#530 Radical Clarity: Pete Steege on How Accidental CEOs Simplify to Grow

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Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to any episode of the CTO show With Mehmet today. I'm very pleased joining me from the US someone who have a special expertise, which I was looking for for a long time. I want to welcome with me today, Pete Steege. [00:01:00] He is, I would call you an advisor, Pete. I would call you an author like you have multiple hats you wear.

But you know what, I can tell the audience that your background is really fascinating and your work really, you know, resonates with. As we were discussing before we hit the record button with what I'm trying to do in this, uh, podcast, which is about helping founders becoming better CEOs. But I don't like to steal the lights from you, Pete.

The way I love to do it always is I keep it to my guests to introduce themselves. Tell us a little more about you, your journey, what you're currently up to, and then of course we can start the discussion from there. So the floor is yours. 

Pete: Thanks, Mehmet. It's great to be here. And you know, you, you hit it on the head.

I, I'm really focused on CEOs and in specific, uh, I call 'em accidental CEOs. Those are the technical experts, the domain experts that, uh. Are so passionate about what they do, and they're so good at it that they wake up one day and realize [00:02:00] they've actually gotten into a position of running a company because of their, their, their smarts really.

And there's a lot of things to figure out for people like that, uh, to be a successful CEO. So I, I focus on helping those accidental CEOs grow their business. My background is I'm actually an accidental CEO myself. I'm, uh, an electrical engineer by training and had a long career in technology industries and, and, um, companies, uh, helping them grow at different levels and different times.

So I'm just love, um, learning about these accidental CEOs and, um, figuring out how to help 'em grow their business. 

Mehmet: Fantastic. And you know, uh, I, I'm having this feeling that we're gonna have a great discussion because as I was telling you, I think this is, uh, something. Commonly happening with people, especially in, in, in [00:03:00] this time where it's not like as hard as it was before to start a company and becoming a CEO.

But of course now we're gonna dig more into this, but. One thing which attracted, you know, uh, my attention about, you know, what you have under your name here, B2B Clarity. So what I understand, Pete, is that you work with B2B CEOs, right? And you help them to have the clarity. Is that right? 

Pete: That's right.

That's exactly right. And I, and that, uh, prompted me to write the book Radical Clarity too, which is just that it's, I found that the big, and we'll probably get into this moment, but the, the biggest, um. Change that these CEOs need to make to be successful is not to do more things, but to actually do less things.

Mehmet: Cool. Maybe a traditional question. A dejavu probably for you, you might be, have been asked multiple times. What was the main inspiration behind the book? You know? And as now I became also an author, like I, you know, I know what pushed me [00:04:00] to do that. So what was like the main motivation for you to write the book, Pete?

Pete: Well, I've been at, in my business for five years now, and in those five years, you know, I've met a lot of CEOs and worked with a lot of CEOs and I started to see some real, uh, common trends in the, the breakthroughs that would, would help them, uh, really, um. Move into the, the next level of growth for the, for themselves and for their business and what that had in common.

Almost always, it started with what I call their true story, and that's that, that really simple, intuitive, sometimes it's two or three words that describes why they're here, right? Why their business exists and the value they provide. Who are they provided to that true story? We, we don't create it. We uncover it.

Right? So I was, I learned that the issue that [00:05:00] that was there was this, this, um. This complexity in our lives is actually, um, the biggest problem that businesses have that CEOs have, that are technical experts is they're trying to figure it all out. Where what's really important is this simple meaning this, that that can be shared with their team, that can be shared with their prospects, and.

That meaning, especially for a, a technical person, meaning isn't the first thing they go to when it comes to how, what they're thinking about with a successful business. But I've found that that meaning and that clarity around it is, is the power that it, that sits behind success in, in almost every aspect.

We can talk about different functions of their business product. Sure. Marketing, sales, operations. This, this core shared meaning, is the juice that that pushes it all forward? [00:06:00] 

Mehmet: Is it like what I, I also mentor some to be entrepreneurs. And the first question, and it's not, it's not me. I invented this like. Uh, it's something I learned from multiple known figures, of course.

Is this the why we ask the founders why they started the, why they want to be founders in the first place? Is this the clarity we are talking about? Is it the, you know, the end goal, the vision? Like how, how we define it? Pete, 

Pete: that's a, that's a really important part of it. The why for sure. And if your listeners have not read Simon Sinek's book, um, uh, start With Why.

