#542 Human First Technology: Wesley Eugene on AI, Leadership, and the New Experience Era

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Mehmet: Hello, and welcome back to a episode of the CTO Show with Mehmet today. I'm very pleased joining me from the US Wesley Eugene. He's the SVP North America for HIT Global. Um, the way I love to do it, my audience know it by now, is I don't steal much [00:01:00] time from my guest, right? So I keep it to adapted with themselves.

Um, I'll give you the, the, the, the floor, uh, Wesley. But before doing so, uh, I'm giving a teaser to the audience. We're gonna talk a lot about, you know, leadership in technology. We're gonna talk about, you know, uh, transformation. We're gonna talk about human-centric approach and reskilling. But again, as I said, I don't like to steal much from my guests son.

Mm-hmm. Because this is the place for you, not for me. Without further ado, Wesley, tell us a little more about you, your background, your journey, and what you're currently up to. And then we're gonna start the discussion from there. 

Wesley: Okay. Uh, thank you so much, Mehmet. Um, I, I'm excited to be on the show, uh, a little bit about me.

So yes, currently I'm, uh, SVP for HIT Global. And I should make it clear that HIT doesn't stand for any kind of violence. It's quite the opposite. It's, uh, [00:02:00] HIT stands for humanizing it. And so, uh, HIT Global is, uh, on a mission to, uh, really drive integrated, uh, the integration of human-centered design with the delivery of IT services across the world.

Um, my partners in that business are Mark Basham, the former CEO of Axels, which is the, um, the body who, um, the certifying body who used to own ITIL before they sold it to a company called People cer. And the other, the other partner and, and really the co-founder of, um, HIT Global is Katrina McDermott.

Katrina McDermott is NI o expert. Um, there's only a few of those in the world. Not only is she a ITIL expert, but she also studied human centered design. [00:03:00] And, um, she's also a contributing co-author to ITIL version four, and she wrote a book called Human Centered Design for IT Service Management. What led her to write the book is as she was being a contributing co-author for itil, and having studied so much about itil, she realized there are only two people, so to speak, represented in itil on all of itil.

There's only the end user and the VIP. That's it. End user, VIP no other humans allowed. So she, she realized right then and there that something was missing as she was studying human-centered design. The way she and I got connected is, um, before HIT Global, I was a partner and CIO at ID. Mm-hmm. Um, that's where Kat and I [00:04:00] first met, because while I was working there and she was, uh, reaching out to me to get my opinion of her book, she also, um, I was also leading a digital transformation at IDO and what's important to under I, I'll, I'll go into more details about that digital transformation, but I think it's important for your listeners to know if they're not familiar with ideo.

IDEO is Silicon Valley's best kept secret. It is literally, um, they can count Steve Jobs as customer number one. And the big problem that Steve came to ideal with was he wanted to introduce this thing called an apple mouse to the world. And so the original prototype for this was a butter tray and a stick roll on deodorant and duct tape.

It's from there that we continue to iterate, built rapidly and designed [00:05:00] to ultimately have the innovation of the apple mouse that we have today, among many other innovations that IDO has done since. So it was an amazing environment to be a part of. And, uh, that's where Kat and I first met, and that's where I was leading digital transformation.

But I'll, I'll pause, uh, because I, I, I sense a question, 

Mehmet: uh, Wesley, like you, you usually, I, I prepare questions in my mind, but mentioning this, it, it, it made me make this, it's not a question, but it's kind of something that I would confess to people, uh, about, you know. The concept of, uh, design thinking and, you know, the whole thing, which you, you, you just gave a perfect example about the mouse and then how you need to, to start like prototyping and take feedback and then, you know, try to iterate until you come up with the perfect product.

Right. So, [00:06:00] so this triggered me like, and I like when you said. It's Silicon Valley's best kept secret. Um, and, and, and it's funny because just today I was, you know, trying to explain the same concept without mentioning the company name to, to group of people who were asking me like, okay, we are lost. We don't know how to start.

Like we want to build that big thing. And I was telling them, no, you should go and try to, you know, come up with an MVP and then try to, you know, show it to people. Take their feedback. Right. Anyway, um, I decided to start from this. I gotta go to the digital transformation and your experience, Wesley. Kind of, maybe it's, I'm not sure if it's only me or someone from my listeners would, would ask like, why it need to be humanized.

Like when we talk about, um, technology, everyone [00:07:00] thinks like, yeah, it's, it's like that the machine do its job. Like, uh, and you know, why do we need to keep this human aspect of the it us Lee? 

Wesley: You know, I really love that question. I really deeply love that question. Um, because as I'm sitting with it right now, I have to admit, um, this need is a need that is time-based.

And what do I mean by that? I mean time in, in terms of era. Like this is where we are in the world today. When it first went as, as we first went into the technology revolution, we, you know, internet computing, all of that started to really have a boom cycle in the eighties. Um, it was just magic, right? And so there was no need to humanize the machines at that point.

The [00:08:00] machines, um, bought massive amounts of productivity to us in an exponential way, and that was fine. Um, what we've done to standardize the use of the machines is we doubled down on systems and we tripled down on processes. So much of what governs technology today is a very intense and rigorous framework.

