#545 Exploring the Real Frontier: Dr. Nico Augustin on Deep Ocean Discovery and Innovation

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Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to the CTO Show with permit today. I'm very pleased joining me, Dr. Nico Augustin. Uh, Dr. Nico, he is a researcher and expression director at Ocean Quest. We're gonna talk [00:01:00] a lot about things related to the sea and the deep. Um, but, you know, without, you know, wasting the time and taking from the spotlight of my guests, what I always like to do is I keep to my guests, so to do themselves.

Uh, so Dr. Niko, tell us more about you, your journey, what brought you to this, uh, you know, exciting domain, uh, about maritime, uh, geology and you know, the things that you are doing currently. And then we can start discussion from there. So the floor is you. 

Augustin: Yeah. Good morning, Mehmet. Uh, thanks for having me. Um, yeah, what to say?

I was born and dressed up in, uh, eastern Germany, uh, in the Star Wars here in 1977, and where I got my first inspiration to the, to the Deep Sea and, and, uh, so the contact to the Deep Sea by watching the old shows of, of Jacque Sau, uh, actually in the Western tv. Uh, because in eastern Germany it was not so easy and my grandparents had a hidden antenna, [00:02:00] uh, in the attic.

And, uh, yeah, we could watch the Jao store shows, which was very exciting to me. Uh, there was another movie actually, I was inspired by movies and pictures, uh, in from 1955, I guess. Uh, it was a chat movie and it was the journey to the beginning of time with. Dinosaurs and all this stuff. And yeah, that basically led me, I think in the end to, uh, study geology and paleontology.

Um, I tried to become a au hunter, uh, but life, uh, developed different and also the studies and I became a marine geochemist, uh, but did not really liked the, um, lab work too much and I transitioned into a marine mapper and uh, yeah, that was basically the continuous. Curiosity and, and, uh, desire to explore unknown, uh, landscapes deep in the sea.

And even though the path was not really, uh, linear during my career, um. I eventually, uh, led [00:03:00] large scale exploration projects, uh, at my former institute and the Geo Hamer Center for Ocean Research in kil in northern Germany. Uh, where I then spent, um, over 20 years actually, uh, as a. Later senior researcher and coordinated, uh, seagoing expeditions and, uh, had a focus on the Red Sea in the end for almost 15 years.

Um, so yeah, today I am the head of the research and Expeditions department here at Ocean Quest in Saudi Arabia and very young non-for-profit foundation that supports, uh, deep ocean discovery and, and, uh, innovation and, uh, capacity building as well. 

Mehmet: Great. And thank you again Dr. Nico for being here with me today.

I know like, uh, for someone like yourself, how much things can get busy. So giving me this time today to chat a little bit with you, this is something I really appreciate Now. You know, fun fact, you know, I watched the, you know, the documentary watch [00:04:00] when I was, when I was like younger. Uh, I remember, you know, waiting them from Sunday to Sunday.

'cause this is where the time they were giving it. And you know, when we talk about discoveries in general, and especially when, when, when you specialize in something, um, I figured out, you know, like. Many scientists and researchers, um, they would be going after some kind of, you know, proofs like and theories.

Um, and this is get built. So they start to build, you know, these ones based on the researchers they do. So for you, like, was there any one expedition or discovery maybe earlier in your career that cemented, you know, this belief in the importance of ocean exploration? Like from. You know, geological, biological, or even technological aspects.

Augustin: Um, there was maybe the one or the [00:05:00] other expedition that that really cemented, uh, the career. But surprisingly it was not, I think it was not the first. Or the second expedition that I had because I was as a student helper on my first expedition and also as a student helper on the second expedition, which was exciting and, and, and totally new.

Um, I went to the Veian Volcanoes underwater. I went to the North Pole actually in a very early career. Um, but it was the expeditions during my early PhD years actually that that. Uh, where truly the interdisciplinary expeditions. So before that, you are a helper. You don't identify too much. With the expedition itself or with the research behind it.

It's exciting. It's great, of course, but, but you are not too deep in, and during the PhD, um, the PhD studies, it was, I, I was really part of the expedition because I had [00:06:00] my own work, I had my own responsibilities, I had my own questions, and that was much, much more personal and, and therefore also transformative.

Um. I also very much liked the, the, the interdisciplinarity of these expeditions. It was my first expeditions were not super diverse. And, uh, these expeditions during my PhD were together with, uh, colleagues from the biology, from geochemistry, from um, water chemistry, you name it. And, uh, to learn from everyone.

Uh, to, to work together on the big picture. That was very transformative. So that was the early expeditions, um, to the, uh, middle of the Atlantic actually, that, that sparked my interest. I was a geochemist at this time still, so I, I worked on, on some questions how rocks changed under certain, at certain, uh, circumstances.

Uh, but yeah, and, and it's also what, what I like. I mentioned interdisciplinarity a few times now and, and, uh, [00:07:00] diversity and, and, and research topics. And that's also what, what I like here at Ocean Quest at the moment because, um, that's, that's how we define, uh, ocean science, that we bring together scientists, engineers, storytelling, media, uh, early career researchers and so to together to, to explore together and share the discoveries as well.