Yes. That, that's, that's really a valuable insight. Right? But it's more than that. It's, it's a combination of the why I. I think of it almost like magnets, attracting the one pole of the magnet is the why, the, the purpose that I [00:07:00] have, like, I can do, I want to do this thing, right? Mm-hmm. I, or I can do this thing and I see the value of it for my clients, for the industry, for, for my family, whatever, right?

But then the other pole of the magnet is the receiving end, the, the who I'm doing it for. And that who is so important because without clarity about exactly who this thing I do is for, it can get watered down or canceled out. So often when I work with CEOs, they have a mission. They know this thing that they're so good at.

And often they wanna talk about how, what it is and what it does, but they're vague about who Exactly. It helps, and by, by working on being really, really clear about that, I call it a, a bullseye market, not a [00:08:00] target market. It's so, so specific that opens up the power of that purpose and that meaning about that, that why that you do so.

Back to your question, why absolutely, but who is just as important? 

Mehmet: And if I'm not mistaken, so I'm trying to uncover things. Of course people can go to the book, but I'm trying to get my best in the time that we have today, Pete. Is this the empathy that they have to also have towards their customers so they can have better results?

It's not like about the cool idea. Yes. Which they are passionate about maybe. But does it have to do with the empathy 

Pete: here? Yes. A absolutely. I love that word. Um, I talk about generosity. That, that a spirit of generosity for, for you as a founder, um, is part of this, this, um, mindset that you need that helps that you bring this thing you have inside of you, [00:09:00] outside of you to your team and to, to the market.

So if you're, if you're not. If you're not authentically caring about these, this person or this group that you're doing it for, then that, that lack of empathy gets your, your team is modeling you, right? Mm-hmm. Your team is, is looking to you to see how consciously and unconsciously to see how. This company works and how we do things and what we, how we decide things.

And one of those things is this, this, this empathy, this caring, this generosity. And when you, as the founder are all about the, the customer and not, not meen in a mercenary way, right? You're not just doing it because that gets me to the money or that gets me sales, but you really do care about that. That target, that person or company.[00:10:00] 

Mm-hmm. It translates that way. What I tell CEOs when we have this conversation is, yeah, you, you wanna make money, you know, you this, you want this to be profitable, it needs to be profitable for it to go on, right? So that's totally understandable. But at the end of the day, when you created this company, it's the value that creates the profit, right?

It's the fact that you're actually helping them. That happens first. The, the help, the assistance, the giving is the source of, of the success, the, the financial success. 

Mehmet: Yeah, you exactly, you know, took the words that I held on because, you know, I knew the, the flow would, would bring us here. Uh, there's a famous video, uh, an old one, of course, of Steve Jobs and, you know, he was mentioning.

People comes to me and asking me like how we can start a company and he ask them why you want to [00:11:00] start the company? And then he says like, uh, they thought, they tell him like it's to make money. And he said, no, be better. You go and do something else. It's, it's not, it's, it's not like this journey. And even like now people, when I ask them.

Why you want to start this? They tell, oh yeah, we want to become rich. Like, uh, yeah, we are passionate about it, but also, and I say, you know, getting the money, which is nothing wrong with that is the result of what you do, but it's not the purpose of what you do. So this is, makes a lot of sense, uh, with, with what you're saying, Pete, now.

You call it radical clarity, right? So, and this is the book name also, um, why it is radical. This is first and how I can have clarity, especially if I am maybe a solo founder. Coming from technology background, and now I have to learn a bunch of things, which you mentioned like just minutes ago, sales, marketing, uh, public relations, you [00:12:00] just name it like there's a bunch of things.

So how I can still have this clarity, which is, you call it radical clarity. 

Pete: What makes it radical is that it's, it's the opposite of what our society and what our, our business conventions. Are, are asking for from us. Look at our, look. First, let's just look at all of our lives, whether you're a CEO or not.

There is so much noise, there's so much, um, things asking for our attention and it's so easy for us to let them in, right? Social media is, is a simp the obvious example, but it's true in all of our lives that. We're so overscheduled and there's, there's always more things that we could be doing or watching or seeing than we have time for.

Right? True. Now you're a CEO and that's, you know, take that and now it's your job [00:13:00] to be informed. And on top of all these things, learn, you have to do all these things. Right. The convention says. Well turn up the volume, get, get going. You gotta, you gotta pick all this up. What's lost in that is that I believe back to meaning.