Of, uh, sys systems and process centric, uh, uh, uh, governance. And so when you step up from that, um, what you realize is that you can follow a process perfectly, but leave the person behind. You can literally execute a process perfectly, but it still falls short of addressing the needs of real people. And this is the age that we're in.[00:09:00] 

Um, it, it is really critical. I think, um, and I'm sure we'll get into this more, but with the introduction of AI and as we're moving into this time where AI is ubiquitous, um, what's happening is that all the layers of technology are moving towards, um, automation. So as you basically automate the backend, the what happens is ultimately we're moving up the threshold to the only layer that matters is the experience layer.

The experience layer is that layer where you and I are the layer where people are exchanging goods and services. Having conversations is the one that we touch and feel and experience, right? The experience layer. And so, um, but hu But, but the, the, the, the, the bottom line though, Miette, is that it is time to [00:10:00] humanize technology.

Um, not because that's just what the market demands, uh, but it's also because, uh. Technology as we know it today, is not people-centric. It's process-centric, and that's where we lose people. 

Mehmet: Wesley, this is very deep, you know, uh, and this is, you know, where we can discuss both together. I think this is, this is a, a, a kind of a parallel path to discussing, because you mentioned when at the beginning we started to utilize it.

By the way, I'm not sure if you agree with me, I don't like to use the word it anymore. Um, I, I like to, to call it, you know, the, the technology, right? Because 

Wesley: Yeah. 

Mehmet: Uh, yeah, for, for me, like everything became kind of a technology driven, but anyway, it's a discussion maybe for another time. Now we, we, we started it from a place, so I, I like to go back, you know, [00:11:00] so we, we figured out that.

By digitizing and taking our information from a paper and pen wall to a digital world would make things better, right? Mm-hmm. And this is, you know, where of course, like there were a lot of things that happen that started to push this digital transformation now. I had a lot of guests and, you know, outside of the podcast, and I was involved in these digital transformation not as a decision maker more than, you know, sometimes as a vendor role, sometimes as an observer.

Mm-hmm. 

Mehmet: But I noticed what on the point about, you know, the process, uh, uh, Wesley. So what I noticed is actually the transformation is understood wrongly by a lot of people. Surprisingly, till today even we've been talking about digital [00:12:00] transformation. I don't know, since how long now, I forget. I, I stopped counting how many years and we started to see even this in the press where.

At least I can talk about the, the, the area I am living in, in, in the, in the Middle East region. So we heard about like, hey, companies spent a lot of money on digital transformation, but actually they didn't see returns. They don't say it failed, but they say they don't, they didn't see returns. Sometime I see articles saying, uh, it didn't fulfill the promises that happened and you know, executives now think that it was waste.

Now from your point of view, and you have led digital transformations before, Wesley, what do you think the main cause for things, you know, as, uh, you know, I like this term, going south, going wrong. Right? What goes wrong during a [00:13:00] transformation? 

Wesley: Yeah, uh, that's a great question. Um, and it's a, uh, it's not one thing, right?

It's, it's, yeah. It, it tends to be multiple things. So, um, one of the reasons that digital transformations fail, um, and have such a high failure rate, um, is partly due to an inability of the folks leading that transformation to stay connected to the purpose of it. In other words. So you, you start a digital transformation and what people often do is they lock in to the original reason.

And they, they, they, they have this confirmation by its setting, so they are going to move [00:14:00] forward with this. They're not gonna adjust a plan no matter what. Action is changing on the ground. Um, that, that, that is, that's one part of what happens. Another thing that happens is that folks, most times when they're driving digital transformation, they cease to be agile.

Like, I'm, don't get me wrong, I mean, they could be using Scrum, but they cease to have, uh, an agility of thought, an agility of reason. And where that, where that impacts things is as things are dynamic. We live in a very dynamic world, right? Um, as things are dynamically shifting, they don't adjust. And so that leads to failure.

Uh, you know, another thing frankly, is. Oftentimes people just lose faith. So people, people oftentimes, they [00:15:00] go on a digital transformation journey and they had a compelling case to begin with, but after time, um, they, they put, they, they think that just because I sold it once, it's sold forever. That's not true.

Buy-in is continuous, right? So when you articulate, we need to go on this transformation journey, and this is the reason why. You actually have to continue to nurture and keep storytelling and keep the stakeholders engaged. They have to understand what's in it for them. And it can't just be a lofty corporate goal, but really everyone involved, everyone critical to the delivery of this digital transformation must be able to see themselves in it.

I like to, um, we've all heard the famous story of, uh, many of us have when, um, John F. Kennedy was, was at the, uh, was, [00:16:00] was, was touring the space, the, the space, uh, center. And he encountered, uh, a, a janitor who, he encountered a man who was sweeping floors. And he asked the guy, what is your job here? And he said, sir, I'm here to put a man on the moon.

This guy was able to connect his work, no matter how humble it may seem, to the ultimate mission of putting a man on the moon, that's true buy-in. And obviously we are able to accomplish that goal. When we look at digital transformation, leaders oftentimes fail at achieving that amount, that kind of buy-in, where everyone understands what the mission is and their role in it, no matter how small, no matter how big, no matter how, uh, [00:17:00] consequential, they all can see themselves in it.

They're fully locked in. 

Mehmet: This is, again, very deep, Wesley. Now, let me ask you this as a follow up question. So, do you think this happens because sometimes. We rush things because, and by the way, uh, I have to confess also as well, uh, and this is we're gonna discuss ai. Do you think there is kind, I'm not sure if formal like fear of missing out will be the right term to use here.

But like for example, when when I am an executive at a company and I see another company that they did fantastically well, you know, digital transformation that led them increasing their revenue, they became, you know, a more, you know, customer centric because of the technologies that they've [00:18:00] implemented.

