#534 The $5B Tax-Free Travel Tech Opportunity: Ameer Jumahboy on Digitizing Tourist Spending

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Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to a episode of the CT O Show With Mehmet today. I'm very pleased, very happy, very thrilled to have someone from Singapore. I think Amir, you are my first, uh, second to be, to be, uh, Frank. But it's been a long time. I felt like you are [00:01:00] the first guest, um, from Singapore. I get excited when I'm, when I talk to founders, when I talk to operators.

To builders if they are, especially in parts of the world, which I am big believer in, like, uh, Singapore is one of them. Dubai is one of them, of course, and a lot of parts of Europe. So. My, uh, audience know I don't like to steal the show from my guests, right? So this is why I'm gonna pass it to you, Amir, to introduce yourself.

Tell us more about you, your journey, what you're currently up to. Tell us the story of you two. I gotta give a hint to the audience. This is a sector we didn't touch much on, still on the show. So Amir gonna tell us about a lot of things. Again, I don't want to take much of the time. Amir, thank you again for being here with me today.

The floor is yours. 

Ameer: Thank you so much, ma. Well, you know, if you believe in Singapore, what I will say is you now have a friend here, uh, so I'm expecting you, you to come and visit and, uh, would [00:02:00] love to show you the, the, the town, the city, and, uh, take you for a nice meal. So please, please come anytime. Uh, hi to all listeners.

It's, it's such a pleasure to be here and, and I'm so pleased and thrilled to have been invited on the show. Um, I'm in the tourism space, uh, a very interesting space from a technology perspective. Um, and we specifically look at tax-free shopping. Now my father is my co-founder, which makes for a very interesting relationship.

Nice. Uh, my mother is never happy. My wife is never happy. 'cause work often follows us home, uh, fortunately or unfortunately. Um, but, but my father brings tremendous experience from his past life, um, and his past career. If I were to put what Utu does in a nutshell today, if you look at countries worldwide that have tax free shopping systems, so me as a tourist.

Coming in, um, you know, buying, say a handbag downtown, I'm eligible to claim the tax. In some countries it's called goods and services tax. In some countries it's [00:03:00] called VAT Value added tax. Tourists are eligible to claim this back at the airport before they depart from the country. Um, and the whole concept around tax free shopping was to make countries more attractive to tourists to come and shop in.

So if I were to say, what is you to do in a nutshell? Today, about 5 billion US dollars leave country borders every single year in VAT refunds and are taken home by tourists. So I go shop downtown, I get a VAT refund at the airport. In the case of Dubai, those durams are in my pocket and I'm taking it back home, uh, and spending it on my kids' kindergarten fees or, uh, you know, my petrol for my car, et cetera.

The question we asked ourselves is, why should that money ever leave the country? Why should it not be used? In the final retail opportunity that any tourist is likely to see, which is either the airport or if you're buying a bag downtown, why don't you use your VAT refund to buy the matching wallet? [00:04:00] So we recycle VAT refund value that was initially going to leave the country to generate extra sales within the local ecosystem.

And that's kinda what we do in a nutshell. Um, as I mentioned earlier, my father is my co-founder and, uh, he actually started his background in the duty free sector operating the perfumes concessions in Singapore Changi Airport, which is where we are based with a Singapore family. As, as you picked up earlier, meme, um, after he finished his stint, uh, in duty free.

He started in the world of tax free and built two of the major companies in the space. One is a company that some of your listeners might have experienced on your travels. It's a company called Global Blue, uh, and they're the market leader in tax free shopping services. Uh, he sold Global Blue and then bought a company called Premier Tax Free, uh, building that over a period of 26 months and selling it again.

Uh, premier Tax Free. You'll know today as planet, especially for those of you listeners, uh, living in the UAE, you might have recognized the planet kiosks [00:05:00] and, uh, operations at the airports like Abu Dhabi, the Ba, Sharjah, et cetera. Um, so I would say what I really do Mammoth is I bring my father's experience, and I guess I'm slightly younger than him, so I bring in sort of the energy, uh, and the, the vigor and verb, and I.

I deliver his vision for what we call the third paradigm of travel retail, which is connecting cityside shopping to airside shopping and creating a system where we ensure that value that was leaving the country is now spent within and enriching the local ecosystem. Um, and that, that's, that's sort of what we do.

