#550 From Zero to a Million-Dollar Month: How Colin McIntosh Built a Breakout Consumer Startup

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Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to a new opposite of the CTO Show with meme today. I'm very pleased joining me from the US Colin McIntosh. He's the founder of Sheets and Giggles. Uh, I would say Colin has a very rich journey [00:01:00] when it comes to starting businesses, finding first customers, fundraising, and a lot of, you know, interesting topics.

I would say that every founder probably think about it when, when they decide to start their companies. Uh, Colin, you the way I love to do, you know, when I do the introduction, I don't speak much about my guests, so I give it to them. Tell us more about, you know, you, your journey and what you're currently up to, and then probably we can take the conversation from there.

Colin: So, uh, I appreciate you having me on and, and talking to me. I am the founder, uh, best known, I think as the founder of a company called Sheets and Giggles. Um. Started that company eight years ago. Uh, we make sustainable eucalyptus bedsheets, mattresses, pillows. Um, and, uh, we've been doing that for, uh, the better part of a decade now.

Uh, we've been on Good Morning America and a bunch of other, uh, national TV programs and [00:02:00] shipped a few hundred thousand, uh, units to hundreds of thousands of people. Um, mostly in America. We're we're, funny thing about the betting industry is that every country has different size beds, so, um, yeah, it's hard to have like an international, um, bedding company.

Um, and, uh, my claim to fame with sheets and giggles, I think, is that we went from shipping our first box in October, 2018 to our first million dollar sales month in November, 2020. Um, so about two years, uh, which was crazy. And, um, there's a lot of yada, yada yada in there in terms of, you know, what, we did all the work, all the, you know, we raised some money, um, all these different pieces of it.

Um, also a pandemic, uh, in the middle of that timeframe. Um, really insane. And, uh, it's been a really interesting, uh, seven or eight years as a founder, um, to have started my company when I was a 27-year-old kid in 2017, which feels like. [00:03:00] The before time. Um, and then now with, you know, in the middle of building my company, my first business, COVID, um, I've had a cross country move with my wife.

I've started other projects. Um, and, uh, it's been really, really fascinating journey for me to like, kind of like zoom out and see from the outside. 

Mehmet: Right. It is a fascinating journey. So when you started it, Colin, um, you raised an Indiegogo campaign, right? And before even you had the product, like what are like some of the key lessons maybe you can share with, you know, probably entrepreneurs, founders who, who like usually follow this path.

Anything, you know, maybe you, you warn them I about, uh, or maybe think that they should know before going on such journey because, you know, it's, sometimes it's not always easy to build something and then fundraise to it. So sometime you need to do the opposite. So what you can tell us about this, 

Colin: I actually think it's a lot [00:04:00] easier to sell something and then build it.

Because if you, if you sell something, then you be before you, like selling something costs very little money. Like yes, there's some advertising costs and videography and photography and there's, you know, probably thousands of dollars of, of costs. But building something is. Hundreds of thousands of dollars to, to do that.

And so I actually think that it's a lot easier, safer, smarter, um, and a better path to success. If you go out and, you know, you can write the copy, do the photography, make a video, promise people how amazing it is, do a demo, show them the product, um, before manufacturing 10,000 units, right? Um, and then if people, that page will be the same, whether or not you have inventory, that website will be the same.

And the value propositions and the pricing and the conversion, that'll all be the same. And maybe it'll be a little lower because people have to wait in order to get the product. So there will be like an artificial cap on conversion. [00:05:00] But really you're telling yourself whether or not the market supports your idea and thinks it's interesting and wants to back it.

Um, so it's a really good stress test to decide whether or not you should even move forward with a product idea. Um, and so I recommend that every entrepreneur, every founder starts by selling and then goes into producing. Um, that's kind of the, the method that I like. And so, uh, yeah, we raised $284,000 on an Indiegogo pre-order campaign.

I think that was like 2000 pre-orders. Um, and, uh, we did that, that was actually the largest Indiegogo campaign ever for our category, um, at the time in 2018. Um, and we shipped our first box six months after that. Um, and, uh, you know, that gave me the seed funding to start the company. And then, um. Know, I'm happy to get into the tactics of like how you actually do a successful crowdfunding campaign.

'cause I think is more interesting to people than just like [00:06:00] the philosophy around it. So, I mean, if you wanna get into that, I'm happy to. 

Mehmet: Yeah, I will come to the fundraising, uh, later, Colin. Now also, uh, you know, when I was preparing, um, is, you know, it looks to me that there was an inflection point that unlocked scale for you.

Like, you know, taking the business from, you know, certain revenue. And of course I'm sure like it took, you know, a lot of effort, uh, blood, sweat, and, uh, tears until it reached there. But every business has what, you know, we call it the inflection point, like maybe a pivotal, uh, point where things started to change.

Anything you can share about that? Like what went well when you were scaling the business? I would say, 

Colin: um, it's really hard to identify like one. Inflection point. Um, our first three Q ones like, so 20, 19, 20, 20, 20, 21 [00:07:00] I think went like 200,000, 700,000 and then like 2.2 million. So like, that was, I think, I think obviously like, like 2020 was the year that we really started to unlock growth.

Um, but everyone always asks me if it was because of the pandemic. And I'm like, not, not really. 'cause we had incredible supply chain problems where like we couldn't get inventory, we lost out on a lot of sales, so we really couldn't capitalize on some of the pent up demand for COVID. It was more of that like natural growth rate.

We were, you know, two to four xing year over year at that point. I think that we, um, after like three years in a row of like, you know, four x growth, we, we hit the, in 5,000, I think we were number 3 0 9 on the Inc. 5,000 in 2022. Um, so those, those years were, I think there was really no single point that stands out in my mind.

The one that maybe I could, if I [00:08:00] had to pick like an inflection point, it was kind of because of COVID. We, so all my friends in 2020 were doing all these really cool things to help Colorado with COVID. They were doing like tracking, artificial intelligence, tracking of like the disease. They were, you know, trying to help the governor like do different things with different, um, you know, communications with citizens.

And, and you know, here I am just selling bedsheets, you know, and I'm in the startup community, but I don't really have like a, a technology or something. But the one thing that we did that none of my friends did with their startups is we made money. And so, and so I said, I said, well, let's just donate 20% of our revenue for 30 days.