And now I'm sitting here kind having envy maybe also as well, like, Hey, I need to do what these guys have done. And I start to rush everyone in the company to say, Hey guys, you know what we need to do this digital transformation thing. Go and, and do your job. Do you think this is part of the issues that happened also because there was no proper planning.

You mentioned about, you know, how this long vision, when you gave the example of the, of the moon, uh, mission, how this spread across every single one in the organization, so everyone understood why they're doing what they do. 

Wesley: Yes. 

Mehmet: While in the other side, I just say, Hey, I I want to be modern, transform everything digital.

Like, is is that an, is that the issue ly? 

Wesley: Yeah, in fact, so you remember earlier in That's definitely part of it. A big part. In fact, [00:19:00] I would, uh, remind you like earlier in the conversation, you, you said, Hey, you know what? I really like to speak about technology, not it, and I'm, I, by the way, we're in wild agreement on that.

You know, um, I think that's a proper frame, but I want, wanna reframe this conversation around digital transformation as well. 

Mehmet: Sure. 

Wesley: I think we often lose the, lose the entire game because we have forgotten it's truly a business transformation. Digital is just a means to an end, right? Um, but it's a business transformation that we're actually undergoing and we're modernizing how we meet our customers, our needs and meet the needs of all the key stakeholders that are vital to this business.

And so, you know, I, I just mentioned that moment because, um, one of the biggest calls of digital transformation is when you're chasing the [00:20:00] technology. I mean, I'm sure you've heard terms like, oh yeah, we went on the cloud transformation really. You chase the cloud, that, that seemed to be a smart thing to do.

Like it, you know, uh, technology is amazing, but technology has, is, and I believe always will be a means to an end. And so what is the outcome that you're truly seeking? And I believe those outcomes are experiences ultimately, right? 

Mehmet: Mm-hmm. 

Wesley: So, uh, you need to have your experiences, whether you're looking at the experiences of your customers, your shareholders, whether you're looking at the experiences of your employees, um, or your, uh, suppliers, or your community, or your nation, your country, you need to be [00:21:00] focused on the experiences that matter.

And it's to those experiences you're delivering value. Your ability to enhance, or elevate those differentiated experiences is what keeps people coming back to you. And the second you miss that, the second you focus more on the technology than the actual outcomes that you're delivering to these experiences, you've lost the ball game.

Mehmet: Right. I need to clarify just one thing, Wesley. So the reason, uh, a a, and I like to hear your thoughts on this, um, not related to, to digital transformation immediately, but related how other functions in the business looks to it. Right? Uh, yeah. Maybe again, you know, my personal experience probably affected somehow my points of view, even like this was.

Yes. 20 years [00:22:00] ago when I shifted to, to be in an IT department, what was hurting me and even I started to see it, even when I shifted it later. Uh, and you know, I wrote a lot of, you know, posts about it back in the days on LinkedIn. I discussed it with a lot of people, is that the department of technology, it call it whatever you want, is always seen like a function, which of course it's a cost center, right?

So, so it's like, it, it's like the place, oh, these guys who ask for these fancy toys that cost the company a lot. Second thing, I'm not sure, again, I'm, I'm biased, but I've seen people treated. Not, well, not in a sense that they were like bullied or something. No, but I mean, you know, the IT guy, you know, like this, go talk to the IT guy or call the it, you know, like these kind of things.

It's made in the, [00:23:00] in the mind of many people. And I spoke to a lot of folks, by the way, maybe they don't express it because sometime for different reasons, losing jobs, I don't know. Uh, they don't have the courage enough. But I had, so the whole thing is the technology department, IT department has always looked at, you know, these guys who ask for fancy things.

They are a cost for us. Um, they are here just to, to, to, you know, fix things where, when they are broken, right? 

Wesley: Yeah. 

Mehmet: Now you talked about, you know, the, the, the ITIL and the management frameworks and, and all this in European, why, why this happened Wesley, like while. In my opinion, this, especially after the age of digital transformation started it like this.

The IT department should have been, you know, the crown jewel for any organization. Because, you know, we started to see these articles coming out and saying, Hey, like every [00:24:00] next company now gonna be a software company. Starbucks, they don't brew coffee, Starbucks, they blah, blah, blah. And Airbnb, they are not a property company.

They have a software that do this, but okay, fine. Nice. I like it. But let's go and see how these guys are living their day-to-day life, how managers, executives in the IT department are living their lives. You know, I would love to hear your thoughts about this. 

Wesley: Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. Uh, I would say, you know, it's interesting, uh, so, um, one of the biggest misunderstandings in the world of business is that it is a call center.

Mehmet: Mm-hmm. 

Wesley: That's one of the biggest misunderstandings ever. And the reason why I say it's a misunderstanding is because, um, whenever I move to another company and I'm leading technology, I never criticized, uh, leaders that came [00:25:00] before me. You wanna, you wanna know why? Yeah. No matter how. Yeah. When, no matter how, what state the technology is in, I believe that the technology department as it's showing up ultimately is taking the shape of the business.

It in effect tech that the technology division or component of any company is an expression. Of the business's needs. Now sometimes that's articulated well, sometimes it's not articulated very well. So there are nuances in how well the needs of the business are expressed in that I, in, in that IT function.

The reason why I say it's a misnomer to think of it as a cost center is because, uh, literally in the law of cause and effect, the IT department only exists because the business exists and is [00:26:00] valuable. 

Mehmet: Mm-hmm. 