I believe that the true power and opportunity for you with your business, for you, with your team and leading your team is, is this meaning, which means which, which is, um, the real stuff. The real stuff, right? And the more things you have, uh, on your team's priority list, the more markets you're targeting, the more products and product models and product features you have, the more words on your website, the more, the more, the more you're dividing their minds, your teams and your customers, their minds time, their, [00:14:00] they're, you're crowding out the what's really important, the truth of it.

So that's where I, I'm just a big believer that less is more in almost every aspect of being a CEO and that you need to choose what is most important, and you and your team do that first. And there's always a way to offload or delegate or outsource the rest. So it starts with deciding what's important back to the true story, right?

That's where we start. Get clear on that. That's the radical part, is set aside all the, all the stuff that everybody says you have to do. And first, find your your core. And then here's the, here's the other radical part of this as a CEO, your number one job after that. Every day you are the steward of that [00:15:00] true story.

You, you are the guardian of it. You are the one that needs to bring it up every day and in all the meetings about why we're here and what's important and what, what does that look like going forward? Right. Test everything against that and that the other thing I'll say mm-hmm. Is one of the biggest, uh.

Symptoms of doing this well is you end up saying no a lot, right? You, you, you say no to a lot of things for you personally, for your, your business priorities, even for your clients, right? You don't, you don't put everything out there in front of 'em. You give them what they really need from you. 

Mehmet: Um. Because you work with a lot of CEOs, Pete, especially for the ones who comes from technology background.

I'm an engineer, uh, by education like you. And I know for a fact that uh, [00:16:00] maybe when I was younger, you know. I was used to think the opposite way. So not as a CEO, like in general. When I shifted to the business side and as is as a CEO, whatever your background is, you are, you are a business guy now. You're not only the technical guy.

So the thing that. I was noticing on myself, and I start to notice that it's not only me, a lot of, you know, I can say the majority. I don't like to, uh, generalize things. Um, coming from technology background, being an engineer, you want to put as much details as possible. You want to put as much features as possible.

You want to exactly the opposite of what you are, but now. How we can slow, how we can train ourselves to slow down. Like it's, it looks at some stage, I thought it's an instinct in me. It's like a reflex that whenever someone asks me for something, yeah, I have to jump and I have to do it. How do we start controlling ourselves as a CEOs to make [00:17:00] sure that.

Okay, we should take it. Say no. Is there anything you advise them to follow to have this built as a habit? I would say 

Pete: that's a, it's a great question, Miette, and I believe the answer is don't try to do it in the vacuum. Don't, don't try to say, oh, I'm gonna stop doing these things just just because I should.

It goes back to why we always start with finding their true story first. Mm-hmm. Because if you have that in hand, if you know, if you can steep yourself in your purpose and your meaning, it's not just your job to help your team stay on on that on track, it helps you stay on track to say, okay, rather than say, oh, I'm gonna stop doing that, or I'm gonna stop doing that.

First say, okay, what am I going to do? What, what do I need to do [00:18:00] for this primary mission? We are on? What's the top two or three things for your business? For example, what are the top two or three things we need to do to help us move forward right now? If you, if you do that first, then think about what else you could do.

It's easier because you're not. You don't have time for the other things, right? 'cause you're focused on the important things. So that's what I advise is don't try to empty out everything without something in its place. Start with a thing that belongs first, which is, is that that core purpose for your business?

I also have some frameworks that I, that are helpful for this with my mm-hmm. Clients that help them go audit their business. Really to find out. What's in the way of that? Them getting, taking their special purpose and getting it into the hearts and minds of their target [00:19:00] market. So we, we look at those two ends of the poll, two, two poles of the magnet, and we, we understand.

What's their process of discovering us, you know, getting to know us, deciding to choose us, working with us, et cetera, that lifetime of with us, how does that happen? You know? 'cause we have an idea about that. We're experts at what we do. So we think through how is that gonna happen, step by step by step in our market specifics.

And then we go back through, we document all that, then we go back through and say, okay, what's it like today? It's, it's uncomfortable. It's sobering, right? Yeah. But you see, oh, something. So yeah, it's about that. We could be better, but that's happening that way. But there are other steps where. Oh yeah, that doesn't work at all.