I, I hate all the celebrities who are. We are donating 1% of our profits for 20 days to COVID. Really, it's like all that profit's gonna get zeroed out and 1% of profit is embarrassing. Um, and so yeah, so we donated 20% [00:09:00] of revenue for 30 days. Uh, ended up being at that point, uh, about $40,000 that we donated.

Um, and we donated that to Colorado's emergency COVID relief in I think April, 2020. Um, and I remember I got a phone call from the governor's office and they were like, Hey, did you make a typo? Because, uh, they were like, we got $50,000 from the football team. We got, you know, 50 grand from the largest telecommunications provider in the state, and we got $40,000 from sheets and giggles, like, is that, and it was so funny the way they, they called and asked about it and I was like, yeah, you know, we, we made a pledge and I, I followed through on the, on the pledge.

And that ended up, uh, through the PR channels of like the governor's office and stuff making its way to Amazon. Mm. Amazon as my, one of my partners in the business obviously we're a small business seller on Amazon. They reached out and they said, Hey, [00:10:00] can we, um, you know, actually write a story about this and talk about this?

So they named us as one of six businesses helping during the pandemic. I think that was like June, 2020 and then yada, yada yada. In October, I got a phone call from Good Morning America and they were like, we'd love to interview you as our small business spotlight, um, for Black Friday 2020. And that was all because of the donations that we made.

And that earned media on Good Morning America, I think was like, I think worth like six, $700,000 and, and media estimates when I looked it up. Um, and so that would be like, to me is like the big inflection point for the company of like. Getting the brand out there. And then in 2021, I, I began sponsoring a podcast that I've been listening to for 20 years.

Um, and that was really fun because I know the audience so well and it's a big audience, like millions of listeners. And so I, that was another major inflection point in 2021, [00:11:00] where I was able to write advertisements for a, uh, a show that I knew like the back of my hand. And those ads performed so well.

There were days on the show, there was one day on the show where I know we did over a hundred thousand dollars in sales just from the show's audience. Um, and so those were, those were really the, the big, the big two things that stand out to me when I think back. 

Mehmet: Great. And you know, I'm happy you mentioned this, Colin, because, you know, I wanted to ask you, actually, my next question was around, you know, building the brand and, you know, doing my little search, I've seen like, you know, uh, you, you, you build, you know, a uh, kind of cult following through humor, authenticity, right?

So I don't like to, you know, mention frameworks or playbooks, but I mean, what worked well for you in addition to what you mentioned as, you know, building a [00:12:00] brand voice and, you know, having, establishing the audience connection. And I think this, you know, probably would work with, you know, majority of, of the entrepreneurs, I would say.

Colin: Well, humor is really hard and, um, 'cause humor is writing and writing is really hard. Um, I find it funny that human beings invented an AI to write for them because writing is so damn hard. Um, but, but, um, you know, the, I think that the, the lesson is the, a brand needs to be true to its founder's personality because the founder is going to be driving most of the brand voice content copy, especially in the early days.

And so there are 12 brand archetypes, right? There's sage, there's the every man, there's the inventor, the magician, the hero, the caregiver, the romantic, the explorer. I can name all. And we are a adjuster. Um, and we're our kind of, our secondary brand archetype is like kind [00:13:00] of an outlaw or a rebel. Um, and then we're also a bit of a hero.

Um, but I know that we're a jester and that's because I know who I am and that's just the way that I go about life. I joke about most things. I don't take it too seriously. I really try to look on the bright side. Um, and so. You know, I knew that that was gonna have to be the brand that I built is, it was gonna have to be comedy.

Um, because if it was anything else, if I tried to be serious, you know, about like, these are the best bedsheets you'll ever try and here's why. 12 reasons why you'll, like, I, you know, I would, I couldn't do it. Like it would be so boring to me. And I specifically picked a category in bedding, um, and sleep that I found to be like, kind of a blank canvas for doing something funny and different because who's funny in, in the bedding category, like maybe purple, right?

Like purple was, they had some good ads. Um, but like other than that, like there was, it was [00:14:00] all like, oh, it's the finest Egyptian cotton you'll ever have. And I would go on the subway in New York and like Brooklyn and Boland branch and stuff would have these images of like women doing like acro yoga in bed with their boyfriends or like French press coffee, like.

On the edge of the bed, and I'd be like, nobody's, nobody lives like this. Nobody's bedroom looks like this. And so I wanted to do, you know, dogs in bed and wine in bed and pizza and movies and video games. I like, you know, somebody in a small apartment where their bed is their, their couch. Their workstation.

Mm-hmm. Like, you know, and, and so we, that was something that like we did day one where we really, we knew who we were speaking to. We knew the voice that we wanted to do. And I'd recommend to every founder to do, to do a brand identity map before you get started. And, and this is kind of a broader lesson, do all the things that don't cost any money.

So a business model, a financial model, a brand identity map, start a website and you can do all of [00:15:00] that for like 50 bucks. And that is going to kind of make your company feel more real and put guardrails around it and actually help you visualize like, okay, here's the financial model, here's the brand identity map, here's the business model, and now I have a real website.

And then, and then you can go in from there. But the brand identity map, there's a great one. If you Google, um, brand identity map Techstars, there's a really, really good one that's, uh, available for free on their website. It's one page. Don't, don't pay an agency to do a 20 deck brand identity map for you.

It's a nightmare. 

Mehmet: Keep it simple. Exactly. Super simple. 

Colin: I, I remember, sorry. Quick aside. Yeah, please. I remember one time I worked with this agency at my old company who, uh, they did a brand identity map for the company. And I'll never forget, they were like, your ideal customer is Sarah. She's 24 years old.

She lives in New York. She still drinks caper from her semester abroad in [00:16:00] Brazil. She has a boyfriend, but it's not that serious. And I was, and I was like, I was like, I'm sorry. Is this is helpful for anyone here? Like in, like in, and I was like, not the founder of the, I was just like a 25-year-old brash idiot.

And I was just like, this is insane. I'm like, we're paying these people to do, to like write a fiction, like a novel for us. Like no tell, so like for me, brand identity maps need to be like very actionable. Like you need to have like your, your core features, your core benefits, like your limbic hot buttons, your logical arguments, your emotional reasoning, like your, your demographics that you're going after, your brand archetypes.