Mehmet: That's great. And thank you Amir, again for being here with me today. Now. You, you kind of mentioned what you do, Amir, and you mentioned, you know, and of course we, we chatted before me and you, and you gave me the whole story right behind it. You're gonna give us, you give us, you know, what you do, right? But there was.

I'm sure a aha [00:06:00] moment, as they call it in the us or maybe a compelling event that you said, you know what? You and you, you, your dad, like, enough is enough. There's something really going wrong here. Yeah. We need to start. I'm curious about, you know, the early starts of this, how the concept. Form for you that yeah, we can actually build a company out of it.

Like, because you know what happens sometimes, I mean, and I want you to, you know, ignite my, my audience as well. Sometimes we see problems and you know, we kind of, we are not sure, yeah, maybe we can live with that. So there must be something that triggered you. Um, to say like, no, there is something out of this.

There is a business out of this. And of course it's, there's benefit for, for whoever gonna use the, the, the, the platform also. 

Ameer: Sure. I think, uh, Mamed, you've touched on a very strong point. I think there's two parts to this question. Uh, there was a personal trigger and a professional trigger. Uh, and maybe I can, um, address the [00:07:00] personal one first and, um, what happened was I finished my undergraduate in the United States.

And, um, I was offered a job in private banking. Uh, but at the time my father was diagnosed with cancer and I said to myself, you know, I want to come back home. Uh, it's really important to be with family. So I turned down that job, uh, came back to Singapore and uh, my dad said, okay, so I'm, while I'm getting treatment, you need a job, right?

So I was given a job opportunity at Google. Uh, which was an exciting opportunity. Um, but I decided that actually, you know, my father's somebody who has so much experience, uh, it would not be a good idea to not be able to learn from him. So I said to my dad, look, I wanna work with you. And I wanna, uh, learn from all your experience.

So I think that was a personal trigger, which made me say, okay, look, this is a, somebody who knows the travel space really well. Uh, I love travel on a personal level, but you know, my dad had, he's always brimming with these ideas, and I wanted to be able to [00:08:00] take some of these ideas. And distill them into a product that could create significant impact on people's lives as he did with tax-free shopping when it first came.

Right. So that was that was that on the professional side? I think my dad and I sat down and we said, look. You know, tax free shopping the industry has kind of topped out in terms of growth. Um, it's become a service that has, it's part of the tourist journey today. Uh, it's not something that needs to be taught.

It is very much like a money changing service or any other administrative service that you go through on the touristic journey. So we said, okay, what else is there that we can build on top of this, uh, that doesn't interfere with the tax free shopping system? But can actually deliver value, uh, to a whole number of people who are traveling.

And if you look at, you know, the worldwide market of travelers, you think about it, it's a pretty sizable chunk of people. You know, whether you're shopping in Dubai or Paris or Milan or Oslo, where have you, um, can we deliver even more [00:09:00] value to delight you on that touristic journey? Um, so we really sat down and racked our brains.

Over how we were gonna do it. Uh, we went on a bit of a journey. I would say YouTube today is in its fourth iteration. Uh, and I was telling somebody yesterday, I was telling a potential investor that we're kind of like a singer in a bar. You know, you sing your first song, nobody kind of listens. Second song, maybe a bit more interest.

Third song, ah, maybe you get 50, 60 more people. But on your fourth song. All of a sudden you're Lady Gaga. And I'm not saying it because, you know, I, I, I, I don't want that to come across it the wrong way or that I'm thinking about myself bigger than I am. But it's just that I feel that after, uh, four, four iterations of hardship, you know, navigating COVID, uh, product market fit, um, is very different.

Pre pandemic versus post pandemic. I think we finally found a product that has hit strong product, market fit. And what we do today, uh, in, in an example I'll tell you about in in Italy is we say, [00:10:00] look, perhaps you bought a handbag downtown and you are getting a hundred euros VAT refund. We work with the retailer at the airport who's a partner of ours and we say, look, we're gonna give you 120 euros instead, so we're gonna convert the hundred euro VAT refund that you are going to take back home to say goodbye.

And instead, I'm gonna give you 120 euros to spend in the duty free shop. Um, so for the tourists, they're saying, wow, this is a much better deal than taking cash. Now, of course, if we give somebody a voucher of 120 or credit for 120, we're always trying to then drive an UPS spend over and above that value with all the delightful things you can buy in duty free.