Like we want it to, uh, you know, clients are, when they, um, hear about us, they, they click on the contact us button and they get some [00:20:00] cheesy form, you know, and it's, it's like, oh, that's not the experience we really know they need. Or there are cases where they're totally blocked from moving forward. And so doing that.

What we, what it should be versus what it is today that surfaces these two or three priorities for the business that right now we need to fix to allow our clients to get to the goodness that we offer them. 

Mehmet: Great. Now, one thing that also came to my mind regarding the clarity also as well, and again, this is from personal experience, interacting with couple of founders.

So one thing I hear from them always saying like, you know. I'm feeling, uh, a little bit lost. I'm feeling stress stressed. I ask why. They said like, I have a lot of things on my plate. Uh, many things going on in the company, uh, I have to deliver. So performance, uh, and of [00:21:00] course we know why. So, so two things here.

So first, you know, uh, they're trying to build. You know, the company they're dreaming to build, but then they come and say, Hey, like we're feeling lost with, which is the opposite of clarity, of course, because we have pressure delivering on time to clients. We have pressure, maybe if they took some investment from the investors.

Right. Um, sometimes it might be, uh, market conditions. Mm-hmm. So how founders and, you know, CEOs, they can keep. You know, themselves on track to not lose this, uh, you know, radical clarity that you talk about here, Pete. How, how I, I keep myself accountable that I'm not losing this clarity. 

Pete: So the, the first thing is, is just to re you know, remind what listeners what I, what I just said.

'cause that's the, it starts with that. Once you know why you're here, that's very, [00:22:00] very simple story. You, you make sure everybody else sees that same story and and need why we're here. So it keeps everybody on the same page and the same priorities. And. And then you, you stay true to that number one over everything else.

So that means when you wake up, uh, at three in the morning and you're anxious because of that funding round that you're trying to get, and it, it things are out of your control or there's, there's too much to do. How am I gonna get that done? Uh, and I know this is easy to say and harder to do, but there really is value.

And at that point, stepping back and saying, okay, what's. Just let's go back to why we're, you know, where we're at in the journey. What, you know, it's not perfect, but is the, you know, what about. Going to where to, to this purpose we have for that target audience. What, where does that fit in here? Yeah, that's pretty important.

Well then is there something else that's less important that I can remove? Right? So it's about that, [00:23:00] that focus and that prioritization, and there's a certain amount of, um, uh, letting go, right? That you, you, you are, you are where you are and who and who you are, and you're not Superman. Except that this, there might be a setback or whatever.

And if are, you know, you can ask yourself, am I still committed to this thing I'm doing? Yeah, I am. Well, it's gonna be a little harder than I thought, but. I, I'm not failing, I'm just taking longer. Right. It's, it's, it's this focus on this mission that you're on. There's another aspect to it too, um, meme that it's something I call the, the, um, mindset of meaning for CEOs.

And it's especially helpful for accidental CEOs like you and me that can be so focused on how it works and, and, and the things. All the things. So three, three parts of this one is. Authenticity. Hmm. [00:24:00] And that is, uh, CEOs that are successful are transparent and they're, they're focused on the, the truth, if you will, um, what's really happening.

Not, not trying to control and make things be something it's not. Um, so that takes the pressure off some of this. It also. That's how you, that's how you unite your team, and that's how you, you, um, open the door for access to your prospects because they, if they believe that you're. Share, you're being true to them, right?

If you're, what they hear about you is accurate, and if what you promise them is, is what you will do, that that authenticity goes so far back to what we said about this crazy noisy world we live in. 

Mehmet: Yeah. 

Pete: Uh, you know, personally, so much of what I read and see, I wonder if [00:25:00] it's, if it's a machine talking to me anymore.

I think mostly it is. Right. AI and authenticity says if you can find a way to break through and be human. With people, your team and your prospects, that stands out in a way that no matter how sophisticated your other communications are, it stands out farther. So authenticity is the first, and being intentional is the second.

And that's that less is more idea that do what's important first. And if you don't have time for the thing, that's secondly important. You'll do it later, right? And and accept that that three 3:00 AM thing, accept what you can actually do that's important and that you're doing the important thing. And the third one we already mentioned is generosity.

Mehmet: Yes. Or empathy. You 

Pete: wrap that whole thing in. We're doing this to, to make these target, these bullseye customers' lives better in some way. That's why we're here. It just, [00:26:00] it just helps everybody cope with adversity a lot better. 

Mehmet: Um, one thing on that, Pete, like, uh, do they need, or like, of course they need to, but I mean, make it part of the company culture and part of.