That so many companies will do this, like persona. Nonsense and like that. And then eventually, like two, three years later, they're like, our persona has, has evolved, has, has changed, has, I'm like, oh my God. Just have a brand identity and like, and have, stick to it. You know, like, and, and those guardrails will be really helpful for your team because I could [00:17:00] tell my customer care team, I could tell my marketing team, I could tell my product team, Hey, look, we're, we're sweet, but we're never saccharine, we're funny.

Um, but we're never corny. We're, uh, sarcastic, but we're never caustic. Uh, you know, we're smart, but we're never try hard. And like that is kind of the, the, um, way that you can shape a brand. 

Mehmet: Talking about financials, like what kind of lessons also maybe, or things in your opinion, maybe other founders they miss when it comes to pricing psychology because, you know, I hear it a lot and whether in tech or outside of the tech industry where.

They have this doubt how much we should charge for this. And, you know, they have this fear, like, is it like overpriced underpriced? You know? What do you think usually founders miss when, when they decide on their pricing, um, strategy? 

Colin: So when I started the [00:18:00] company, I had to do the old pricing strategy, which is, you know, you look at the, the cost that makes you to produce something.

You look at your competitors' cost and you kind of, you do this and then you plug something into your financial model and you see if it works. And then you try to charge people it. And if they say yes, then great. And if not, you try to lower your price to see what conversion does and you know, that sort of thing.

Um, now founders can use a tool that I really recommend. Um, I love a company called inte, so like intelligence, but GE, EMS at the end, inte. And they are, um, the most robust price testing software. Uh, not to turn this into an ad for them, but like, you know, you can do A-D-C-D-E price testing. You never show the same different price of the same person.

You can do mobile versus desktop, crossouts versus codes, uh, free shipping testing. Uh, you can test by skew by color. So now there are [00:19:00] tools that are like, make this so much easier to like, really dial in what your maximum price can be, and like find out your true price elasticity and where you sit on that curve.

Um, but like, there's a, there's another lesson here, which is like. Most founders will underprice their product because they're too close to it. They see how it's made, um, and they understand all the warts and all the, the really, uh, the defects and the problems and like the, all the different things that went into it.

Um, and so I always recommend starting high and then moving lower if you have to over time. Um, there's nothing wrong with going higher over time. A lot of people are skittish about that. They're like, oh, like, you know, and the founders need to realize that 90% of the people who ever will come to their website over the course of time will probably be new, new eyeballs.

And so changing your pricing is not, you know, really that impactful to your existing customer. [00:20:00] And if anyone brings it up, Hey, you lowered your price. I paid a higher price. Just have a customer care response ready to go. That says you're absolutely right. Like, thanks for notifying us. Here's a $10 gift card to Amazon.

As a, as an apology for, you know, uh, changing our prices or whatever. And so something really simple like that goes a long way. But, um, there is, there's a bunch of ways to do pricing theory. I really, there's obviously the cogs like I mentioned earlier. There's like more of the finger to the wind. There's the robust price testing, um, the competitor analysis.

Um, but really whatever people are willing to pay for something, that's the price. And so I recommend people continue to raise their price until conversion falls off a cliff, because that extra margin will be very helpful as you build your company. 

Mehmet: Right. Now, let's go back to fundraising and crowdfunding.

Um, so in addition to the campaign, you've raised 5 million in, in, um, in vc, um, money, [00:21:00] uh, you know, starting with the crowdfunding, of course, like how did you manage Colin, uh, investor expectations? And this is something also I think some founders, especially first time founders, might not have the experience.

Um, they don't, they don't know like what are the things they should do while doing the fundraising, but for you also, you need to keep, you know, your community engaged as well. So you had the, the, the, the VCs plus the community, which you fundraise from. So tell us about this balance and, you know. For first time founders, you know, setting up the expectations with investors, 

Colin: it's really, it's really hard.

Um, you have to understand what drives investors. So if you are, if you're going to speak to a, a venture capitalist versus an angel investor, there's a very different people, right? A venture capitalist has a fund of money that they're trying to give a return [00:22:00] on. They've raised money from other people.

They have a fiduciary responsibility to their GPS and their LPs who have put money into the fund. And so you really need to understand like, hey, like what's your role? Like, what are you guys trying to do with the fund? Like, are you close to the end of the fund? Are you at the beginning of deploying capital?

Like, what's your time horizon for a return on investment here? Is it three years? Is it seven years? Is it one year? And so you really need to like understand what drives the people that you're talking to, whereas an angel investor. Um, might say that, you know, Hey, I'm just happy to support cool companies and like, I don't, I, I just want to help out the local community and if I get a, a 20% return, that's great.

You know, like, and they're, and they're happy, or if I get my money back or whatever. So there's a lot of difference between investors and what they're looking for and how you can speak to them. So that's kind of step number one. You can usually do that research ahead of time so that way you're walking into the meeting and you're speaking [00:23:00] their language without having to necessarily ask 'em.

But it's always okay to ask them if you don't know. Um, and then I would say the number one reason why people invest is how, how can I put this without sounding like an asshole? Um, people don't necessarily invest because they think it will be a great return. And I've noticed this. I've invested in companies as an angel investor.

Um. People invest in companies when they fear that they're going to miss out on a deal. Hmm. And you, human beings are, and then, and look, disciplined investors won't do that. Disciplined investors have, like their, their core metrics and things they look for, they have a thesis of course, and the whole nine, right?

And, and so I'm talking about like maybe like 80% of invest, like the broad pool of people, just human beings and how they act. Um, and there are always people who are, you know, looking for more of like the [00:24:00] metrics and the numbers. So I always tell founders like, have your traction, like buttoned up and ready to go.

Your sales numbers, your revenue, your pre-order list, your people on the wait list, your alpha users, your NPS score, your retention rate, your lifetime value. You need to know these numbers front and back. And if any investor asks you in a meeting, Hey, what's your average, your average lifetime value? You're not able, as the founders to like rattle that off like immediately.