So this, this thought, you can't do it alone. Uh, was every time behind me as well, so that's, yeah. Cool. That is how I cemented the, the thought to stay in the research. 

Mehmet: Very, very inspiring. Uh, Dr. Niko now, so we are talking about, you know, discoveries and big discoveries. So maybe you can give us some, uh, some, some of these, you know, uh, that maybe you have done even recently at Ocean Quest.

Like anything you can highlight to us. And, you know, uh, I know like you do a lot, you did a lot of, of, of things also, and, [00:08:00] and, uh. Uh, on the Red Sea also as well, like a, anything you can mention to us. 

Augustin: Um. I may can give you a few examples. I will keep it very brief. Sure. Uh, the first one would be, that was a very surprising, uh, discovery in the Atlantic Ocean.

Actually, that was before my Red Sea time really starts. Mm-hmm. Actually in between you don't, you never work on just only one topic in research. But when we were mapping in the Atlantic, then we found in our maps and in the hydro acoustic data, so basically the, the, um, acoustic signals from the sea floor, we found something that looked to us like, uh, lava flows where we would not have expected them.

And, uh, these lava flows turned out to be only in geological timescales only 40,000 years old, and they were laying on 20 million years old, uh, oceanic crust and. So we went there to, to study them a little bit [00:09:00] more in detail and, uh, found out that the chemistry of this lava were completely different from the surrounding area and also completely different from what we found elsewhere.

And we probably have here new style of so-called Interplate volcanism. Uh, we are still working on the results, um, and having a new paper hopefully submitted very soon, uh, in the Red Sea. Uh, it was quite surprising to me because I started working in the Red Sea about 15 years ago and had no idea about Red Sea.

I just had a few bit mm-hmm. Textbooks knowledge. I got a new position. Uh, we started mapping in the Red Sea, and somehow the structures that we mapped were somehow not really fitting. To what I learned from this, from, from the textbooks. And here basically we, we took some old data and some new data and, and interpretations of old data.

We reinterpreted because of sometimes you can interpret data in different ways, uh, based on your, on your [00:10:00] background knowledge. And so we basically saw that the Red Sea rift, what was always thought to be a little bit odd different than other, um, um. Opening oceans, uh, open ocean or young ocean basins. Um, that, that the Red Sea is actually like all the others, but with some own oddities in between.

So it's, it, it was very nice, uh, work that, that we could hear. Bring the Red Sea along with the global ocean, uh, uh, mid ocean rich system. So that was something new that was exciting. It was also hard to publish, to be, uh, uh, honest. Uh, because if you have something new in your mind and that's not really widely accepted knowledge, then it's often hard to, to, uh, do something like that.

Um, and the most exciting in the recent years, uh, which is very recent, was that we found the first, um, hydrothermal. Uh, wind systems in the Red Sea, it was always inferred that there are some, [00:11:00] some hot water springs coming out at the sea floor. Uh, there are some, some areas in the Red Sea that are known and believed to be hydrothermal, but was, it was never visually.

Uh, um, a scene and, and never observed within diving robot, uh, on under, um, with the life around. And so that, that was really exciting that we, we searched for them, uh, for many years already. And finally we could find them a couple of years ago and we are still working. Together with the colleagues here at k at the cost university where we are located and also others, uh, we are still working on these, uh, hydrothermal fields in which is very, very exciting to us.

Great. This, this, yeah, please go ahead. This, this kind of discovery is basically, uh, also what, what, what, what I really like because it brings together science technology. Uh, if you find something visually ap appealing as well, then, then you can do some, [00:12:00] some nice, uh, storytelling about the, the exploration and discoveries as well.

So it's not only exciting to us, it's also exciting to the, to the, um, uh, public quite often. And, uh, maybe the chemistry of a lava flow is not too exciting to the general republic, but, but, uh, hydrothermal event fields, uh, and opening on of ocean basins, I think that's, that's quite interesting. And the entire.

Thing around. It's, it's also what, what we uh, what we like here at Ocean Quest as well, basically. So it's, it's really this discovery thing, the new stuff, high risk research, right. That, that is, that is what we like to do. 

Mehmet: Cool. Dr. Nico, like, uh, you know, maybe listeners are, are, or if someone, you know, uh, just saw even the episode title when it goes out, they would, they would, you know, wonder, I'm sure, and I wonder myself when we talk.

You know about, um, you know, exploration of deep [00:13:00] sea, right. And oceans, like, what does the process looks like? Like, uh, I know it's a very loaded question, right? But I mean, maybe, probably, you know, what, on a high level, what's, what's involved? Like, um, you know, I know like. Pretty sure you need to do some scanning at the beginning and then, you know, deciding like what's the best spot to start the exploration from.

And then, so if you can unpack this process to us, like how does it look like, and maybe, you know, what is the most challenging part technically in all this? 