And we know that people buy very specific things in duty free, right? So you'd go to duty free for, um, you know, perfumes, cosmetics, confectionary, sense of place items. So really try to capture this amount in the duty free store. Um, and we found such a strong product market fit that our partner today is, [00:11:00] uh, gonna be working to scale us out to many more airports that they operate in.

Uh, we're looking at some things in your region, meme, um, around the Middle East, some implementations over there, which, um, I will tell you as the first person when we're publicly ready to announce it. Um, and, and we are looking at other products downtown as well, because don't forget. For us, it's not just about driving value at an airport, but it's also to say to downtown retailers, don't just sell the handbag, also sell the wallet by upsizing the tourist on the VAT refund that they're going to get at the airport.

So really building out that vision of connecting city to airport retail. Um, sorry, I think I gave a very long answer. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Came about this, but, um, but, but essentially fourth era of Utu today. 

Mehmet: No, no, no, no. I, I, I, again, Amir, you know, uh, I told you I like to, uh, listen to these stories because first what I discovered is I like stories, right?

Yeah. But it's not like just for the sake of stories. Because in each story, there's something that can [00:12:00] extract also. Like it's something that you can ignite. You know, people who listen to this now. Uh, help me here a little bit, uh, Amir, because, um, I, I'm not an expert in this domain Sure. But I can imagine in such business where we are talking tax, right, and you have multiplayers in, in, in this, and multi-stakeholders, if, if, if the name should be like more accurate.

Mm-hmm. So we have the shoppers. We have the participating, um, stores, right? Mm-hmm. And we have the government also as well, right? Mm-hmm. So to build something that can deal with all these stakeholders together, what kind First of, um, relationships. Of course, like customers, it's, it's, I'm not saying it's the easiest part, but it's the obvious part, but it comes to, you know.

Enrolling and onboarding governments and, [00:13:00] um, uh, you know, participating, uh, outlets. How that, you know, looks like in, in, in a business, like what you're currently doing with YouTube. 

Ameer: That's a, a really, really good question Mammoth, and, uh, I think you've identified the stakeholders really well. Uh, one more stakeholder, which I'd add to that list.

By the way, if you, if you ever want a job, I think you know our business well enough, but, um, uh, the other stakeholder is synergy partners, such as VAT refund operators and payment partners, which we can talk about too. But let's talk about the three big ones that you've spoken about, um, for the customer.

What we realized after doing some, some market research in many airports is, you know, when you get to an airport, you are in a tizzy, right? You're, oh, oh my gosh, I need to do, uh, customs check on my goods. I need to do tax free. I need to check in, I need to go through security. You're not in the mood to shop, right?

Right. So the moment of truth of when the customer starts to interact with our product is the moment they're done with security and they [00:14:00] step foot into the duty free store. Now they're saying, ah. Okay, I'm now in that, that head space where I'm ready to, to shop, right? So we engage the tourist on the airport business, at the very least on the airport business.

We engage the tourist when they step into the duty free shop. Um, if we look at the store, uh, we have a very simple pitch to the store, which is to say, this is a new stream of revenue that you were not capturing before. The tourist is claiming their VAT refund at the airport and that money they're putting in the pocket.

And they are walking through security, walking through your store, walking to the air aircraft, and that money is on in their pocket being taken back home. Let's find a way to work together to entice and incentivize the tourist to make sure that value is spent with you. So it's a pretty simple pitch and it resonates really, really well.

Uh, it's a new way of thinking about. Uh, what tax-free shopping could be and a potential evolution of the tax-free shopping industry beyond what [00:15:00] existing, um, uh, products there are. Uh, with the government side, again, uh, government is not a commercial partner in the same way that, um, the shop might be. But if you look at governments, which are very strong, um, in terms of looking at customer experience that want to delight the customer, that really focus on the end-to-end customer journey, such as the great work being done in the UAE where you are based.

Or say in a place like Turkey, uh, Singapore, et cetera, governments start to become a very important stakeholder because on one hand, yes, they will make more money through increased sales in the country. That's without a doubt. But I think people have moved away from a numbers game to saying that it's not just about numbers, it's about.

Being able to add value to the tourist journey, and we're looking for solutions and innovations to be able to do that. So tax-free shopping was that innovation in the nineties, but it's not seen much of an evolution [00:16:00] since then. So, you know, governments, ministries of tourism, um, start to become thought partners with us.

Um, we are talking to some touristic agencies, uh, in the Middle East and some of the Middle Eastern countries who are being very, very receptive to saying that, look. We want to go really, really big on creating the best possible customer experience better than our, our neighbors or, you know, other countries in the world.