Like every, what's your cost of acquisition? You, you need to tell them down to the penny what your CAC is, right? And if, and if you can't come up with these numbers, you need to know your revenue per month, your quarters, da, da, da. They won't invest in you if you say, oh, one second, let me look that up. As the founder, you need to like live and breathe these numbers.

So what I did is every day I would, it's actually really crazy. Before I had A-C-F-O-I had my own spreadsheets for like two years, and I would go into the spreadsheet and I would [00:25:00] update every single day. The amount of money we spent on marketing, the amount of new customers we got. You know, I, I build my own p and l really.

Um, and so every single day I was looking at the numbers and I knew front and back exactly what we were doing down to the penny. Um, and I could tell you the sales that we had on Wednesday last week, I could tell you the sales we had this month so far with all those different things, the growth rate, the percentage growth.

And so I think investors really liked me because I never hesitated for a second when answering a question. I always knew everyone, but really that fear of missing out that fomo, I think is like a lot of people, they invest in companies because they, they want to tell other people that they invested in that company.

Mm-hmm. Um, and that's kind of, it's pretty basic, but like, if you can lead and, and really what, what I'm talking about here is a central tenet to pitching an audience is, and I've won, I've won [00:26:00] pitch competitions, I've won done for startup week. I've, I've won a few different pitch competitions. I teach how to pitch, um, for startups and accelerators and universities.

Um, one of the core things is understand the feeling that you want to leave your audience with. And the feeling that I always wanted to leave people with is if I don't invest in this guy, I'm gonna feel really stupid in a few years. And, and that was like, I knew that that was kind of the, the thing I wanted to leave them with.

And also I, this guy's funny, like, that's also what I wanted 'em to leave. So I always made jokes, I always very light in the meeting, like, you know, that sort of thing. And yeah, I mean, if you leave a room, it's the George Costanza rule, right? If you're a Seinfeld fan, always leave them wanting more. And if you leave the room and they want more, like you're, you left in a good place, don't give them, don't give them everything.

Don't go on, you know, make sure that you have a hard stop. Stuff like that. 

Mehmet: You know, out of curiosity, Colin, like [00:27:00] how at that time, you know, was the reaction from the investors knowing that, you know, you, you crowdfunded, uh, before, like did they have like different, um, you know, term sheets? Was it like more about like, yeah, we know, like maybe you have done this with the community, but now you have to, to, to do like what we think is right?

No, so the, 

Colin: my, my crowdfunding was actually pre-orders, not equity. Okay. So I did not do crowdfunding. So I did pre-orders. I did like 2000 pre-orders. So, 

Mehmet: so this was your validation basically? 

Colin: That was my validation, exactly. So, so the only impact that had on fundraising was tremendously positive because I could tell the investors the story of, Hey, I, I put 10 grand into this thing and I, I spent three K on a video.

I spent a thousand getting the website set. And then I spent 5,000 on ads and we did our first, you know, a hundred [00:28:00] thousand dollars of sales in a week. And when you can, when you can tell somebody that you just did a hundred thousand dollars of sales in a week as a new, a new brand, like the, especially in the, in the late 2010s, like when D two C was like hot and everybody was looking for like the next big brand.

I mean, people, people really paid attention. Um, and so that was re that was the traction point. That was like the entry level point to the conversation, because who's gonna fund the company that's based off upon sheets and giggles, right? Like, who's gonna, who's gonna give me money for my weird bedsheets idea?

Like, nobody like that. Like it's a, it's a crazy, it's a crazy idea. But if I can go to them and I can say, Hey, I just launched on any Gogo yesterday and we did $45,000 on day one with no advertising. Just off of our email list. Um, I think that everyone kind of immediately, like, you don't have to understand [00:29:00] direct to consumer or marketing or branding.

The investors speak the language of money. And so no matter what your idea is, if you can tell 'em that it's making money, they will talk to you and listen to you. 

Mehmet: Yeah. I'm glad you you brought the discussion to, to this point. Uh, Colin, now a lot changed since, uh, pretty much maybe before COVID, you know, as you said, like, you know, it's like now we say pre COVID, post COVID, uh, trends changed.

As you said. DTC was hot. Now everyone talks about ai. Everyone is obsessed with data. Uh, if you, or maybe let's say we are, you and me are advising or like maybe mentoring a founder today to go and raise. His or her seed round, right? Uh, but they are into the consumer, you know, business. Maybe they are a green tech, uh, founders.[00:30:00] 

What do you think they should be doing today knowing the current, uh, needs from, from, you know, investors in the age of AI and data? 

Colin: It's a really hard question. Um, so investors keep moving the goalpost as fast as they can. Mostly, I think, because they want to make like pithy LinkedIn posts about how like a million dollar a RR isn't impressive anymore.

Like, you know, like everybody wants to be the, everybody wants to go viral. I don't know. Um, but I think that like the, the number one thing I would tell a founder, um. Is that it's still the same core driving factors. Like are you, are you getting traction? Do you have good user numbers? What are your user metrics?

Like, are people excited to use your product? Like, do you get good reviews and like, are you, are you growing, do you have good word of mouth? Like, investors want to see organic [00:31:00] user growth. They wanna see, you know, um, month over month growth in users. They wanna see, you know, great user metrics on the website.

Are people engaged? Are they staying engaged? Are they using the app? Is the, is the attention rate high, the engagement rate high? So like, I think that most of these metrics are still pretty similar. The main difference is like, you're not, I, I, when I pitched sheets and giggles, I remember I told people like, Hey, I don't think this is a home run.

I think this is like a double. And I would tell people like, I think this is like a good company that can make money, that is making money that, you know, can be a pretty big brand. I don't know if it's gonna be, you know, a billion dollar company or a brand or something like that. Um, and I was pretty honest with my investors and I think that that's one of the reasons why a lot of my investors invested in the business is because they felt like I was being, and I was being very like, genuine and open with them about what I thought the business could do.

A lot of founders go into the room and they're like, we're gonna do 3 million [00:32:00] year one, then we're gonna do 30 million year two, then we're gonna do a hundred million year three. And then, you know, we're, we're gonna take on the $15 billion market in year four. And that like, and they, and they keep having these like concentric circle rings of market that like, and it is just like, it just shows like an, an irrational exuberance and a lack of understanding of like what it actually takes to build a big business.