Augustin: Sure. Um, as you said, it's not very straightforward in most cases, and we don't have a. Uh, and, and, and a receipt that we always use for every single expedition.

But in general, you can say we always start with some kind of mapping. So we use the, the multiple multibeam sonars, uh, uh, that we have on, on, on our ships, uh, [00:14:00] for creating the first maps. So you get a 3D imagination of, uh, of the sea floor. It's kind of Google Earth, but in, in a much, much better and higher resolution.

Um. And then we can see the structure of our targets that we have. Every expedition usually also starts with a general, uh, question anyway. Uh, but we need those maps to, uh, get a feeling for how did the, the terrain looks in detail, and also to, um, prepare the dives with our, um, vehicles. So if you have an autonomous vehicle that needs to know roughly, at least.

How the surface, uh, down there is looking. And you also need, uh, these maps for, for planning your, your robot dives. So you can interpret the structures and say, well, I am looking for this or that feature and this or that feature can, might be connected to this. And that structure that I see in my maps. Uh, once we have the maps and we have the vehicles in the water, we also want to then, [00:15:00] uh, collect our data.

Of course, um, we collect. Uh, video data photos, but also with the manipulation arms of the, uh, vehicles. We can collect rocks, fluid samples, sediments, biological samples. Of course. Uh, we basically also ground truth, what we see in the maps and what we interpret from the maps. And then of course, we need to do a lot of data integration and, and analysis.

Um. That, that we, we merged the mapping with the imaging and the samples that we get. And this is basically also connected to the, the technical challenges. So we, we have an extreme environment with a high pressure. There's no GPS signal, there is no light. So we need to, can, can only work with acoustic signals, uh, in, in the deep, uh, basically most of the time.

Try to explore blind kind of, because you can't see far the, the light is also not reaching far that we have on our vehicles. Uh, the data volume is huge. Sometimes nowadays we [00:16:00] collecting, uh, 4K, eight K video, and so you collect terabytes permission. So that's the, the, the, you need to deal with all this data and then come integrating everything is also a very big challenge afterwards then.

So we have tons of data and. So this is also with, with our expeditions, uh, in future that, that we need to combine. Uh, so you have the people's experience. Yeah. So the people's experience is basically defining the mission planning, so we know for what we look often it's, or at least we have an idea for what we are looking, uh, but we need to have the robots in the water and, and high computing power and, and ideas how to.

To combine all the data into the big picture. So there's, there's not the patent for the expedition, but we follow some certain, uh, uh, protocols. Of course. Uh. 

Mehmet: And really, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, like this is [00:17:00] very, it really looks very exciting, you know, and you're mentioning data and you're mentioning analysis and you're mentioning, you know, all these things.

And of course like there's these, um, you know, what we used even like back in the days to see them on the tv, you know, when I was even kid, you know, like these equipments and social equipments that you need to manufacture sometimes just for these use cases as like high pressure because, you know, um, when you go deep in the sea or in the ocean, like.

You, you need to have the thing that can support that kind Also. Now mentioning all this and talking about, you know, technology, um, um, how are you seeing, you know, what's happening as emerging technology? I mean, in parallel, like whether it's ai, whether it's like, I don't know, digital twins. Um, I don't know, but like plenty of technologies happening, you know, in parallel how you see these, you know, affecting or let's say transforming the ocean.

The ocean, uh, explorations, um, from, from, from your perspective. 

Augustin: So. [00:18:00] I think there's not the, the one technology, it's, it's more that mm-hmm. That we need to evolve more what we have already. So, uh, we have autonomous diving systems, we have, uh, camera guided systems, the, the ROV remotely operating vehicles. We have, uh, the autonomous, I already set, we have different camera systems, different sensors available, uh, that we use all the time.

The problem is often that these systems are often not, not connected very well, and we have maybe one autonomous vehicle in the water and one remotely operated vehicle in the water, but not, not a multitude. And these, if, if we could accelerate, um. And there's AI may be coming in into the, uh, the game. If you could accelerate the, the, um, autonom, how, what is the word?

So they, the, the vehicles need to become more autonomous mm-hmm. And more reliable, [00:19:00] um, need to be able to make own decisions if needed, um, and communicate somehow. So I'm, I'm not an engineer, but I would wish that they can communicate much better and then we can, uh, enable, um, for instance, AOV farms so that, that you have multiple vehicles at the same time in the water to make the, the deep sea research much more effective because the ocean is vast.

It's, it's a huge area. And, and we always cover only a very small, uh, bit of the sea floor. And if you can accelerate this, this, the effectiveness. Of, of the ocean research. So we have many, many tools already at hand, but they are not effective enough for the moment. Mm-hmm. And that's maybe something that, that I could think of in the future so that we have AI tools that make the vehicles talk and bring them to own decisions.