Let's start looking for solutions outside and bring these innovations in, incubate them and allow them to participate in the tourism industry and, and help them to scale out. So governments, I would say, are an accelerator. Shops are our commercial driver and tourists are at the end of the day, all of us together are trying to delight that end customer.

Then there are what I call boosters and enhancers, right? So I can work independently with each of these agencies. I mean, I need the shop and I need the tourist government is an independent agency who's a good supporter, but then there's another booster, which is the VAT refund operators and [00:17:00] payment partners.

Right. And so, uh, next week we're gonna be announcing on LinkedIn a very strong payment relationship with one of the world's largest mobile wallets, uh, which you're gonna hear about, uh, soon. Um, and also that refund operators who we would love to work with and want to work with because we're saying, look, you do the refund.

Right. Let's delight the customer using then our platform and transfer that refund into a higher value spending credit. Right? And we're willing to give you something for it, right? You become a stakeholder of ours, you become a synergy partner, we'll give you something for it. Mm-hmm. So we see that that refund operators being a strong party on the L airport side.

But think about it on the downtown side, right? If I work with a fashion outlet. And they were going to sell the tourist, the handbag anyway, if my platform can give the tourists a reason and an incentive to recycle the refund value that was leaving the store into buying the matching [00:18:00] wallet that goes with the handbag.

I'm saying, Hey, Mr. Of that refund operator. You get two transactions now because the twist will still process their refund with you. Our platform has delighted them. The shop has sold two items instead of one, and the government is happy because money is recycled in the local economy. We're not looking at a disruption story.

We're saying, look, this is the pie and we just wanna make it bigger and bigger for everybody. It's a new paradigm of thinking about the tourist retail industry. 

Mehmet: I mean, that's fantastic. And out of curiosity, because you mentioned about the Gulf countries and, you know, uh, I, I would say especially, you know, I'm not sure if I, I would put your business in the right category in the travel tech, um, or in something else.

But you know, the reason I'm mentioning travel tech is in the recent years we started to see this. Uh, kind of tailwinds of [00:19:00] governments encouraging, first of all, especially I'm talking about the Gulf countries, and you were here like a couple of weeks ago. Um. So there is a push for more tourists to come, right?

Yeah. So whether it's in the UE and ui, they are like pioneers in this, uh, Dubai mainly. They've been doing this for now long, long, long time. Uh, and, and the rest, rest of Gulf countries are following the path, you know, in different ways and shapes. So Qatar trying to, to, to be like the sports tourism Saudi Arabia, trying also to do this cultural tourism and so on.

And the reason I'm mentioning this. At the same time, these governments also are pushing, especially in the UE and Saudi towards everything, digital, everything, you know, paperless. How much of that is a tailwind for, for your business model also as well? 

Ameer: Well, I like digital things because digital things means, uh, ease for the tourist and for stakeholders it means.[00:20:00] 

Uh, data that can be passed very easily through digital channels, right? So, uh, for me it's music to my ears. What I will say is, um, I, I want to lord the UAE, for example, for taking a leadership position in probably what is the most digital. Tax-free system worldwide. The question then is how do we build on digital products that sits on sit on top of that, such as products like ours, um, which can further enhance that tourist journey?

Um, I think, I think the GCC countries, especially with this digital push, the end consumer is gonna be the beneficiary of it because yes, they focus on different things, but in a way. In a very, perhaps not so overt way, it does create a little bit of competition, right? Because if you see your neighbor doing something a little bit more digitally, right?

With that marginal gain of digitization, you're gonna say, Hey, I want to take that next leap forward. And. I think if you look at the GCC as a region, the advancement that you have seen [00:21:00] regionally is something you have not seen in any other block, uh, worldwide. Um, so, so I think it takes a couple of things.

One is a strong belief in the future of technology. Two, I think you need strong leadership and governance, which I would say the GCC has with each of, uh, each of the member countries. And finally you need a population that, you know, believes in what they're being told and follows that, uh, train of thought and says, this is the vision and I want to execute it.

Right. And I think, for example, uh, vision 2030 in Saudi, uh, has really proven that the whole country has gotten behind the vision. And they're executing on it. And I've been going to Saudi, uh, I've been maybe six times in the last one year. Um, and every time I go back, you just see so much advancement at such a rapid pace.