If you just kind of go in there and say that our we're just gonna j her hockey stick in two years. Um, and so I think that that's understanding that like investors are looking for higher returns. Um, because the, I mean, interest rate environment changed in 20 22, 20 23, so much that, you know, 15% IRR is not the norm anymore for what venture capitalists need.

They need like a 20, 25% IRR, um, in order to provide compelling returns to people who are putting money in the fund. And you know, if you are, if you are going in there [00:33:00] and you're saying like, Hey, like I have a, a $20 million idea or something like that, it's just not interesting to venture capitalists anymore.

Like it's so there, but you, you need to be both at once. This is, this is the balancing act. You need to be at once very rational about what your prospects are and what your growth rate will be, and be able to defend that financial model. And you need, if you're gonna raise money from venture right now, if you need a big idea and a big market that is going to.

Really like, not, not necessarily grow like rapidly, exponentially, but like has legitimate potential for nine figures of revenue or, or more like in, you know, a five, seven year period. Um, 'cause in investors are looking for much higher returns than they were a few years ago. I mean, when interest rates were near zero, you know, you could give people a 10 to 15% IRR and, and look pretty good, but, you know, now it's not the case anymore.

Mehmet: [00:34:00] Right. And you know, like, um, I give hint to some founders sometimes where I tell them back maybe to the pricing, um, you know, discussion that we had. So just, let's say you gotta sell something, whether it's software, physical product, doesn't matter, right? So just put a number and like, just calculate how much you can grow really, you can scale it right?

And think from an investor perspective, like put that yourself in their shoes for a moment and see like how. Like how much you can double that, triple that, like 10 XA hundred x Right. 

Colin: People, people always ask me, they're like, can, can you do 10 x this? And I'm like, I gotta build a product. So it's a little, you know, like I'm already, I'm already growing four XA year over year.

Can I grow 40 XA year over year? Like, probably not. You know, like, but um, I, I always refuse to like lie to investors. That's, that's an interesting thing is like a lot of founders, they feel like they should just say whatever the [00:35:00] investor wants to hear. And I've had investors tell, I've had investors tell me in the room, Hey, we want to invest, just tell us how this is going to go to a hundred million dollars within, you know, five years or something like that.

And I would sit there and I'd be like, I'm not gonna do that. Like, I don't, I don't think that there's a viable. Path for me to, to do that with the fact that I'm doing this product and this specific brand and mix, I think I can do, you know, 20 to $50 million in, in that period of time, you know, like in revenue.

And I think that that's great. Um, but if you don't think that, that's interesting, then I, you know, I'm not gonna lie to you and I, but I, it's really weird. Like, it's almost like they want to be, um, they want, they want to hear a story, you know what I mean? Like, they want to hear like a, but at the same time, like if you, if you spin a yarn, then they're gonna, you know, roll their eyes and they won't meet with you again.

So it [00:36:00] is, it is a balancing act. Like founders really do have to understand, like, you know, and I, I've always erred on the side of like being extremely honest and like, you know Yeah, 

Mehmet: a hundred percent. Just telling 

Colin: people like, Hey, here's what it is, here's what it looks like. Um, and I think the people really respect that.

I wouldn't want to go off into the other direction of more of like a fantastical over exuberant founder. Um, but it is a balancing act of like, you need to excite them, but make sure that it's rational and defensible and, and makes sense. 

Mehmet: Yeah. And the reason I mentioned this exercise, Colin, it's not like to, to do any deception for the investors.

Yeah, yeah. As, as you know, like me as a founder, do I believe I have big market and a potential because, you know, um. I, I'm not here to defend or like offend anyone here, but I've seen on both sides people asking wrong questions, answering as you mentioned in a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like we, we, we gonna like grow this business a hundred x thousand [00:37:00] x, which is, we, we, we know, uh, I say like everything has kind of quote unquote low physics, right?

So you can't break the limits sometimes. So if, if you are, you know, how much market share you can take, it depends on which, of course, like geography you're operating as well. You want to say something? I, I 

Colin: also think that this is a good moment for people to build, uh, bootstrap companies like I really do.

I don't, I think that this is the, a good moment in time to be more disciplined about, you know, revenue, profit, growing slow. I think that this era, the last two or three years, and then probably looking into the future a few years. I think it's gonna create a lot of really good businesses because like when, when money is tight, when times are tough, when the economy is bad, um, there is a lot more founders that are forced to grow organically, slowly, methodically, ruthlessly.

Um, and then that, you know, in five or [00:38:00] seven or 10 years when the money's flowing again and when times are good again, um, they'll, you know, they'll be like MailChimp or, you know, like some, you know, and people who raise tons of money or sell for huge numbers because they've never taken a single dime of equity financing.

Um, and I think that that's a really, a really cool place for us to like be in. Although it is really hard, um, for founders that, you know, raising money is a bit of an easy button to go out and, and start getting some scale. Um, but I think that it, it will build better businesses and I think that people, um, should be very like aware and cognizant of like, should I raise money?

Is this a venture capital backed idea? Is this a scalable idea? Um, and I think that goes back to the goal of why you're starting a company, right? Like, are you starting a company to make billions of dollars? Are you starting a company because you wanna work for yourself? Yeah. Um, or are you starting a company?

'cause you wanna help [00:39:00] people. And those are not necessarily mutually exclusive goals. Um, but they are different. And so, you know, you can help people without making money. You can make money without working for yourself and you can work for yourself, um, without helping anyone. And so like that, like, but I try to do my, my, those are my three goals.

Like, and they kind of have like a Venn diagram of them. Mm-hmm. Um, but like, uh, I think the founders need to be honest with themselves about like, what would make me happy? And, and that's f Sorry, that's a deeper question. Like. Pro tip to any founder out there, nothing will make you happy. The only thing that will make you happy is right here.

And it comes from right here. And you have to wake up every day and choose to be happy. Um, there is no like external force that will switch on happiness for you. There's no number, there's no crowd, there's no accolade. Um, there's no, I love you, dad. Like, nothing will make you like happy, um, until [00:40:00] you just decide one day to wake up.

