you know, your LinkedIn profile in the show notes, the com of course, these Quest for people who, you know, want to learn more also about the company.

So we can find that in the show notes. Uh, again, hared, I know as. [00:57:00] You know, chief operator, officer, how busy things can get. So your task of the day-to-day activities of the company. So you took one hour of your time to, to spend it with me and share your knowledge with your, with my audience. I appreciate that.

So this is how I end my episodes and to gonna end with what you said. So what I'm trying to do is, you know, on a small scale, very humble effort to give back. Bringing voices similar to Hale, to, to the podcast, just to spread awareness. Try to inspire someone to start something in you. Maybe you are stuck somewhere today and maybe you listen to Khaled and you know, you say, Hey, like, yeah, I learned something from Khaled.

Let me try and, and try to do something. Let me, let me, for example, the big take for me today from the episode Khaled is about, you know, accepting that, you know, risks exist and failure might happen. So let's embrace it and let's try to, to do it again. Don't be afraid of what people will think about me. In my opinion, this is the biggest thing and this is how I.

And all my episodes. This is for the audience. If [00:58:00] you are someone who just discovered the CTO show, thank you for passing by. I really appreciate that. I'm repeating myself with trying to spread awareness, so it really helps if you can subscribe, share, and tell people about the show, not because of me just to spread the knowledge and if you are one of the people who keeps coming again and again, thank you very much for doing so.

I appreciate your messages. I appreciate the feedback. I appreciate. You know, everything you do for the show, especially during 2025, as we are very close now to 2026, I'm happy to share that, you know, almost from Feb this year, you know, the podcast was always in one of the countries, uh, trending in the top 200 Apple Podcast shows.

Of course, it keep. Changing countries across, uh, but some countries they stayed longer. Some Egypt was one of them, by the way, Hal. Um, and I'm happy for that. Uh, but I'm still waiting for my friends in the us. I need a push from you because I think I'm not doing very well there. So I need maybe some help from my American friends.

Uh, we, we did it in Canada, we did it in the uk, we did [00:59:00] it in Spain, Australia, here in Saudi, UE, Egypt and a lot of African countries also as well. So I appreciate if you can do the small push and as I say, always. Tuned for a new episode very soon. Thank you. Bye-bye.