It's exciting, right? With the UAE, we saw that, um, with the expo and how the whole country got behind [00:22:00] and really shifted the boundaries of what tourism could be, albeit in the most challenging time I think humanity has ever faced in the pandemic. Right. You look at Qatar and, and the statement that they made at the World Cup.

You know, we heard things like it was the safest World Cup, one of the most enjoyable World Cups, you know, the infrastructure development. Uh, and, and what they were able to show the world architecturally. Was second to not to none. So in a small way, competition has been really good for the GCC and I only see this region, uh, getting more and more exciting as the years go by.

And I hope that, you know, we can participate in that and help to advance some of these countries as well in this area that we've carved out for ourselves. 

Mehmet: I mean, how, I mean, what's, how do you, do you envision, um. A plan for onboarding more countries on this. Um. I know it's a no brainer because you know, when, when we, you first explained [00:23:00] to me also the fact that, uh, let's say I'm a tourist, right?

Mm-hmm. I go to Italy, right? Mm-hmm. And yeah, I'm happy that I don't have to go and stop by these, uh, machines in the airport to, to reclaim my VAT. I know, like I have them already in my. Uh, in my wallet, right. Uh, through, through your, uh, your solution. And then I can spend that right as as instead, and I can go and spend another way.

My point is when. We think about scaling and I know like it's, it's, it's, it's not something easy to do. Yeah. But building and, um, keeping, I would say the same user experience. And I know like you have this ui, ux experience also as well, uh, to cater different, you know, cultural needs, different maybe policies.

How do you envision, you know, your, your growth plan, you know, for, for Utu in in the future? 

Ameer: That's a really, really good question. Uh, the [00:24:00] one correction I'd make Mame is, uh, the tourist will still need to go through the tax-free process of that country. Mm. Um, because at the end of the day, if you think about it, uh, companies like Global Blue Planet, et cetera, are the VAT refund guys.

We are the VAT voucher guys, so 

Mehmet: Okay. 

Ameer: Two separate products, uh, playing in the same space. So we don't, we don't disrupt or get involved in their process because the tax free process is really an export mechanism process. So we don't get involved in that. That's a government run process defined by the country.

We kind of take over after and use the, um, value of the refund as a trigger. To generate a, a further spend. Uh, but you've asked a, a really good question. Um, if I were to look at it in the g CCC perspective, I think first and foremost our specialization is in the tax-free shopping ecosystem. Mm-hmm. So we would need a country to have a tax-free shopping.

Um. Regime or a protocol. [00:25:00] Um, so countries like the UAE, the UAE was the first in the region to start. Bahrain, uh, followed soon after. And Saudi launched, uh, their tax free shopping scheme earlier this year. So we are in a really good position because we have three very, very strong GCC member states where we can start to look at our.

Growth plans. Um, we're always open. You know, the moment Qatar, for example, wants to implement a, a tax free shopping scheme, you bet your bottom dollar that we're gonna be knocking on the door there because we think we can add tremendous value to that economy. So we have had, uh, when final stages of agreements, uh, for our technology within Saudi, which we're gonna, uh, tell you all about later this year.

Uh, with the UAE we actually have a running business. And when, when you ask about scaling, the UAE is a very, very unique market because being the first in the region for tax-free shopping, what was really interesting for us is we found a lot of, um, openness and willingness to [00:26:00] learn about new technologies and entrepreneurship in probably one of the most entrepreneurial commercial areas of tourist retail, which is in the gold.

So. So we said to ourselves, look, the beachhead market, because look, new technologies sometimes are a little bit scary, right? Not every technology is like chat GPT, where it's easy for people to onboard and understand. You know, sometimes things take a bit of time. So we said, look, if we were to look at scale, we wanna go to firstly where transaction values are high.

Where there's a tremendous amount of tax-free shopping being done, and if my memory serves me correctly, over one third of all VAT refunds done in the UAE come out of the gold soup. Mm-hmm. So we actually have a running business in the gold soup today, where one of our partners, fungals, for example, fungals Today, is enjoying a system where if they're about to sell the necklace.

They use the [00:27:00] VAT refund value that the tourist is going to get before they leave the UAE. They use that value to trigger a higher value credit to maybe push a pair of earrings that matches the necklace, right? Um, what TALs is also able to do is that, let's say somebody has a VAT refund form earned elsewhere, a credit that has been generated by another store.