And if you think that your brain can be capable of it in the future, your brain is capable of it right now and you don't have to wait for it. Um, and so that's, that's like a side note, um, of like, you know, your business is not gonna make you happy, so like, don't do it because you're seeking happiness. Um, I always think the best businesses are the ones that are in service of others and, um mm-hmm.

You know, I think that's why we're put on, we're put on Earth is for the service of others. Um, and so you can do that without raising money. You can do that without growing a big business. And I know a lot of people with lifestyle businesses, you know, $10 million a year, $20 million a year, um, that are just the happiest, you know, most successful people I know.

And that's, and, and I think that that's something that we undervalue because venture capital has really trained entrepreneurs to go raise money and then go brag about raising money, um, you know, on, on LinkedIn and TechCrunch and [00:41:00] stuff, 

Mehmet: right? Uh, so this is a question. Um, I'm involved in a, uh, in a, um, training program where it's not training, I would call it like, uh, apprenticeship program.

And, you know, I ask to be entrepreneurs like the same question you, you just asked, like, why are you doing this? Like, what's your purpose? And they ask me sometimes to your point, like, yeah, like, you know, I want to make money. And then, and you know, I'm looking for investors. And then I say, okay, fine. Like, why you need this money?

Are you going to, you know, do you want just to have a comfortable life? Probably. Maybe you have a number in your mind that, okay, if I have this income, I will be happy, you know, but I want to be working for myself. And they asked me, is that wrong? I said, no, it's not wrong. If this is your purpose in life, that's fine.

I can't force you to do something else. But when you know, if you. [00:42:00] I call it like a mission bigger than yourself, or a, or a vision bigger than yourself, then yeah, probably you would need some support down the road. And this is where you might, you know, but I'm with you, Colin. Like I push people to bootstrap at the beginning at least, you know, they, they start to have skin in the game.

They start to, to figure out few things by themselves because, you know, if you try to immediately go and fundraise, it's hard first. And we know maybe, you know, this also Colin, like, you know, investors would, would, would give you the, the, you know, the different, you know, kind of, uh, look, you know, like, right.

So you need to build some credibility. You, you 

Colin: can spend, you can spend a lot of time and a lot of energy trying to raise money and never get a single dime. And all that time, energy, it's not easy. Could be spent on building a business and building a book of clients and building customers. I, I think that, um, yeah, to go back to what you were just saying, like, there are so many founders.

My, I, I fell into this trap when I was, you know, 28, 29, 30. Um, who think that [00:43:00] if I can just get to X, like I will be happy. And it doesn't matter what X is. X for some people is $5 million. For some people it's $50 million. Some people it's a hundred million dollars. For some people, there's, there's never a number, right?

Um, and, but there's so many people out there that are like, if I can just get to here. But as soon as they get to there, they have a new goal. They've moved the goalpost, they've forgotten what their old goal was. They never stopped to smell the roses. Um, and they're never, they're never happy and they're never satisfied.

And so, you know, for me, I look for fulfillment, um, both within the business, but very much outside the business. So I try to have fulfillment with my wife, my family, uh, my community. You know, we do trash cleanups at the park every weekend, uh, here in Miami. Um, and, uh, we try to, you know, uh, be the change that we want to see in the world.

Um, and it's been a, it is, it's been a wonderful life. Like, I, you know, I do a lot of camping. [00:44:00] Um, I go out and I do a lot of like hiking and traveling. Um, and, uh, you know, there's a big part of me that wants to like go live abroad and do different things like that. But, um, I love my family. I got a little niece and nephew and, um, you know, it just, it all this stuff is important to remember.

Like, um, we're not put on earth to like, make money. Um, money doesn't exist. And like, um, it's interesting, you, you read about history and you realize like how much of history is driven by money and, um, it's really, uh, it's kind of sad, uh, but, you know, it is what it is. Um, and so I, I try to make sure that like, I'm, I'm not forgetting what it means to be a human and, and you know, why we're here.

Mehmet: Right. Uh, finally thing I want to ask you, Colin, is about your techstar, um, experience. So you went on Techstars Boulder in 2019, I think. Yeah. So how this shaped, you [00:45:00] know, uh, you know, your mindset and how, you know, it, it also affected your network and I can see also you became a mentor there. Uh, so tell us a more about this experience.

So, so when I was 

Colin: 25, I had been fired or, or let go from three different jobs. My first three, three of my four job, first jobs and, um, different reasons, uh, for sure. And, uh, you know, most founders are, are bad employees. Um, and, uh, and so my friend Jackie had started a company, um, that I had written the business plan for actually when I was 23.

Uh, at my kitchen table in Connecticut. Um, and she said that, Hey, we got into Techstars. She called me one day. I was living in Seattle and I, I knew what it was 'cause I had done tech recruiting. Uh, at one of my jobs, I was a recruiter and I was like, oh my gosh, my Techstars is amazing. And she was like, do you want to come be on our founding team?[00:46:00] 

And, uh, she said, I'll pay you $1,600 a month before tax. Um, and uh, you can come down and you have three months of job security. After that, I don't know if I could pay you anymore. And so I drove 20 hours down from Seattle to Denver. I slept on her couch, uh, you know, got paid minimum wage basically. Um, and I busted my ass so hard in summer 2015, and that was the year that really changed my life.

That, that like, you know, I learned so much about starting a company and building a brand like consumer marketing. Um, you know, I had mentors that were just at the best people that I could possibly have in business development and marketing and sales. Um, we ended up raising $3 million from wonderful people.

Uh, we hired like 20 people in downtown Denver. Um, had an office. I had moved to Denver full time in 2016. Um, and then unfortunately we all got laid off at [00:47:00] 1:00 PM on a, on a Monday in September, 2017. And that was, that was pretty emotional. That was really tough. 'cause I had poured, you know, my couple years, two or three years of my life into that company in my mid twenties.

Um, and uh, I remember telling my friends like, I'm gonna start a, start a bedsheet company. I, so I incorporated sheets and giggles three weeks after that. Um, and I ended up doing Techstars in 2019 and with Sheets and Giggles as a founder. And that was so special to like go through the program four years later, not as an employee or as a secondary team member, but actually as the founder and CEO, um, bring my own team into the program and, you know, do our own scrappy, bad Boulder apartments that the company was paying for.