Wesley: Well, without the business, the IT department would have no purpose. And the cost that the IT department carries are the receipts and expression again of the needs of the business and the clients of the business, um, that are codified.

And so what happens is that oftentimes companies have technology leaders that are not very good storytellers. And so they're unable, they find a deficit in being able to connect the dots and say, because you needed to be able to deliver packages to your customers three times faster than your competitors.

That resulted in us having to invest in more infrastructure that resulted in our capital expenses being X and our opex being y. 

Mehmet: Mm-hmm. 

Wesley: You need to be able to do this simple [00:27:00] conversation, and there's another framework, and I I, I'm not trying to like bore your, your audience with a ton of frameworks, but my favorite framework.

For, um, understanding and managing these value conversations is one that's called TBM Technology Business Management. Mm-hmm. And your, your, your audience can find out more about it by going to tbm council.org. But, uh, it is a framework that codifies specifically everything coming from your general ledger all the way up to the services that you provide to your customers.

And it connects the dots in between. This is a storytelling that effective technology leaders need to be able to do. And, uh, the failure to do that leads to the misperception that it is just a call center because they have not really connected cause and [00:28:00] effect. You must make those connections. 

Mehmet: See, like, this is why I love to speak to people like yourself, Wesley, because you can guide other people, um, to, to, to frameworks that can help them.

Because I know, you know, one, one thing, especially, maybe this is for the new generation or like the new generation of, of executives, is to go try to understand, uh, the business and talk their language in a storytelling way, right? So, um, because I've seen it a lot, I, I was one of the people who did this mistake as well.

I wasn't an IT director. I, I didn't have, you know, when I was in the IT department, I was just a system admin just for the transparency. But I was sitting in these meetings, you know, and I was seeing people sometime and going to other people also after I became a consultant, all what they talk about. Um, you know, bits and kilobytes and, you know, um, like, [00:29:00] uh, amount of, of, uh, virtual machines we have in the, in the environment and number of, uh, I don't know, uh, applications that we have.

Then business will tell you, Hey, like, that means nothing to me. I don't understand what you're saying. So, so, so the framework, the best people I've seen, like you did. Now the best people I've seen they do it is, yeah, they mentioned the technical terms, but immediately after that they articulate this to a business outcome or like to a business need.

And without that, I think there will be a problem. Now, back to humanizing it and, and the start of the discussion now. 'cause I want to touch on the AI and I don't want to rush it later. Um. Now the big promise of ai. And of course, and again, I don't tend to, uh, it's not like my intention to ask a lot of loaded questions, but the topic is really by itself.

It's, it's so loaded [00:30:00] now, digital transformation. You mentioned about the cloud, you know, and how things evolve over time. Now we have the AI transformation, some people are calling it, and the big, let us not hide, you know, behind anything and say it openly. The biggest promise of AI is it can replace humans, right?

And AI is technology. So in this age of AI ly, how we can humanize ai, what's the way of doing this? 

Wesley: Yeah. What a fantastic question. Since, we'll, we'll start here, but there's so much to talk about all this topic. 

Mehmet: That's 

Wesley: okay. Um, yeah. So what does it mean to humanize ai? How do we humanize AI when we're holding?

Um, that, when we're acknowledging the power of AI [00:31:00] to

reduce the number of humans we need for any task? Mm-hmm. Or I, I would articulate it. I see it slightly differently. So I, I would say that, um, the promise of ai, um, you know, it is reducing effort. What it does is that it gives us, it, it, it gives us an opportunity to make decisions about. Where humans fit and where the machines fit.

Now those folks who are chasing profit at all costs will just wanna see a reduction in force. Let's shrink our workforces. Let's bringing as many AI agents in here. Let's leverage AI to the tilt. And [00:32:00] from a standpoint of maximizing shareholder shareholder value, of course we all understand that. Um hmm.

I'll start with humanizing ai, but there's so much to hear. So how we humanize AI is, uh, we have to keep humans at the center, right? We, we, I believe that technology that's not in service to humanity is vanity. Technology, not in service of humanity is vanity and often leads to calamity. So I, let's think about this for a second.

When the Model T came out, it was a miraculous invention. Suddenly we can move from horse and buggy. We could commute great distances faster, [00:33:00] but the seatbelt wasn't invented for many, many, many years later. So yes, we had this traumatic innovation, but we didn't have, um, is regulation and consideration about the human cost.

That accompanies this innovation. So with this innovation, we ended up, frankly, with lots of folks who lost their lives in motor, you know, in, in, in, uh, uh, car accidents and motor vehicle accidents that didn't have to die, right? But we had to, we, we ended up paying a very human cost as we leaned into this innovation, and I'm, you know, that story repeats itself over and over and over again.

Whenever we're very excited about a new innovation, we tend [00:34:00] to lose sight of the human cost and the human factors. We have the knowledge, the skills, and the ability to do things differently this time. It's a choice. We can choose that as we approach, uh, as we adopt ai, we do it in a human-centered way, which means that we're not only focused on how AI can transform the experience, which it can do, which is really core to humanizing ai, is understanding how you are reshaping these experiences in a way that serves humans the best.

Right? So that's a component, but another component of really humanizing AI under being human centered in your approach is keeping humans safe, is how do I deploy AI in a way that I can [00:35:00] trust what I'm seeing? It's not causing me to question reality. How can I tell what is true and what is false? Um, how can I deploy this technology in a way that is secure and, and, and it's not exploitative of humanity.