ALS are saying, bring me that credit and I'll be happy to upsize that into a, a credit to spend with us. So they're getting on one hand a fresh sale from a tourist who may not have come to als. And for tourists who are already in als, they're able to sell more items and we're seeing, uh, a huge amount of interest in the gold.

So, so that's sort of our beachhead market. What I always believe is that. You know, an entrepreneur such as myself or my UAE country manager, we need to be doing the hard yards to prove the data works, to prove the model works in the country. And now we know that the model's working really well [00:28:00] with just one merchant.

Uh, we're gonna be hopefully breaking our first profit, uh, in the UAE by the end of this month. And that's a data point for me to then go to the right people in the tourism ministry and say, look, we've proved it. Here's the data. Here's what we are able to drive in incremental sales. Why don't we start looking at this as something to truly delight?

Every tourist who comes in would love to have more introductions to more retailers right here in the UAE. And the same for Saudi. And the same for when we go to Bahrain. 

Mehmet: Right. Uh, you know, I like your approach of, of, you know, mastering, you know, one market, which is, I would believe the, as you mentioned, it's like the most interesting, diverse, um, and one of the oldest market.

Uh, because UE was, if I'm not mistaken, I think I'm not the first one, uh, country to, I mean in the GCC, to introduce the VAT. The rest, uh, followed and they're always like looking for ways to. To enhance things. I was listening on the radio and I remember that I had the episode with you [00:29:00] today, so two days ago maybe.

Um, I was driving to Abu Dhabi and they were mentioning also like they are trying also to simplify the process. I mean, um, you know, for the kiosk, uh, I think it was already announced before, but even the online purchases also as well, like if you, let's say you come to the UE and you buy something from the local Amazon or I don't know.

Things like that. So, so they're trying also to include this, uh, somehow. So this is, there is always a push for, for the better over there now. Something, which in, in, in what you do, Amir, and for some people it might look as a very traditional business. Right? It's the retail at the end of the day. Right. So, so, mm-hmm.

So we're talking about the retail business. What you did already with the concept of these vouchers is, is, you know, really smart, I would say. And it's a no brainer for everyone. How much, [00:30:00] you know, innovation, you can still think of, especially, you know, everyone now would ask this question, oh, what are you doing with AI here?

Right? Or like, uh, what, like how you might leverage, you know, some cutting edge technologies in, in a retail business, which like looked classical or traditional. What's your answer to this, Amir? Julie? 

Ameer: That's a great question. Um, so what I will say is we look at AI as a tool. I don't pitch myself as an AI company because I don't think that's right.

Uh, but we do use AI as a tool. Um, so for example, in the case of Italy, um, the way our, our system works is very simple. You simply take a picture of your tax free form mm-hmm. Using a web app, and we use AI to understand that form and extract the VAT refund amount from the form. Nice. Right? So that's AI at work.

Now, if you expand that beyond just looking at variables on a tax free form, the question is what other kinds of data that can we understand [00:31:00] from that form, right? Mm-hmm. And how can I then work with my partners to optimize putting the right products in front of the right people? So for example, if you are going into a duty free store.

Right. US Meowth have shopped in Italy and perhaps you bought yourself a backpack from a luxury retailer, right? You've used our downtown voucher to maybe buy a wallet or, or the in-store credit to buy the wallet, and then maybe you've bought a key chain from this luxury retailer. Uh, and you know, by the time you come to the airport, I should know that this person, of course, we follow all GDPR and PDP compliance.

I should know that this person maybe is slightly more affluent. This is probably the categories that he would like to look at in this store. This is how much he's likely to spend, so can I put the right items in front of you and get higher yield from the customer? Mm-hmm. So, you know, I was speaking with a duty free operator and.[00:32:00] 

They said to me, Amir, you know, are the Chinese tourists gonna come back? Because everything pre pandemic was focused around the Chinese customers who are very special guests, of course, in the travel retail ecosystem, as are many of our guests from the GCC. Um, and I said, you know, the world is constantly changing, right?

They may not come back in the same numbers as you had before the pandemic, right? Naturally right, with the rise of India, et cetera. So then the question is, if they're not coming back in those numbers, how can you provide them? Firstly, a delightful experience, always coming back to the delightful experience, but then as the retailer, using data to improve your yield per customer to achieve the same result as pre pandemic or surpass it.

So the way I look at AI in our, um, in our industry is really as a tool to help us better understand data. Connecting that from city side, building that bridge [00:33:00] to side, always going back to that concept because that's, that's the vision we're trying to, to bring to life. Um, and then being able to provide that data to our partners, to stakeholders such as government, to better understand, uh, how they can use that data to curate the tourist experience in that country.