And, um, in the middle of the winter, ice cold, uh, you know, brought my dog to the office every day and, um, slept at the office. Sometimes it, so for people that don't know, Techstars [00:48:00] is an accelerator. They give you a hundred thousand dollars, they put you in a room with 10 other companies, um, and they tell you to work your ass off for 13 weeks, about 90 days.

And then you get on stage at demo day and you pitch in front of a crowd. And the thing that always stands out for me is that in 2015, as a 25-year-old that had had no success so far in my career outside of recruiting, interestingly, um, I was so enamored with the, the pitches they showed, the demo day pitches they showed us.

I was like, like on day one they were like, this is what you guys are gonna do to the founders. You know, I wasn't gonna do it, but like in, but my friend Jackie was, and she killed it. Um, and I was watching the pitches for like SendGrid and other, other amazing companies and I was like, oh, how cool would it be to be like a founder whose pitch is shown to new Techstars classes as an example of how to pitch.

And then in 2019, I got to do my own pitch [00:49:00] and I brought the house down in the Boulder Theater in Colorado. I mean, I had them cracking up and, and falling over in their seats. And, um, you can look on text, uh, uh, YouTube if you search for sheets and giggles. Techstars, you can see my 2019 pitch. And then that pitch is now what Techstars shows to programs all over the world.

Um, now, six years later, uh, for the last five years, they've shown it to people. And I get Techstars founders all the time who reach out to me on LinkedIn and they're like, Hey, I just got into the program. I just watched your pitch. I'm in the, the Chicago program or the Atlanta program, or the Miami program.

Um, and starting in 2022, I actually began teaching the Boulder and the Miami program companies how to pitch. And so I do the, the first pitch practice and I do the last pitch practice. Um, before demo day. And so it's been really a gift, uh, to be able to, to give back and be a mentor to the program that changed my life.

And I wanna continue to give back to Techstars. [00:50:00] Um, they're a phenomenal program and, and I highly recommend them for any entrepreneur that wants support and mentorship. Um, but yeah, that, that to me is like a fun full circle thing. I actually met this guy down here in south Florida. My wife and I just moved to Miami this year to be closer to my family, um, after 10 wonderful years in Colorado.

Um, and I met this guy at this, uh, bar down here, and we're just talking and, uh, and we're talking about our startups and our companies, and he's like, yeah, you know, we're at like, you know, four or $500,000 revenue. Like, I'm, I'm considering raising. And I was like, oh, have you, have you thought about doing Techstars?

Like I, you know, I, I can introduce you to some people. And he goes, oh no, I did, I did Techstars in 2023. And I was like, oh, no way. And, and he goes, wait. Are you the sheets and giggles guy? And I was like, I was like, I was like, yeah. And he, and he's like, dude, they showed us your pitch, like in the class. He's like, I, I can't believe so, you know, fun stuff like that [00:51:00] is like, that's really fun for me to, to be a part of the community and, and that sort of thing.

So, um, yeah, that's, I would highly recommend it to any founder. I think it's life changing. 

Mehmet: Fantastic. By the way, Techstar, they exist in, you know, multiple places outside of the US also as well. Uh oh. So many 

Colin: countries. So many countries have a Techstars program. Yeah. So, so if you're 

Mehmet: listening or watching us from somewhere, go surf for your local, uh, Techstars.

So probably you'll find, by the way, I watched the. Uh, you know, this is why excited me to talk more to you, Colin, because I watched the, the video before a couple of weeks ago because we were supposed to record before. I'm transparent with my audience. Uh, so guys, like you need I gonna put the link in the, in the show notes You need, you, you No, no.

But, but seriously, like, uh, it's fun. It's a fun pitch. That was, that was my 

Colin: magnum opus of pitching. Yeah. That was the best. 

Mehmet: Yeah. But they will, they, I think they will learn a lot. Like, and it doesn't [00:52:00] matter. I mean, what's your startup is about? It's like, you know, there is a complete thing. We call it art of pitching.

And you need to, there's a rhythm. It's a, 

Colin: it's, it's rhythmic. Like there's, so I believe, and I, by the way, I appreciate that. I, I'm glad that you liked it. I, there's a rhythm to speaking, singing, dancing, comedy, cooking, I think is rhythmic. Um, storytelling, writing, like things that humans, things that humans have done.

For hundreds of thousands of years around a campfire are like now part of us evolutionarily. Like there's a rhythm. And I think that there is a rhythm to speaking, to being in front of a crowd, to being an orator. Um, and so you, not everybody can do it like naturally, like it's, it, some people are very uncomfortable being in front of a crowd, right?

They get really tensed up and stuff. But there are like a dozen or so rules to a good pitch. And what I'll tell people is a quick cheat sheet is you [00:53:00] gotta make them lean in within the first 10 to 20 seconds. And if you don't make them lean in and put their phones away, they are just not gonna listen to you.

And the best way to do that is not describing the problem, the story, the solution, the people, the, that is all nonsense. No one cares about your problem. No one knows about your problem. The number one way to make them lean in is to tell how much fucking money you're making. Within 10 to 20 seconds or tell them, uh, how many users you have or some eye popping number because they may not understand anything about your company.

But a big number is like, we're squirrels, so like big number, humans are like, whoa, big number. Like, and that's, and so do, do something like that, 

Mehmet: right? Finally, Colin, where people can get in touch. 

Colin: Um, I'm pretty private o overall, honestly. I'm not the but, but you can email me. Uh, you can find me on LinkedIn.

That's probably the [00:54:00] easiest. Yeah, just search. Yeah. Yeah. Colin McIntosh, sheet sheets and giggles. Um, I'm pretty easy to find. I just don't, I, I don't tweet. Um, I don't post on LinkedIn. I, I try to spend my life, I'm, I'm already on my phone way too much, so I try to be. A little bit private. 

Mehmet: No, that's completely understandable, Colin.

But yeah, just for people, if, if they want, maybe just have a look on, on your LinkedIn and profile LinkedIn 

Colin: easiest. Yeah, 

Mehmet: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so I gotta put the link in the profile. Colin. I really enjoyed the discussion. Um, it's, it's fun always for me to talk to, uh, not, not only founder, I would say, or entrepreneurs, but you, I would call it, you know, it's like not attitude.