You know, maybe every communication within the company, because usually what happens, and I've seen it with, uh, experienced CEOs and I've seen it with like, uh, new or as you call them, occasional CEOs, um, is the fact that because they have a lot of things going on, maybe they have some of, some clarity, but they miss on.

What we call the company culture, right? Mm-hmm. So, so having this culture of openness, transparency, and then they end up later on being kind of micromanaging, you know, the team. [00:27:00] Um, so how they can avoid reaching this point, I mean. How do they plant the seeds of all the, you know, the points that you just mentioned to make sure that o of course, because they're gonna scale and, you know, as, as a CEO, they will not be free to go and deliver this message for every single, uh, member on the team.

Especially maybe once they cross 2050. I don't know. What's the magic number here? Yeah. So how we make sure that this culture stays as they scale within the company. 

Pete: Totally agree that there's a certain number, whether it's 20 or 50, where, um, the, the way you manage the, the team before when you were smaller breaks no longer works.

Mm-hmm. And the reason why, in my opinion, is the source of that is when you start out and it's you and your, you know, your, your small team of five people that are with [00:28:00] you together, and they're you, you're in the trenches. Think about it all. First of all, all five of you had something. You, you, you had something in common that you saw, and you still feel that every day, right?

You're working together on this same stuff and you're all in the customer meetings pretty much. So, you know the prospect meetings and you're all dealing with the, the product challenges or the launches. So you've just got this natural, uh, bond. But as you grow, you start to specialize. You start, you know, few, uh, low, smaller, smaller percent of the people in the business are actually directly involved with selling a product or operating, you know, or building the product.

And so without that common experience. People just naturally go different directions and they have a different perception of what's important. That's the culture can help glue that together. So if you as the [00:29:00] CEO, if you, if you do what I said before and you're the steward of the, the truth, right? The, the true story, if you keep that at the center.

That grows into your culture, that that becomes your true story. You know, people talk about product market fit, they talk about brand, they talk about culture. I believe if you're doing this well, all of those are very much overlapped and, and part of the same thing. And they all have to, at their center, this purpose, this true story, this reason we're here and, and who we're helping.

Um, I, I use a term, it doesn't sound very good, but I, I just love the thought behind it. It's called zero culture. Hmm. And what I mean by that is, ra, back to simplicity, uh, clarity rather than adding a culture for your, for your, uh, [00:30:00] business. What you do is you take things away from that culture that is there, that core, that really works, that is getting in the way.

So remember we said your business is essentially these two poles. It's what we do that, you know, gives value to this target market. So that attraction zero culture says everything that is in the way of that. Value going to the client. It's a natural pull. It's because we have this thing that's inherently valuable for them and they have this need that will just draws that to them.

And the only reason they're not getting it is because we're not. And we're not. We're ge. We're in the way. So I like to say, find your truth and get out of the way. And if you have that at the core of your business, not [00:31:00] just your product development, but how you, how you do your meetings, how you relate to each other, how you treat each other, the values that you, you put, uh, you know, you raise up as important for your business if they are all about getting out of the way of the value.

That's what I mean by zero culture. Um. It's kinda like you let the, the laws of business physics happen right there. It's like gravity or, or magnetism of, of, of value. And, and if it's there, it's always there. And the reason the company, the reason it's not working isn't that you didn't do things. It's more that you are doing things that are in the way.

It's a different way to think about it. 

Mehmet: It's 

Pete: like overcomplicating things, right? Overcomplicating. Yep. Or, or, um. Being inconsistent. That's the other thing. You have one side of the business doing one thing and another side of the business doing something that, uh, is confusing because it's not the same, uh, way we talk about it, or it's [00:32:00] not the same way we we do it.

And that really confuses clients and prospects. 

Mehmet: You mentioned it like a couple of, um, you know, moments ago, and I know it like you, you have it kind of a we and, and we just. Talked about now, but uh, you have this term, or you call it a mantra, simplify to grow. Um, now again, back to these occasional founders, right, who became CEOs.

How they can learn how to do this, because you mentioned something also, I believe it's fundamental, uh, in the introduction about, you know, the conception we have from society, what we have been taught, uh, we are given, um, you know, playbooks and people know I have like this sensibility sensitivity towards playbooks and, you know, fixed things.