So that's really how I see ai, uh, in our space. You know, the thing is, it, it's tough because we're in travel, we're in retail. It's still a very physical experience. You know, as much as I love VR and looking at, uh, virtual reality products that come out, nothing beats standing in, you know, um, the grand market in Istanbul smelling the spices, hearing the sounds around you, you can't recreate that digitally.

No. You know, so then the question is how do you take what is such a physical, experiential concept? And sprinkle a little bit of technology on it to enhance it. That's the way I look at it. 

Mehmet: Uh, fantastic. And, you know, [00:34:00] um, you just brought like, something to my mind is like. I believe, you know, and because of travel, this is possible.

And, uh, you know, I'm not sure if they would, someone would be listening, but, uh, I would say I'm, I'm sending greetings to everyone who works, you know, in, in duty free mainly. And the organizations behind duty free, sometimes they are government led, uh, organizations like here in Dubai, for example. And the reason is they are like one of the spaces that let us remember what retail and, you know, the experience of retail is at its best.

Uh, so people who visited Dubai. Uh, would know, like, uh, I, I've been always, you know, fascinated by the Dubai Duty Free. I, I'm not, I'm not associated guys, just, I, I, I live in the UE for the past 20 years. I traveled to a lot of countries, but it's really one of these delightful experiences because. You feel yourself, because you mentioned the spices and the grand are Istanbul, [00:35:00] and the other one is Istanbul Airport also as well, like, uh, the, the, the duty free there.

So like these two places. And I'm biased, yes, because I'm half Turkish and I lose that in the UE where really you feel this, I mean this, uh, retail experience and, and you know, Amir, to your point, I'm, I'm not. Uh, upset. Actually, I would be upset if we tried to digitize it in a way that doesn't make sense just for the sake.

We say like, yeah, we are, we are bringing technology. I don't want to look at the spices in a VR set. I don't want to to touch, you know, the, the, the closest and, you know, and even, you know, the electronics devices, you know, there's. It's, it's kind maybe an old guy here, nostalgia of going and, you know, touching the phone with your hands, checking the things.

It's a different experience. I'm, I'm sure maybe, you know, people with, with time will figure out, like, travel is one of the thing that keep us, you know, like this connection to the physical world, which we should not lose it at all. Um. [00:36:00] Another thing I want to ask you, Amir, and um, it's both business related and maybe also like, uh, general entrepreneurship question.

You are a first mover in, in this industry, right? So, um. And of course you, you brought your dad's experience, your experience, you put it together to build the concept. Uh, and in the startup world, always, we, I, I always hear this like, okay, how we can stay first? Because at the end of the day, we know like some other company, one day they're gonna come up.

And become, try to do what you do. Right? So what, how do you, do you see the competition in general, right? And, and of course like one day you might have competitors also as well. Um. Because people, sometime they come to me and say, Hey, like, uh, you know, if my biggest [00:37:00] fear is once I start this business, a lot of people will copy me.

So how, how do you, how do you fight this? Thought, I would say, 

Ameer: look, I think competition is inevitable. And as I said earlier, competition is not necessarily the BA bad thing. You know, I'm, I'm a sportsman and, and, uh, you know, I've played sport my whole life. And competition pushes you to improve yourself. So I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing.

I think the question is how do you respond to it. Mm-hmm. And do you have the tenacity and psychology? To, to look competition head in the face and say, look, I'm gonna take you on and I'm gonna create a better version of myself. So for us, we are always looking around the industry to understand what are people doing?

Uh, is anybody looking in this space? You know, over the past few years, uh, when we were sort of in the second and third iteration of, of YouTube before we ended up with the current products we have, um, you know, I met small companies that were looking to disrupt the [00:38:00] tax-free shopping space. Uh, just for coffee, whether it was in Amsterdam or whether it was in London.

Small companies that were taking on the establishment. And, and it's, it's good to have these discussions because you start to understand where people's minds are going. Where are they thinking? Now, if somebody came and said, look, I'm starting a competitor to Utu, uh, I'm gonna go and take on Utu head on and start to create a similar kind of product, uh, that's fine.

It's not a bad thing, but I would push my team to firstly think bigger. Uh, I would encourage everybody to be an intrapreneur. It's a term my wife actually taught me when she was doing her master's degree to work in a company, but be entrepreneurial in from the inside. Yes. And come up with ideas from the, from, from within.