If there's an obstacle, I avoid it and continue my mission. Uh, if I find a signal what the scientists. [00:20:00] I find are searching for, I can see it and I follow it. Now, that's not possible at the moment. Um, I can tell the vehicle that is operating just a kilometer across, uh, this ale plane. Oh, here I found something.

Come over and, and help me mapping this, or something like that, that that would be very helpful. 

Mehmet: Cool. Yeah. This is, this is, uh, something I'm expecting it not only in in your domain, but in every single domain. But to your point, you know, like, um, AI being able, um, to de-risk, probably maybe some of these explorations, sometimes doctor, maybe, you know.

Right. Uh, so 

Augustin: yeah, there's may, maybe one, one more thing is, uh, to say, um, that. Uh, digital twinning is also a nice thing to do. I mean, it, it is done partially today already, that, that we tried to, to create a digital. Um, uh, yeah, a, a copy of an, of a real system that we can start to [00:21:00] play with, um, different settings.

So what happens if wind change? What happens if currents change? What happens if the sea gets warmer? What happens if, uh, an environmental accident happens? Yeah. So that, that you can, uh, have tools for, for, um, crisis management, for climate management and so on. Um. But also at sea. Those, those things would be very handy that you have a live digital twin of your, of your working area, that humans and AI can, can start together, um, make a very, very effective mission planning.

That's the goal. That's the data that we have. How can we make it as efficient as possible? And so that's also something. What we hear at, at Ocean Fest have, and our agenda to, to push this forward, to go into the direction of, of, uh, robotics forms mm-hmm. Uh, have, uh, um, ocean twinning, multi-vehicle exploration, um, and, and, and these topics.

So it's very exciting to be here actually, because this is the topics that, that [00:22:00] we want to change. 

Mehmet: Absolutely. And you know, what you're mentioning, you know, uh, intersects with what you know. AI experts are saying in all other domains about collaboration between humans and the machines. Um, you know, it's not like the machine gonna go by itself and do exploration, so still the human aspect is needed and this is, you know, yeah.

Um, some of my guests, they call it like, uh, coworker, some of them they call it like, uh, you know, co-planner. Name it whatever you want, but it's like, yeah, it's like you have someone helping you. It's like a machine helping you in, in, in maybe the repetitive task or you know, the task that needs a lot of compute, compute and uh, uh, planning.

And then you focus on the main thing. Now, um, recently, you know, you, we've done. Uh, an expedition called around Africa. Um mm-hmm. And you mapped around, uh, like, or maybe over 2,600 kilometers squares of sea floor, [00:23:00] and you engaged hundreds of African students. Like why was this expedition designed the way it was and what were the major outcomes like both on scientific perspective, technological, and even social?

Augustin: Yeah, so the around Africa Expedition was a joint mission between Ocean Quest and Ocean ix. Mm-hmm. And, uh, it was. Built on, on an opportunity actually that as, as you may know, ocean, uh, quest does not have an own ship at the moment. We are working on that. And, uh, the opportunity was that the, uh, research vessel from Ocean X, the Ocean Explorer, had to go to Europe for some maintenance, some plant maintenance, and also to be, uh, at the, uh, un the UN Ocean Conference, uh, this year, uh, where we also have been with Ocean Crest and.

Um, it, it, it turned basically, we. We knew about this, this, uh, transit, [00:24:00] and we were communicating with OceanX to turn this pure transit into a research voyage, uh, and the training expedition. So we invited scientists from, from all Africa. So it was South Africa and, and, uh, um, Kenya, Tanzania, Mozambique, uh, but also the, the islands, uh, coms.

Uh, then some from, from Madagascar. We had some guests from South America and Europe as well. Um. And South Africa and Kaboda were leading two of the, uh, science leggs during this expedition. So we invited all the scientists, uh, to, to join us for, uh, some research time. And, uh, in between the research time we had hundred leggs, where we invited, uh, young career.

Uh, scientists to come with us, uh, for some training. Uh, the expedition started in Uras. We worked then on the sea mount, uh, south of Madagascar. Uh, quite a, uh, time. This, that, this target was chosen because it was a [00:25:00] former fishing ground, heavily overfished and uh, which is now slowly recovering, uh, as a under, it is a marine protected area since 2018, and that's why we wanted to have a look.

Uh, there, how is it recovering? It's doing okay. It's not that fast recovering, but it's doing okay. Um, on the way to Cape Town, we met in some other sea mounts as well. Um, weather and wind of course prohibited that We did more there. That happens at sea. And in Cape Town the ship was then open for, uh, public outreach.

So that's where also many, many students, school students, uh, university students, uh, interested public could visit the vessel, learn about ocean research. It was a lot of, uh, outreach activities. And we also had a workshop with the colleagues, uh, in, uh, Cape Town to, um, discuss about the expedition, about next steps.

Um, then this continued, uh, via Namibia to, uh, Cabo, uh, where we had done lots [00:26:00] of, uh, so-called ops, early Career Ocean Professionals, uh, on board that learned about. Sampling strategies, mapping, um, and so on. You name it, that we had some, some faculty, uh, onboard as well that then trained the students, uh, on, it's not the students, it's the early careers.