All of these things are incredibly important. Um, how do I leverage this technology to make better decisions that are inclusive of all of us and not just favoring some of us? When we think about how the LLMs, the large language models are trained, are they trained in a way on the knowledge and all the wisdom across our entire world?

Or are they heavily weighted and trained on data sets and information coming from the west? You know, these are things we actually need. If we're really [00:36:00] embracing and adopting this technology in the human centered way, we have to think about what's in the best interest of humanity of humans. One more thing I'll add to this.

It is not human centered to deploy AI without an eye looking forward to the, without considering the, the possible cost and impact on our environment. We're in a rush to build massive data centers to increase compute, but where are those data centers going to reside? What communities will they reside and will they be deployed and built in sustainable ways or will they have a, a, you know, uh, a devastating impact on our environment and just become the, the new big oil of our time?

So these are things when we say human centered, yes, we can talk specifically about here's an AI solution and how do I [00:37:00] design this in a way that elevates human experiences, the experiences of the end users, and all of that. That is key. That is very important. But really being human centered accounts for all those factors around prioritizing humans and human, what the, in the best interest of humans over machines and over, uh, other considerations.

Mehmet: Wesley, very important. And, you know, again, as a follow up thing about what you mentioned, I get you and I'm, I'm, I'm big, uh, defender also of, you know, uh, I like the technology, but also using it in the appropriate way and within the frameworks that for sure we don't hurt others. We have the inclusion and all this.

Now, I don't like this phrase, but playing the devil advocate. [00:38:00] Um, 

Wesley: sure. 

Mehmet: A leader might say, yeah, Wesley, I hear you. But look, all these big giants, they're doing it. They're, they're, they're, they're, they're, you know, coming up with new things every day. They're finding use cases that other organizations are adopting it.

And my biggest fear, if I don't implement it today and I just wait until I'm a hundred percent sure, I might miss the train and these guys will, you know, will take all the benefits or very, you know, a few things will be left for me as a company of course. So it's kind again, feeling of missing out effect that's happening out there Now on the other side.

One of the things which happened even before, and I've seen this, is like, you know, about this discussion between [00:39:00] regulations and speed of, uh, innovation. And someone might say, Hey, like, whenever we try to regulate something too much, like, you know, we're gonna stay behind. And you know, like there's a huge debate now about, for example, how Europe is way behind in this AI revolution because of all these tough regulations and tough standard that they have put.

And people are, are, I'm not sure, I don't have statistics, but I see a lot of things that are appear in my feed where entrepreneurs, even like some companies, they leave Europe, they go to the US or to other places in the world because they can innovate faster. So people might tell you, Wesley, I'm understanding you, but if I.

Need to do this very, you know, slowly people will, will, will, will get into the first place in the race and I will stay behind how you answer them. 

Wesley: I would say that [00:40:00] the component of the Ferrari that enables it to go at the most fantastic speeds, the most important component is the brake by far most important component.

Right? And I know it's, it's controversial to think about it that way, but it's, it's inseparable because without the ability to throttle your speed, you can't push as fast and as hard as you'd like to go. These things are, there's a, there's a natural tension there. That tension is necessary for innovation.

Innovation doesn't happen unrestrained. There's always constraints, right? There are always some constraints when you're looking at innovation. Um, you know, and, and so I think that the folks [00:41:00] who fear that, like regulation and, uh, safeguards and guardrails, slow them down. What they're making is they're articulating in the case for recklessness, not innovation.

You can go fast and you can go fast safely, right? You can go fast and you can go, you can go fast and you can go fast, unsafely. But what usually happens is when you go, um, when you, when you. Relieve yourself of those guardrails. There's usually incredible, uh, damage and harm that results that's not necessary.

Right? And again, the, the one other thing is that human-centered design ask us to ask the question. It doesn't necessarily provide the answer. [00:42:00] So when we think about this, this is a frame where I'm asking myself, is it ethical? Is it safe? Um, you know, does it have integrity? Is it true? You know, um, is it fair?

You know, you're asking questions. Um, why wouldn't we want to ask questions? Why wouldn't any innovator not want to be curious? Curiosity is, I think, one of the most valuable, uh, traits of the great innovators of our day. Whether we're talking about, like, again, the AFO mentioned Steve Jobs, or we're talking about any of the heroes we look up to, their curiosity is what led to innovation.

Curiosity welcomes questions, 

Mehmet: but let me tell you, Wesley, someone might tell you sometime they, these [00:43:00] people were reckless also as well, right?

Wesley: Yeah. I mean, there, there are moments at which, you know, um, they ignored, they, they, they, they, uh, pushed down concerns and doubts and, um, were a bit reckless at times. Uh, no doubt. Um. That, that, that is definitely a fact of life. That, that, that is true. 

Mehmet: Do you think any of, without, if you, you know, I, I usually, I don't, uh, finger point to any, uh, vendor or personality, but feel free to do so, and I don't let people, because we discussed some famous people here.

Do you think some, some of the major people in this AI thing are acting reckless currently?

Wesley: Yeah, that's a huge question. You know,

I'll, I'll put it this way. I find it hard to understand how I could be leading. Um, [00:44:00] I can be one of the leading, um, uh, uh, one of the leading voices in this movement. Pushing forth huge models. Like of course, you know, open AI is perhaps the most famous one, right? Um, yeah, I find it, I find it challenging that on one end we can hear from, uh, Sam Altman and hear from others, other leaders, uh, in his vertical speaking of harm that they, they believe will come with ai.