So. I, I need to leave [00:33:00] everything behind and start thinking in a different way now. How, how I can also part of the journey when I want to start to simplify things to grow. Make sure that I still kind of showing this flexibility because I know and I've seen it also, uh, maybe you can share some of your experience.

Speed. You have a lot of experts coming in, maybe they are mentors and they'll be telling, you know, the CEO multiple things at the same time. And again, they lose the clarity because someone, they'll say, Hey, like I have done this for 25 years. We have done it all the time this way. This what you should be doing next.

Maybe on the sales side. Someone will come and say, no, like you are in it to the SaaS business and the SaaS business playbook should be done this way. And we're talking only about sales and marketing, and there's a bunch of other functions that the CEO maybe at the beginning they need to be involved in.[00:34:00] 

So how I can do this filtration so I can simplify, think, and grow. 

Pete: I love that question, meme, and the, the way I see it is if you're an accidental CEO, you are, you're an expert at what you do, technology, product policy, what this thing you do, you're. Good at that. Right? Right. You can succeed as a CEO, um, not by giving up your expertise, but by using it to help you, uh, navigate all these in competencies.

All these things you don't know how to do that you really have to be able to do. So, um, the way to do it is not to try to be an expert on things. You're not an expert on. But rather use your, your core, uh, expertise and this true story, [00:35:00] this mission you're on as your compass for all of these decisions. So I'll give you, I'll give you a an example of what I mean by that.

Um, let's say that, well, first of all, so what that means is you need to add to your technical expertise. Pros, A com, uh, customer expertise. So if you're gonna invest in anything, expand your understanding of what you make to who you make it for, and what's their need, what's their experience? What, what works, what doesn't.

So the more you know about that who, 'cause you know the why, the more you know about the who. The better you're gonna be able to navigate all these, all these things. Because what happens, let's say you have a, a financial situation where you need to, you know, organize the company financially in some way and you bring in an expert 'cause you're not a financial expert [00:36:00] and you know, investor, corporate, investment executive, and they start explaining to you, well you need to do this.

So that in my experience, you know, it's, this is the right way to do it. They have all these recommendations. Your job isn't to understand their expertise in that situation. Your job is to represent your mission, which is your strength. I know what we make and how we can, options for how we can deliver it, and I know what the end result is.

I know what that client, that prospect, that customer needs or wants or what we believe we can give them. So then you just. You know, you're curious with that expert, whatever field it is, you're curious and you say, explain to me how that will work here. Here's how we need this to play out for my investors, or whatever it might be, your audience.

What are my options then? Right? So, test everything you hear from these experts against the foundation, [00:37:00] that foundation of your expertise and your, your mission for your, your clients. That is, it's scary not to be an expert on all these things because you're used to being the expert. Mm-hmm. But that's your future as a CEO.

You're never gonna know everything. What I encourage you to do is just double down on, on being the expert on that thing you do and who you do it for. 

Mehmet: Um, how much this intersect with the famous saying, um, of do things that don't scale. 

Pete: Tell me, uh, more what you mean by that. 

Mehmet: Yeah, so, so there is a, you know, it's, uh, from, uh, you know, Paul Graham of Y Combinator, like he said, like, you should, you should be doing the things that don't scale, meaning that at the beginning you need to get involved and learn all the things that you usually, um, you would not be able to maybe hire because you don't have enough money.

Yeah. Uh, [00:38:00] you need to learn all these things. So how much that intersect. 'cause it's a very famous world in, in the startup world also as well. 

Pete: Well, I think of, you know, of course you need to, um, you need to, there, there's that certain level of understanding you need. I believe that you. You need to do things that don't scale, but you don't wanna be the expert at things that don't scale.

Mm-hmm. If that makes sense. So, yes. Yeah. Um, you need to dive into it enough to know how that thing affects what you're doing. It's almost like an API a, personal API, right? You need to be able to totally interface with this, this thing, this competence, um, this function in your business so that it is providing everything that your customers need and your, you know, your product needs, but you don't need to know how it works on the other end.

Um, you can't afford to. Right. And yes, when you're, when, when there's no money, you [00:39:00] do what you have to do, but you're not gonna be an expert on those things. You just do enough. Right. You just do enough to get by. 

Mehmet: Right. Now, you mentioned about AI and authenticity. You, you, you tied both together, and I know, like you say, the the most human wins, uh, how this, um, can be seen.