Uh, um, they were then trained in some special techniques as well, and. Yeah, in the end, uh, we had then one, uh, other research lack, um, offshore carve where we, where we studied the double sea mount system, uh, partially even together with the German research vessel, the meteor. So we, we shared some, some work and shared some mapping and hydrotic data and also some, um, video footage.

And it ended in the end in Grand Canaria after another short training cruise. So that was the, the, the main thing of the, around Africa Expedition. Was not just getting new maps on the transit and some new data on the sea mounts. It was really this, this, this bringing together the [00:27:00] research community, um, in the area as well.

And, and, and building also trust and collaboration across all the regions, uh, that the regions, which was really, really nice. And, uh, from our perspective at Ocean Quest, um, and Ocean X as well, uh, a, a very big success. 

Mehmet: Good to know. And, uh, looks like it was an exciting, real journey actually. It's not like a virtual journey.

It was a real journey. Yeah. Um, adventurous, but yet also like, uh, has a lot of purpose. Um, now mentioning about all these things, uh, Dr. Nico, like, um. Running these, uh, expeditions and, you know, taking care of all the logistics and, you know, you have multiple things going on. Right? Yeah. Um, you mentioned also like you operate on nonprofit, right?

So, so [00:28:00] I ho I mean, I, I, I. You know, concluded that also like maybe there will be some budget constraints. There are like remote, uh, operations, high stakes. There are like risks. All kinds of risk. So, and what, so what, what kind of, of, you know, lessons, leadership lessons, um, you know, can, can be extracted? I would say, uh, you know, that you might share either with people who are in the same domain or, you know, you think like, this can apply for even business people.

Augustin: So. Every expedition. Yeah. Is I, I mentioned it before already. Briefly, every expedition starts with a clear mission goal or statement. So, uh, you, you, you can't do whatever you want with your precious time at sea so that there's the budget constraints, right? I mean, uh, in, in, in marine research, [00:29:00] uh, time is money, literally.

So the more. Every minute, every hour, uh, costs a lot of money. It's, it's like in space, uh, exploration aspect. And so you need to have a mission statement. So basically the, the, the clarity of the purpose needs to be there. And I think that's also applying for, for, um, young companies that you should define yourself.

Um, what is the aim? What is the goal? And then every decision basically becomes a bit easier, uh, for, for, for your, um, journey. Uh, and for your, for your, in our case expeditions. Um, what is very important, even if you have this, uh, mission statement, um, you also need to plan for. A lot of uncertainty at sea.

Things never go really as planned. We, we have the jo joke in the, in, in, in the community that you're handing in your working plan and the working plan, you [00:30:00] basically can destroy in the moment you leave the port because. Things will never go as planned, but you can stick to as, as good as possible. And at Cedars the weather, the equipment maybe is not working, the weather is not, uh, cooperating.

Uh, you may don't have the permit in time for if you work in, in foreign waters. Um, so in our case, the success comes from, from. Prepare being prepared for some changes. Be flexible, uh, with your plan, and also trust the team basically to adapt. So, um. If the team starts to, to be scared because things are not working out, but then you're lost.

But if you have the teamwork, then, and, and you, you brainstorm together, what can we do? What is, what shall we change? How can we adapt? So this is, uh, very important. Um, speaking about the team is then basically also the, um, empower the team and don't micromanage. Yeah, so it's [00:31:00] basically, uh, you, you don't want to control everything.

Uh, what happens if the chief scientist is sleeping? Do we need to wake him up or her? Uh, it's, it's, it's sometimes the team should be able to make important decisions or so, um, you have different shifts on a, on a ship, so teams need to be, um. Uh, empowered and not micromanaged. Um, so that's, that's also when you have an a company, you basically hire smart and you, you need to delegate clearly.

Uh, but you have to trust the, the company, uh, the, the competence of, of, of your people as well. And that's also what, and also when people are trusted, it's the same owner, the ship as well. If I'm trusting the, the, the early career student, uh, uh, the professional so that the young PhD student or the, the, the younger scientists where they, they feel, then also more accountability because it's, it's their responsibility now and they also try to, [00:32:00] to work together with you.

That brings in also the common communication in, in, in play, so. Uh, you need to plan for uncertainty. You have to empower your people, but you also need to communicate as clear as possible and as calm as possible. I mean, it's, it's, it's not helping if the, if, if you are in bad weather and the time is short and you have to bring the ROV, uh, the, the, the operating, uh, the, the remotely operating vehicle or your robot into the water, or you plant like this, and then you're panicking and, and, uh, start to scream around because stuff is not working.

No, you need to remain as calm as possible. Listen to your, to your people, your, to your team, and make the decisions when, when the time is, is there. It might not be the perfect posi uh, decision. It might not be the real one, but you have to take a decision at, at, at time, at at some time, which is then based on what you know, and, and, uh, to, to fulfill the goals that as, as good as possible, and [00:33:00] also if something went good or not good.