And at the same time, uh, no one seems to be asking them the hard questions about what they're doing to mitigate those adverse outcomes. It just seems to be a strange thing. I've, I, I can't really recall, like even with when, when you go back to, um, [00:45:00] ah. I, I just, I cannot, I can't even come up with a, a good example of another time in history where somebody was driving an innovation saying, this is gonna hurt a lot of people, but we've gotta do it.

Like it just, and, and, and it just doesn't seem to be, um, a serious push for accountability, um, and, uh, transparency. So that, that, that does concern me. 

Mehmet: So to, to, to kind of circle back and this is why now. And of course I did the whole journey on purpose. So, so, uh, my audience try to understand where I'm coming from.

I think, you know, the way you describe this and the loop that we did comes back to your point why we need to humanize a IT and ai of course, because, um.

I saw [00:46:00] some, uh, interviews, not only with some alman, with some other people by the way. Yeah. Now I have this kind of, uh, understanding. Maybe I'm mistaken. I'm not sure that, because you mentioned the T model. So the T model, the transformer model, which was the paper funny enough, by DeepMind part of Google.

Right. And it was sitting kind for quite some time. No one is doing anything. And here comes, you know, the team at OpenAI, they come up with something internally, they start to work on now, my understanding, and they listened to multiple, you know, famous figures in this space saying like, it was like a decision of Sam Altman to go and open it to the world.

Right? So, so there was kind of a agreement that, let's see, figure out how to make AI safer. How, how we control this. But he decide to go. And I, and I think, again, I'm, I'm not fan of anyone, guys. [00:47:00] I'm just trying to say also facts that I heard, and we need to double check some of them. And this is why also, like Elon Musk, he said, yeah, like this wasn't the agreement.

It was supposed to to be in another way. But here, what happened? And this is Wesley, you know, again, to the point I was asking you. So we saw, like for example, we can, we can argue about Elon Musk, good guy, bad guy. I'm not into this. I'm not judging people, but I mean, one of his points that he was mentioning, like, yeah, we need to make it open source so people can see what's happening.

But at the end of the day, he went and he started, you know, working on AI and X ai Ooh, like, like full speed Google. They were like kind of waiting what would happen. And here you go, like Gemini and all the advancements in Gemini, and of course other, and other, and other companies. And I think, you know, I'm trying to link to, to, to the whole thing you mentioned about humanizing, uh, AI and technology because, uh, I [00:48:00] think, you know, and one I, it's not kind of a philosophical, uh, podcast, but I ask these questions for people to think about it.

Wesley: Sure. 

Mehmet: And, and maybe I want, I won't, I want your opinion, Wesley, because it's a very nice discussion. So always we see whether it's some alman or others not to, not to just specify the guy, like, we need to do this, we need to do, like, we need to reach a GI like we are working on a GI, we are working on this.

Like we have to do this. And of course it's like kind of, it's someone behind us to, to achieve something. But, but, but actually in fact, like we could have continued our lives maybe enhancing its bit by bit similar to what we did before. Now. What I want to ask you, Wesley, what is in European? What, what really us as humans want to achieve from ai?

Do we want it to become an a, a [00:49:00] superpower and us go sit, lay down somewhere on the beach and do nothing? Or we wanted as, and I let one of my guests recently, two of my guests recently, they, they call it a not co-pilot. We don't want to use like other people's straight mark things. Sure. Coworker or colleague, like a, a, a virtual colleague.

How do you envision this in the enterprise and you know, maybe in, in, in, in in general. 

Wesley: Yeah. Hmm. 

Mehmet: What do we want? Like, I, I mean, what's 

Wesley: the ultimate thing? What do we want? What is the ultimate thing? So, um, since we're stepping into the, the philosophical side of it a little bit, I'll share. Some of my, my personal take on this, right?

Um, because it is interesting, um, this, this is perhaps the first technology where we actually have to sit with and, um, [00:50:00] articulate what does, what does it even mean to be human? 

Mehmet: Yeah. 

Wesley: What is the meaning of being human? What does it mean truly? Um, what does it, what is, what is consciousness? Like we say, we're conscious beings.

What does that mean? Uh, when we have the technology that effectively emulates, uh, our behaviors in, um, such human-like ways. Um, and then what is another huge philosophical questions. How do we redefine work and value? Right? 

Mehmet: Mm-hmm. 

Wesley: We are moving from an amendment where a, where work was defined by effort.

We literally used terms like sweat equity. The amount of effort I put into a thing denotes its value, [00:51:00] but this technology exponentially decreases the amount of effort we need to put into something to create something of value. So how do we even redefine or sit with what it means to work now as, as far as how we use it?

Um, yes. I think, um, AI as a, uh, a help as I think of AI as human augmentation, not human replacement. Human augmentation, right? So me plus this, I can do more, right? Versus me pl me, me being replaced by this. Um, that, that's, that's the aspiration. But when we think about the power of this technology, listen, one of the, one of the most important, uh, councils, uh, meetings about AI was recently held.

[00:52:00] Guess by what? Governing body, 

Mehmet: which? 

Wesley: The v The Vatican. Oh. The Vatican convened a council to reflect and review on the meaning of AI and how it will impact more, uh, uh, uh, uh, humanity. And I don't think that's wrong. I, this technology is pushing us to places where the we're we're grappling. Really huge philosophical questions as well.