In a world where you talked about noise and you know, I, you maybe saw my eyes like, were like this because I always, you know, in all my discussions, even when I write my thoughts, uh, sometimes I always repeat like, we are living in a noisy world. It's, again, we've been living in the O world for a long time.

I would say since maybe we, we start to have radios and, and televisions probably, um. How I can be as again, an accidental founder, making sure that I keep the [00:40:00] human touch there despite this noise. Because you know what happens, Pete, and I've seen it beforehand on, on different people, me included. You know, I don't exclude myself.

I'm not saying a special person. I'm a human also. So when we see. People doing certain things and maybe using AI is one of them. Or maybe we see people leveraging a specific, I would call it robotic way of doing things, communicating with their customers at. Um, it might have worked with one, two cases, and then you find this guy or someone who comes up and say, Hey, like, this is the only thing you need to do to do this.

And they give you these messaging and they give you, you know, what, you have to write, how you have to say it. And then after a while you start to see them acting like robots. Yep. Now how I can. As a accidental CO, avoid the strap and make sure that, you know, [00:41:00] make sure that I am able to distinguish between.

The thing that I really need to do, maybe I need to change, maybe I need to change the tone. I speak with people because I come from a technical background. I'm a little bit kind of rude guy, and now I need like to show this empathy. I understand that maybe we need to do a few changes. Changes, but how I avoid looking like I'm an AI or looking like a.

Pete: What a great topic this, uh, meed, as you said, that we're all facing this now. We all see it in our daily lives. The effects of inauthentic communications coming from ai right. Or, or influenced by ai. And so that, um, I'm being a robot with AI's help, right? Um. And it's so tempting because back to what we said about doing less, you know, less is more what, what society, what [00:42:00] business, what all of our examples say is AI allows me to do things 10 times.

Bigger or do 10 times more things, or you know, 10 times easier or a hundred times right? And so it looks free. And it looks, um, not only free, it looks like, well, I have to, uh, send AI emails because I can send 10 times as money as many. Why wouldn't I do that? And the reason why that won't work is every one of your competitors, every one of us.

Has that option now. So, Miette, you think it's noisy now? Wait till next year or the year after because it's only right. It's gonna get worse. Uh, and I, I think that that whole uh, strategy, that whole marketing, [00:43:00] uh, model is broken because of ai.

Um, companies that succeed are gonna be the ones that wrestle with this hard thing of, how can I be human? How can I show up as a hu authentic human to my clients and prospects and employees? How do I do that at scale? Because, you know, it's, it's one thing you and I were talking. Real time, you know, face-to-face.

This is it. This is the good stuff, right? We're sharing ideas. Well, that doesn't scale. I can't talk to every one of my clients this way. Um, but if I turn it over to ai, I am gonna have less and less impact that way. And I might even turn people away because I know personally, I, uh, I have a bias [00:44:00] against.

Communications that I believe are coming from, uh, a robot and meme. There's very few cases where they can prove to me that they're not a robot anymore. So the solution, I don't have an easy answer for you. I can't say, oh, we'll do this recipe, that recipe, you know? Yeah. 

Mehmet: Against that. 

Pete: Right. But the good news about that, the positive is because it's so hard.

If you take it on as a CEO and you say, we're gonna wrestle with this as a company, we're gonna work on how we can come up with creative, innovative ways to show up authentically in our market as this world changes every year, we're gonna have, we're gonna have to keep working on that. But if you invest in that.

You won't do it perfectly, but if you're, if you've made progress, if you found some processes or some tools or some, um, ideas in your company or culture or [00:45:00] values, things that help you do that better compared to others, you'll stand out because. The vast majority of businesses are gonna fall into the temptation of the, the easy button.

And uh, it's gonna be just a bunch of garbage and we're all gonna lose interest in that. Oh, we'll probably ask ai. We already are asking AI to sort through that for us. Right? 

Mehmet: Yeah. You know, it's funny. Um. I dunno where I got this, this, uh, thought from. Uh, but it, it wa it was triggered by two things. So it, it was triggered by me receiving these messages you're talking about, and it was triggered by someone, which I don't know really who posted on LinkedIn, um, kind of complaining, right.

And then I, you know, just reflected for a moment and I said. Okay, hold on one second. What is ai? Right, so AI is just a piece of software and [00:46:00] it's like instruction that we give to a machine to act in a way that we wanted to do. And then I figured out to your point, like of course, ai. Amplify this in a scary way, but I believe the noise, this is my own opinion.