Because you have a good framework around you. You have a knowledge base, say, from my dad. Right. You have perhaps a more commercial operational person like myself, so you have a framework and an audience that is ready to receive [00:39:00] ideas because we ourselves are entrepreneurs, so that's really important.

Mehmet: That, that's, you know, fantastic point of, uh, view, I would say to, to think about the whole, you know, startup, entrepreneurship, uh, concept. And, you know, maybe I told you this, Tamir, when we, we first spoke, uh, before, uh, this episode, I mean, couple of weeks ago, like people ask me like, do you consider yourself really an entrepreneur?

I said like, look, I don't hide reality. I didn't, you know, uh, establish or started maybe a company in the sense of a startup company, but I'm, I'm a status quo, bacher, you know, like I, whenever I see something, I question it. I try to see how we can change things. So yeah, I consider myself an entrepreneur.

Lucky enough. This podcast became, you know, my entrepreneurship space if you want, where I'm, I'm talking to brilliant minds like you also, Amir. And, uh, and I can see the passion, uh, [00:40:00] for this. Like, you, you love what you do. I can see it, you know, even you are in Singapore, I'm now in Dubai. Um, just as we are close to, to the end, uh, of this discussion with you, Amir.

Um. Final thoughts from your side? Uh, where do you want to take, uh, YouTube and where people can find out more? Sure. 

Ameer: Um, so look, where, where do I wanna take two For me, I want to be in every city worldwide that has a tax-free shopping scheme. I want to be able to add value to retailers downtown. I want to help you to increase your sales.

If you are at the airport, I want to capture all this value that was leaving your airport and, you know, drive significant revenue for you. I wanna work with governments to improve the touristic journey and what people can, can experience on their shopping trips. But ultimately, for me, the proof is really that delightful experience I can give to the tourist.

And it takes all these stakeholders, VA, refund operators, payment operators, [00:41:00] us governments, shops. We need to all bring it together. We each have a part to play, but it's always about taking the tourism industry forward. Um, today we are operational in Italy. As I said, we have a great business in the gold silk, and I love going there because you know, for me, the gold silk is a collection of entrepreneurs who have moved to the UAE, right?

Made a life for themselves. So I love going and still doing sales pitches. There. You'll find me there a couple of, well, not a couple, maybe like three, four times a year. Um, and, and soon you're gonna be seeing us in about eight more countries over the next, uh, nine months, uh, where we're gonna be launching.

And I'm really, really excited for that. So, you know, it's been eight years, uh, Maad. We're not a young sort of startup, uh, but we've gone through, we've gone through the ringer, we've gone through the pandemic. You can't see it on the video now, but I have a lot more gray hair than I did a few years ago. Um, it's been a really, really hard road, but you're absolutely right.

I still wake up every single day. Believing in what I'm doing [00:42:00] because I can see now light, I can see the fact that we have a huge blue ocean opportunity. It's about staying humble, grounded, and open to receiving criticism, but also open to seeing what innovations are out there and bringing our products to the, the whole world of tax, tax-free, uh, shopping duty-free retail worldwide, wherever tourists are shopping.

Mehmet: And 

Ameer: the 

Mehmet: website is two. Dog. 

Ameer: Global. 

Mehmet: Global. Yeah. Yeah. I gonna make sure that I will put this. So for the, uh, listeners, go and check it because it's really game changing. Like when Amir explained me the first time, the concept, I was like, mind blown because I said, how come no one else thought about it? But you are a brilliant guy, Amir.

Uh, of course with your father and, you know, two generations together, they can create. You know, the, the impossible I would say when it comes to business opportunities. Uh, I would like to thank you so much for, you know, this great discussion today, and thank you for being part, for being part of, of this, uh, [00:43:00] podcast journey also as well.

And this is how I'll end my episodes as usual. This is for the audience. If you just discovered us. Thank you for passing by. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, so, give me a small favor, subscribe, share to your friends and colleagues, and if you are one of the people who keeps coming again and again, thank you for the support, for the laity, for, uh, you know, pushing me, uh, to, to keep doing this.

I really appreciate it and thank you for the support also last month on the book lunch also as well, from nowhere to next available on Amazon. And I couldn't do this without you. And again, as I say, always stay tuned for a new episode very soon. Thank you. Bye bye.