Um, in fact, when I think about ai, and I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll wrap it, wrap up my perspective with this, it takes me back to like, um, the original prompt engineer. So in, in, in, in, in, in Western culture, you know, and, uh, you know, no matter what, like somebody's religious beliefs may be, we have the creation myth, the creation [00:53:00] story, right?

Where you literally had this being say, let there be light. And then there was like, literally, that was the first prompt engineer. And it wasn't artificial intelligence, it was ancient intelligence, right? And so here we are now, um, in with, with with, with the capabilities that mimic. Our own origin myths and stories, right?

And so with that kind of power, I believe comes a significant responsibility for us to do so in a human-centered way. And really at the end of the day, just like, you know, I have a keyboard in front of me, right? So this is how we do input into, uh, our digital devices here, little keyboards and such. Um, AI is shifting how we manage [00:54:00] with technology.

So now we're speaking, and I do believe that my daughter, um, when, you know, in, in, in 10, 15 years, she's gonna say, what's a keyboard? What's that like? She's gonna be moving into a world where keyboards as inputs and things of that nature. Mice as inputs are irrelevant. That you think something, you speak it, you articulate it well, and you, that's how you build these, these, these, these things are really going to become the new old relics that end up in museums of technology.

So I feel that that's gonna shift as well. 

Mehmet: Interesting. Um, and I like, you know, the ancient prompt engineering and this is right. Um, a as leaders in, in this space as, as technology leaders and all the shift that's [00:55:00] happening now, whether, you know, we can stop it, we can stop it. In your opinion, how we, how we prepare our teams, how do we prepare, you know, from skills perspective, like what are the new skill sets?

In your opinion that, that are required for us to survive, you know, this next wave of ai. And I'm not sure if, yeah, I, I still call it digital transformation because it's all happening in the digital world, right? 

Wesley: Yes. 

Mehmet: So, because you know, at some, in the previous phase it says, and you know, when you mentioned like before, like no one was thinking, let's say if smartphones will happen, that huge impact would have.

Of course we discovered later that people get hooked and, you know, they waste a lot of time. Uh, but, you know, it wasn't like it's something very major, like similar to what's happening now with ai. But from skills [00:56:00] perspective, Wesley, if, if, if a leader is now, or maybe someone interested is listening to us, what kind of skills they should be acquiring and preparing themselves to have in this new era.

Wesley: Yeah. From a skills perspective. Um, my answers may surprise your audience. 

Mehmet: Mm-hmm. 

Wesley: Like, you know, the obvious, the obvious things. And then, you know, I'll speak to the obvious first. Of course, everyone needs to truly understand how to work with this technology, so this is not a moment to opt out of learning how to work with ai.

You have to learn how to work with it. Um, I would encourage people to start really interrogating small language models, right? And, and, and, and, and, and doing experiments with every day. Ai. Um, folks should experiment with building, building new apps, and doing all of these [00:57:00] things. All of that said, I think the most critical skills now are really the skills we used to call soft, like leading with empathy.

You know? 

Mehmet: Mm-hmm. 

Wesley: Empathy as a skillset is not something that, uh, most people understand, but like when the experience layer is the only layer that truly matters, that's where the magic is happening, happen, happens. That's where value's being created. Empathy is what's going to differentiate the folks who win versus the folks who lose in that experience game, your ability to empathize.

Another thing that I think is really, really critical is the skill of storytelling. Again, people need to be able to, we're dealing with massive change and we're dealing with massive change. Your ability from an experience lens to be [00:58:00] able to empathize and tell stories where people can visualize themselves, will differentiate you as well.

Uh, but the thing that I would really encourage everybody to do is really lean in on their creativity. For that, you might have to go analog. You might have to step away from all your screens and take a walk in the park. You might have to compete in your next Ironman, do your next marathon. Get analog.

Walk away from these devices because that's where the greatest CPU ever get activated. It's in those analog moments that your own human intelligence fires up the most. And then you could bring that creativity back to the digital world and truly innovate.

Mehmet: Um, how I would describe this, [00:59:00] you know. I, I think this is, should we call it back to basics? You know, what you mentioned, Wesley, it's so obvious, but I'm sure like me included some 99% of the, of the people and 99% of the time, if not more, we forget about it. We forget that our brains actually are behind every single, um, invention that we get fascinated by and we think, oh, like look how smart at the machine.

Um, by the way, I, I would make a confession. I'm not sure if this is will get me trouble, but, uh, when I speak, especially to the younger generation, I tell them, guys, you know what, I don't call it artificial intelligence. And they ask me why. I say, how do you define intelligence? Right, right. Mm-hmm. Because for me, what needs to be an intelligent, right, [01:00:00] if intelligence is memorizing things, and you know, if when you ask someone, Hey, like tell me the capital of this country, and they on the spot tells you, uh, it's a skill, it's not intelligence.

I tell them terms, the ability to do like some kinds of really reasoning. And you do the reasoning by your own, not because someone told you to go and do this. Because when someone trigger you, now you become a machine. And this is why I call it, okay, I'm with calling it machine learning. I'm not with calling it ai, artificial intelligence, of course, but still the literature, the books, everything.

We call it ai. So I have to go with it. But if you ask me. It's not intelligence because it's, it doesn't have consciousness, right? It doesn't go and do things by itself. Now, this is why I was telling you, like they're saying, they're, they're trying to do, uh, you know, or come up with the technology that is conscious to work by itself.

Let's see. 

Wesley: Mm-hmm. 