Um, so reflect on this afterwards. So talk with your team, not to blame people, but to learn. So basically that you have lessons, learn, uh, lessons learned, uh, uh, sessions, and you don't need to make, uh, self help group after every, uh, uh, uh, action that you, that you're taking. But basically, usually I have it on, on my expeditions, always every day.

You have a team meeting, you're discussing the next steps the next day, but also discuss things which were maybe not working very well. So it comes all together to, to, um, uh, clarity, trust, and adapt. Uh, uh, adapt. Uh, what is to adapt? Adaptability. Adapt adaptability. Thank you. Yeah. So that's so, and, and keep the hierarchies, uh, low because if you have very strong hierarchies.

Uh, it may work in some, uh, environments, but it's not working in on, on [00:34:00] this expedition, uh, environment. The roles need to be clearly defined of course, but, but if the environment is, is not predictable, uh, then your team is still more reliable system. And if you then have super strong, uh, and, and high hierarchies, that's also maybe not the best way to work.

That's, you know 

Mehmet: what? Yeah. What, what? Um. Uh, you know what, I can take myself from what you mentioned, Dr. Nico is like, there's a old saying that, uh, I'm, I'm not sure which language is it, but, uh, like the Ocean teach people also to be patient. And, um, you know, uh, also at. They say like sometime the sea can can change mood, you know, at any time.

Yeah. And it's like all, when you are doing these expeditions, like you, you're passing through multiple leadership tests at the same [00:35:00] time. And you know what came to my mind, like maybe. A, as part of a leadership program, they should, they should send them, maybe not, of course, like Monte, but I don't know, maybe to explore the ocean with, with, with someone like yourself who, you know, to see like really how, how, how you, you act, you know, for, for different circumstances.

And you met you. You just gave us like a couple of examples. Now, one thing quickly, because we mentioned about also. You know, the planning and all this, how are you seeing, or like, uh, do you, do you think there's enough collaboration with the, with the private sector, you know, when it comes to, to, to this sector?

Uh, do we have, you know, enough support? I would say, um, when it comes to collaboration or like, there's still some, some work to be done. 

Augustin: We do actually collaborate already a lot with, uh, young companies, startups, uh, in [00:36:00] the, um, area of, of yeah, marine operations. So there are many companies, uh, that are building, um, robotics systems.

Uh, there are many companies that building software solutions and sensor solutions and, um, it's always nice to get. Fresh ideas in, into the, um, system, right? So, uh, it's often that, that science and, and startups aim for different, or for the same outcome, but they have, uh, they speak kind of different languages.

That that's something what, uh, what might, sometimes, this may be a little bit tricky, but, but we have shared goals and, and, um. So it would be nice or it is actually nice. And, uh, this is something for younger startups of, of people that maybe think about going in this direction, um, to establish or to have, um, partnerships [00:37:00] that add a real value for both sides.

So the good a, a good strategy is to, um. To work together with the science and then work on the tools and the solutions that are actually needed, not just develop something and, and no one needs it in the end. So the good thing is, uh, like I already mentioned, maybe have software solutions for better communications and, and ity of, uh, of, of, uh, vehicles underwater.

Um, develop sensors that are really needed in. Any ocean related environment, if it's the science or monitoring or whatever, uh, work on other platforms that that can benefit both communities because we are collecting a lot of data, but maybe there are startups that could also work with the data. So that goes in, in both direction, that that's open.

Data and interoperability is, is possible and uh, scientists are usually not the best. [00:38:00] Um. Programmers for those things. So that's what be also then young, uh, uh, minds that could generate, uh, software that is, uh, uh, helping to, to, to work with all the data that we are generating. And so that this is also something what we think of here at Ocean Quest actually, that, that we may can also serve as a connector.

So to bring together scientists. Engineers and the startups together at sea, because it has been done in the past. It will be done in the future. And, uh, it's for, for the region here in Saudi Arabia. It's also a very exciting possibility because to, for, for young companies, for young mines to open startups in the, uh, blue economy, so to say, to, to work together with, uh, with us and other research institutes as well.

Mehmet: Right. And this is, you know, uh, it's, it, [00:39:00] it, you, you mentioned nicely. Now relating to the, to the next question that I had. Um, we, we studied this in, in geography books since we are kids and still hopefully they are teaching the same, that ocean discover, you know, 70% of earth surface, right? Um, yet there are a lot of things which we don't know.

Like we, we know, like maybe we scan the moon more than we scan the, the deep ocean. Um. What else? You know, we can discover what, what, what, what do you think, you know, what excites you, uh, Dr. Nico from, you know, both urological and maybe technological perspectives about things we don't know about the deep ocean.

Augustin: Yeah. I mean, know, knowing more about the moon or the miles is comparably easy. You basically just have to look right, right? There's no water and, uh, water. Is that what, what makes, uh, the ocean, uh, research so hard? So, [00:40:00] um, for, for the expedition, the excitement never, never fades away. That's not the one thing, uh, uh, that, that.