It's like your character, your personality. You have like a, uh, very down to earth, you know, what you're doing. Um, you want to leave, uh, an impact, positive [00:55:00] impact, of course, uh, in the world and on people. And I, you know, get too much little bit, uh, you know, connected to, to, to people like yourself, Colin, who are, no, that's not I, 

Colin: that's so kind.

That's really kind of you. I, I. Man. I try to tell founders and other people and anyone who will listen that um, this, this is gonna get a little metaphysical at the end here. Like, our atoms come from rivers and oceans and clouds and sand and rocks and trees and animals. And they're in this combination for right.

80 years if we're lucky. Right. And, um, it's a hard existence to be a human. I mean, to be alive and to be conscious is, um, its own form of suffering. Um, and, but at the same time, it's such a fleeting like moment in time where you get to [00:56:00] be this combination of atoms that like. Why are you gonna spend this time doing anything other than like, you know, being maximum human and like having, having a great time and helping other people.

Right. And that's really the big insight that I've had is like, life is so hard and no one asked to be born, uh, and no one asked to be this combination of atoms. 

Mehmet: True. 

Colin: They just are. Um, you know, you're, when you're pregnant, you gather them from everywhere and then you put 'em together and you assemble and you know, here's the, here's the human.

Um, but like I have, I feel like my number one guiding thing is like, I want to be grateful for the help that I can give other people get through life. Um, and then after that we all go back to being rivers, rocks, trees, clouds, and like, it. I think that's gonna be a beautiful existence too. Like, I, I look forward to being.

A river again. I really, really do. I can't wait. 

Mehmet: So yeah, I, I, I love this, you know, [00:57:00] it, it's, uh, you know, being grounded, uh, and being, uh, grateful as you said, Colin, like, uh, you know, usually I don't like to talk much, you know, and take from my guests, but again, I like just add something about, you know, the purpose, about, you know, being grateful.

So people reach out to me, you know, and they see, hey, like, how much money are you making from the podcast? And I said, guys, you're not getting the point. 

Colin: Oh, 

Mehmet: it's, it's, it's not, it's not about, you know, the transaction. And I said like, it's been a while when I. Stop thinking transactional and I think purpose, like, maybe it's not the famous podcast in the world.

Maybe it's not, you know, I don't know what, but you know, two things. First, I tell people always, if I have one person in the whole world who by luck now let's say tune in. He listens to you, Colin. He get inspired or she get inspired. You know, this for me is like, I did [00:58:00] my mission. I feel like this. That's it.

You're done. Yeah. Yeah. 

Colin: I, that, that's what I, that's what I said when I started sheet. I said, if, if we. If we sell one unit, I'll be, I'll be happy. Like I did one thing. You know what I mean? Like, that's what I said, if we can make one person's life better. Yeah. 

Mehmet: So, so for me, it's the same exact thing. And the other thing I tell them, which is underrated in my opinion, I'm not sure, like I, I didn't speak to a lot of the, the, the, the hosts out there.

I beat guessing couple of podcasts. But the thing is, and this is underrated, which people they don't understand. Like every time I do a new episode, I meet a new person, I learn new things. And now after, you know, almost three years and close to, I would say 350, um, interviews or more, I think 400. Wow. Yeah.

So the amount of knowledge that I have, the amount of, you know, deep connection I establish with my guests. I tell pe I tell people, this is priceless. You can't put a price [00:59:00] tag next to such thing. Right. So it's, it's like a treasure. So, 

Colin: and man, now, now that I live in Miami, I, I, I love that, by the way. But now that I live in Miami, uh, I left, I grew up down here.

So I, I left when I was 18 and now I'm back at 35, which is an interesting experience. I have people who, when they find out that I am the founder of a company or, or whatever, um, they will immediately ask me, how much money do you make? And they will immediately tell me how much money they make. And then I've, I've had people show me their bank accounts at, at like, at like, get together.

Like, I'm like, dude. Like, go, go to therapy. Like, don't, like, don't show me, like, don't like, dude, you, I am not your, your validation or what, like go fucking, like work do, do some journaling. Like go get this outta your, so like, there's so many people like that down here. It's crazy. I'm like, and I, I mis call everywhere and the everywhere, everywhere, everywhere.

Yeah, for sure. [01:00:00] But, but, and you know, and it is, I will say, like, I think that, uh, I don't have to tell you this, but like, it is a privilege to be able to, um, you know, start a company and work on something you're passionate about. Um, you know, uh, winning the, the, everything from the geographic lottery to living in, you know, developed nations to, you know, having wonderful parents and good educations and like, and so that's another reason that drives me to like, make the world better is like, you know, I, I know not everybody has the same opportunity and the same ability.

And so I really want to help to create more equality of opportunity. Um, and, you know, and I really also, uh, I feel like I would be like wasting. Um, my life and my potential if I didn't, uh, if I didn't take advantage of everything that's been given to me. Um, and so that's another thing is like, if you've got the ability, you've got the time, you've got the risk, um, ability, like, you know, go do something fun.

Go do something different. Um, and worst case scenario, like, yeah, you can go get a job [01:01:00] somewhere. Like that's a really good worst case scenario to just like go work 

Mehmet: Absolutely. At a 

Colin: corporation somewhere. Like that's, that's a very lucky place to be. 

Mehmet: A hundred percent. Well, Colin, I can't thank you enough for your time Of course, and being on the show.

It's, it's an honor and, uh, you know, I really enjoyed the, the conversation with you today, and this is how I end my episode. This is for the audience. If you just discovered this podcast, as I was saying to Colin, like maybe someone by luck, maybe it's karma, I don't know what you call it. And you tuned in. I have a small favor from you.

It's just like. Subscribe and share it with as many people as you can. And if you are one of the people who keep coming back, listening, watching, if you're seeing this on YouTube and you write me your feedback, you reach out. Thank you very much for doing so, and thank you also for the support because, you know, the podcast in 2025 was always ranking, you know, in one of the countries in the top 200 Apple Podcast shows.

And this cannot happen by itself. I don't have bots that tune in. So it's [01:02:00] human beings, you know, listening, tuning in and, and you know, downloading the episodes again and again. So thank you very much for your trust, and as I say, always stay tuned for any episode very soon. Thank you. Bye-bye.