Mehmet: But [01:01:00] for me, seeing is believing. So I will not take it until I really see it. I'm not saying it's impossible. Like, uh, if anything I learned in, in, in the past 40 since I came to this earth is that everything can be possible. I would not say it's impossible, but again, I don't call it intelligence.

To your point, Wesley, um, our brain is the intelligent brain and we need to nurture it with nature and go out, disconnect. And that's why I make sure at least, you know, I have time. When I don't check my notifications, I don't check my phone, I don't do anything. Although I'm living in Dubai, it's hot. I'm, I can't, you know, maybe in, in, in Fahrenheit that would be like 110 for you guys.

Yeah, high humidity. But still, I, I go very early before the sunrise. Just, I go for a walk because I don't want to see machines, although like I'm the tech guy, the [01:02:00] nerdy guy, you know, because I feel I need this. And I'm hoping that more people will, will feel the same anyway, Wesley, like, you know, we can go for hours and hours in this discussion.

That is very, very interesting. But if we want to do kind of a, you know, closing and in the theme of, again, humanizing technology, it, whatever we want to call it, and AI and leading with this, uh, you know, empathy, if I will ask you like for final, you know, words of advice. What you would share with us, maybe something I didn't ask or maybe something you wish, like you could, you know, talk a little bit about it.

So feel free to, to, to consider this as a free space now to, to, to, to talk about it. Uh, and then we'll do our closing. 

Wesley: Absolutely. Um, well, you know, uh, again, thanks for having me on the show. Maed, [01:03:00] uh, this, I've loved the conversation, uh, very insightful questions. I think you were right. We could speak for hours.

Um, it is really important, like this is the first time in, um, in our history where we're being pressed to our, the advance of technology is pressing us to ask very big questions about the future of work, about, uh, you know, how we define our own humanity. Um, about what it means to deliver value and, um, design gives us the tools and a practice and a framework to really help us grapple with all of this.

And so I would really, um, invite your listeners to come over, check out, um, hit Global. That's, uh, uh, hit Global [01:04:00] Services is our site. And, um, we have a humanizing ai cer, uh, training and certification that they can take so that they're actually putting more human-centered solutions out in the world. Um, and, uh, if they use the cold West 10 WES 10, they get 10% off of, uh, that, that certification.

But. You know, we have to educate ourselves. We have to educate ourselves. I would, uh, invite everyone to stay curious and to, I would love to be in conversation with them. So, uh, join me, connect to me on LinkedIn. Uh, it's very easy. It's Wesley Eugene. That's all you need to remember, the man with two first names, Wesley, Eugene, uh, and connect with me.

Mention the show. Uh, you can also book time with me on LinkedIn, uh, and, um, I'd love to be in conversation and explore, uh, [01:05:00] collaborations with your audience. 

Mehmet: Thank you very much, Wesley, for this. And, you know, um, first of all, all the links you mentioned, they will be available in the show notes. So if people are listening on their favorite podcasting app, they will find.

The links in the show notes, the website, your link it in profile so they can get in touch. And if of course they are watching this on YouTube, they'll find that in description. But what really, um, this discussion with you today, Wesley, and, you know, uh, every time I speak with, I would call that, you know, it, it's, it's like people think, you know, that technologists, you know, kind of are like, they, they are not humans, right?

And I want people, they think, yeah, you're the guy who's behind the screen all the time. And one of the reasons, you know, and, and you know, I'm happy that we, we, [01:06:00] we, we, we had this discussion today is to remind people, and this is why I love to do this podcast, that technology is not about, you know, what. S some people want you to see, you know, right.

Technology is humanity, right? And, and, and, mm-hmm. And can serve humanity. And the only way to serve humanity is to lead, you know, in a human way, similar to what you're doing, Wesley, because what you're doing is not just talking about it, you are educating, you know, uh, people about it. And I think education, to your point, is very, very important because this is a cornerstone.

How we can build on that and then make sure that everyone is on the same page. So we really can humanize technology and we can humanize ai. And I'm so glad that. You know, you, you shared your precious time with me today to share your thoughts, which are thought provoking. [01:07:00] Uh, I had, by the way, to shift a lot from the questions that I prepared.

I confessed this because, you know, and, and this is one of the main reasons also why I love to have the podcast in this discussion format, rather than just, you know, a pre-set up, I would call it. Because we bring best of us when we speak sponte spontaneously. And this is what me and Wesley we did today, by the way.

Of course, we, we had like some points in our minds, but this was a spontaneous discussion. And thank you very, very much, Wesley, for sharing your knowledge. I advised you guys to connect with Wesley and, and you know. Follow what, uh, you know, everything, uh, at, uh, he's doing at Hit Global. You would not regret it.

And this is how I end my, my show, my episodes. This for the folks who might just discovered this podcast. Now, thank you for passing by. If you liked what we presented to you, you like this discussion, I have a [01:08:00] small, you know, favor from you. Please go and subscribe and share it with your friends and colleagues.

Share it with as much people as you can because as you saw or listened, uh, we try to educate. We try to do impact with people who are leaders, people with experience like Wesley. And if you are one of the people who keeps coming again and again, thank you very much for the support. Thank you very much for.

Putting the CTO show in the top 200 podcast charts in multiple countries, all 2025, I would say almost. That can't happen without you guys. It's not me alone, it's 'cause of my guests, of course, including you, Wesley, and including my audience. So thank you very, very much. And as I say, always stay tuned. We are gonna have a new episode very soon.

Thank you. Bye-bye.