That I want to find also. But with every expedition that that we are doing, we find something, something new, uh, something unexpected possibly as well. And, and so yeah, we always feel like explorers. Uh, the real frontier, I would say. So the deep ocean is, is the real, uh, uh, franchise. So with saying deep in fat letters and in bold letters, uh, because.

This is vastly understudied. Uh, it's a huge area of the ocean and, uh, it's largely, uh, unmapped and it, it. For sure host ecosystems that we don't know of yet. Uh, it will host live forms that we don't know yet, uh, that we have never seen, and this is exciting enough already that, that we can [00:41:00] go down at any deep spot and, uh.

It's, it will be different in some aspects than the spot that we visits, uh, visited before, before our time and before modern multibeams. Uh, were in action. So the, the, the, the mapping devices for the deep ocean and before we had the high resolution maps, uh, many scientists in geology, in biology, uh, thought that the deep ocean planes are just.

Yeah, flat. They are plain, they, they're full of sediment, they're boring. There's nothing happening. Uh, but we do know in the meantime that also the, the, the, the deep ocean is an active environment. It's geologically active. It's biologically active. There are big mountains. There are. Huge cliffs fractures that want wait to be explored basically.

And uh, even if you have a large group of sea mounts and underwater mountains, uh, that, that, that are standing, uh, in the deep of the ocean, um, there are oasis of life. [00:42:00] And then not one sea mount is exactly looking like the other. It's not like that, that, that you can visit one of the sea mounts to. Make some, uh, biological assessment.

Look who is living there? What is living there? What is the geology? Uh, the next cement might be completely different. It's maybe geologically and morphologically. Uh, very close, but the biology will most certainly be completely different. The, the, the community, the, the ecosystem is different, and that has then to do with, uh, ocean currents and so on and so on.

So, yeah, the, the entire deep ocean system is, is super, uh, understudied, and that's again, it's so big. That just one research vessel or one robot will not make a difference. And that's why I was talking about this interconnected autonomous fleets. Um mm-hmm. And I think, I think at the moment there's a lot of, of, um, push [00:43:00] and, and, and a lot of will in the international community, um, that, that we are at the moment moving towards a truly systematic global.

Um, scientific exploration. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's, and this is one of, of, of earth's, um, yeah, last Es I mean, space is the one, of course, but we are, I think we are doing quite well there already. And it's super exciting as well. I'm a fan, but, uh, the, the, uh, deep ocean, this is, this is really, really challenging.

And, uh, yeah. Systematic research of the deep is really important. 

Mehmet: How do we. How do we encourage more people to be in this Dr. Nico? Like I know, yeah. You mentioned space, like maybe space attract, attract, uh, people because of, you know, some fascinations we see, but they forget like, Hey, we have something much closer, you know, to us, which is our own oceans than the [00:44:00] stars.

Don't get me wrong, as to, to your point, I'm excited about space also as well, but I mean. What, what can be done? I mean, should we encourage? Yeah, and I mean, who, who, who should take, you know, you know, the, the, the lead and encourage like more to happen in this space? Like, uh, is it like something that governments have to do?

Is it like, uh, universities they have to offer and promote these programs more? Like who, who, or is it like just a collective, I would say effort among everyone. 

Augustin: The collective effort, I think is a good, uh, buzzword here because oceans, uh, science is hard to to communicate. Mm, because we don't see much. So you, you cannot just go down there and make a nice photo and, and publish it, and everyone is excited.

Uh, of course there are photos that they of, of very, very narrow. You don't get the big landscape. I mean, take a Hubble image [00:45:00] of the deep field, just point it to an empty spot in space. And it turned out to have thousands of galaxies in one shot. No one awaited pushed out by, by media. And it's super exciting.

Uh, if, if. What the scientists find, maybe a jellyfish. Very exciting. And that's maybe not directly. What's exciting? Uh, many people that don't like jellyfish because they are. Not so nice and stingy when they go for a swim in the ocean. Uh, so I think to, to show or to bring the, the excitement about deep ocean research back how it was in the sixties, seventies with, uh, the, the series from JA au.

And so that was a real excitement and, and we as the community in science, and always in media, also in media, in my opinion, we need to. Report more positive about the ocean. It's often that, that the ocean is seen only [00:46:00] negative. There's the monster waves. There is, of course, we, we cannot negate, uh, climate change.

The ocean is getting warmer, the ocean is under threat. In many cases. Um, but this is the only thing what, uh, it's, it's the major thing, what you see in media quite often. It's, it's the negative things. Um, but there's also the great discoveries like beautiful bacteria landscapes. Connected to hot water springs under the ocean, beautiful underwater lakes because of high salinity, salty lakes underwater.

Uh, there are the, the rift systems. There are active volcanoes. There are seas with, with huge reefs of coral that are independent from sunlight. Um, so there's lot of. Excitement or exciting things to show to the community as well. And if you show the positive things of the ocean, then it may also helps protecting it a bit more.[00:47:00] 

So at the moment. From my perspective, I always see that, that it's the important, but it's only the bad news that make it to the media, not the exciting stuff, even though in in space exploration. Your photograph is started. It has an unusual color and it's all over the media, right? And it's, it's, uh, it's this difference.

So Marine. The marine reel is re is not very, very presented in media, but we know that already since years and there are many, many teams working on that. It's, I, I think there's even one or two or three papers published about why is space exploration doing so much better in public outreach than, than marine exploration.

And, uh, yeah, I think this, this positiveness is one of the, of the things and it's hard to, to, to show how it looks like. And then it's, then it comes down to. If people want to be involved in, in marine research, it's [00:48:00] not only the, the researchers, I mean, you don't need to have a PhD degree to do marine research.

You can also, uh, the easiest thing is become a crew member. I mean, just become a seafarer and then you can already, uh, ex uh, experience to see, um, you can do internships, you can do, um. Yeah, there are countless entry points basically in school programs. Uh, they are of course the Blue Tech startups, but we are talking about they're citizen science projects.

Um, so you, there, there are access points to connect to ocean research. Um, but yeah, it's, it's, it's the, the task of all of us media, uh, scientists, um, and so on to, to push it a bit more into the public, um, awareness again. Yeah, 

Mehmet: right. This is, you know, uh, it's like a call to action from you, Dr. Nick also as well.

And, uh, um, [00:49:00] you know, to me this is, um, uh. Something that should be exciting to all of us. Right? So, so it's, uh, uh, you know, because we, you know, like it's, I, I, I compare it to when I, you know, like a child discovering, you know, his or her own bodies and you know, what they can do with it. And, you know, so like for us, like we are, you know, people of this earth and we should be able to understand, you know, this earth that we've been living on since, you know, s of yeas like.

What else? You know, like, uh, what kind of, of things, you know, we can discover, we can benefit for, for the rest of the humans. So this is what personally, you know, although like I'm not a scientist, but you know, uh, I, I would, uh, you know, be interested to follow what happens in, in that domain. Now as we are coming close to the end, like, final question to you, Dr.

Nico. Anything, you know, maybe I didn't ask, you want to mention it and how people can get in touch? 

Augustin: Um. [00:50:00] So I would like to mention this, this, this one, uh, I think it's not really a quote, but, uh, I think Jato said that at some point, uh, that, uh, people protect what I love. And they love what they know and, and some, I I, I really like this, this, this thinking, because we were talking about, we don't know that much about the deep sea.

Mm-hmm. If we know more, then we may learn to love it. And we would, we are also more eager to protect it, especially in the, in the, in the light of all the discussions which are going on at the moment about deep sea mining. And so, and I would really like to, to, uh, stress one more time that, that, uh, in the marine sciences and also here at Ocean Quest.

We do scientific exploration. So there's this really that we [00:51:00] focus on the questions, how the system is working, and, uh, this is what ex what is really exciting. We have, uh, and, and because the exploration wording. It's also lost a little bit of its meaning, uh, in, in the last years because if someone is talking about exploration, it's often connected to the negativity again, um, about, oh, you are only exploring the deep ocean because you want to find the precious metals.

And that's actually not the case. Even if I found a hydrothermal system, uh, I'm interested in the. Ecosystem around how is the system working? Why is it there? Uh, what is it producing, of course. But it's the curiosity driven, uh, thought. Um, what I would like to mention here one more time, uh, no worries. 

Mehmet: You can, yeah.

How can they can get in touch. 

Augustin: In touch very easy. So we have a website online. It's uh, oq foundation.org. Uh, and you can also find [00:52:00] us on Instagram. On LinkedIn and on x. Cool. Formerly known as Twitter. 

Mehmet: Absolutely. So, uh, you know, all the links will be available for, uh, the audience. They can see them in the show notes.

Um, feel, uh, free to get in touch and find all, uh, more about what, uh, Dr. Nico and the rest of the team are doing in that space. I really enjoyed the discussion with you today. Like, it's, it's kind of, uh, exciting. Uh, it's, it's, it's like fascinating, you know. Especially as I was telling you, discovering our own planet.

Like it's, it's, it's like, it's, it's our thing, right? And um, people sometimes, especially in these busy times when everyone is talking, you know, about the next big thing, ai, you know, and all, so we forget, like we have nature just. Around us and we can go and discover. And oceans, of course, are part of this.

So thank you very much, Dr. Nico for also reminding us on, on this. And finally, this is, [00:53:00] uh, how I end my epi episode. This is for the audience. Uh, if you just, you know, discovered this podcast, thank you for passing by. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did so, give me a favor. Follow us and share it with your friends and colleagues.

And if you are one of the people who keeps coming in again, who are loyals and they listen all the time, thank you very much for your support. Thank you very much for, you know, your feedbacks. I really appreciate all of this, and as I say, always stay tuned for a new episode very soon. Thank you. Bye-bye.

Augustin: Thank you, Mehmet.