Of course, the noise was there and the, uh, all the stuff that I don't like, which is exactly what you were mentioning. Pete was there before. I can give you an example. Maybe. I know some of my friends even will, will be based off from me, but I can give, you know, from a simple. Vertical. I was kind of involved in at some stage, cybersecurity, right?

You see the messaging in cybersecurity. Oh, if you don't buy us, you will be hit by viruses, ransomware, whatever. And you see every single vendor started to copy the same message. You talk to salespeople, they talk the same language. And I, you know. I, when I stepped out from being a guy, working for a company, I become kind of an the independent guy.

This is where customers start to open [00:47:00] up with me, of course, like. You know, because I don't wear any hat anymore. It's me as mammo and they start to tell me, Hey, you know what, man? Like everything comes to us with the same messaging. We are bored of that. We don't want to hear the same, you know, it's like the old tape that is keep, you know, repeating again, again and again.

I don't want to hear that. You know, I need to hear something new. If you're not here with some new messaging, you know that that doesn't work. And I think this is resonating now with people. The other thing which I said is we trained AI with what we used to do, which, you know, it's not authentic. It's built on like.

You know, fixated, uh, playbooks, I call them that might work, might not work. And then you go and tell the, uh, hey, like, uh, give me a cold email template for this business. And Oh yeah, like, see it, understand our business. Said guys, so what, because the thing that I, you know, and, and it's coming to, to the [00:48:00] thing that you mentioned, Pete, and this is why I like also the discussion about, you know, this.

Two polls you mentioned about like your purpose and you know, the, the empathy, generosity, all the other things you mentioned. And this is why I tell people, like, if you don't have this, I call it empathy, authenticity, and the purpose. So you're gonna lose a lot because customer will feel it, they will smell it far away.

And by the way, you don't have even sometimes to use ai, you can feel that they memorize this. Script. Yes. And they're just trying to, to say the script. Yeah. And I, and AI is just, you know, what, what is ai? Like we, we trained AI on our own data, right? Yes. So us as a humans, we just go and blame ai. And, you know, this is what I wrote yesterday, uh, on, on my LinkedIn post.

I said before, like comparing about ai, I think we should come, go and fix ourself before we fix ai. Because if we fix ourself, AI become much more fixable because AI is just. Trying to mimic, you know, what we do. So it's just my 2 cents on [00:49:00] this. Uh, but, but indeed, indeed, Pete, like it's something very important, uh, you know, to, to, to be authentic and, you know, try to show this empathy, generosity, as you call it.

Try to show that you really care about your customers, partners, employees also as well. Yep. Uh, and lead with example now, um. When you start to work with these founders, like is there an assessment you do with them, Pete, or is it like you assume that you know, just they are occasional founders, they just started it and you, you, you know, it's like a same, not the same thing, but I mean it's the process get repeated almost all the time, or is it like something you customize when you work with your own clients?

Pete: It's very custom. You know, as we talked about there, the accidental CEOs have some things in common, but the needs they have and their strengths and, and, and opportunities are different. [00:50:00] And I like to start with, uh, something that's actually available on the, the, uh, page that I'm gonna share with your listeners at the end here.

It's called the accidental CEO audit, and it's an online questionnaire. It's like 15 questions. It's not very long, but it gives, uh, and then I create a report that looks at their. Their relative strengths and weaknesses on five, uh, key vectors of CCE being a CEO. So rather than things like financial acumen or fun, like we said, rather than the functional stuff, what are the almost, um, the outcomes of what A CEO is about?

And the five are, see if I can remember them off the top of my head. Strategy, leadership, growth, culture. Alignment. So these are things that if they're successful with their company, they'll see these things happening in their business. So how are they at being able to deliver on those five? So we [00:51:00] start with that as a, as a sense to say where, where's the biggest, you know, um, impediment for their growth.

And then it often, as I said, it gets into the idea of uncovering that true story for their business and for them. 

Mehmet: I can imagine the ROI is, you know, in, in, in double digits, if not three digits. Yeah. It's 

Pete: really, you know, and just I'll mention in the book I share three stories of, of businesses I worked with that the transformation, uh, of their businesses was, was really something to see.

And, uh, those are some examples of it. It is fun to see that light bulb go off and, and see their, their trajectory change. 

Mehmet: Out of curiosity and you know, again, it's something that popped up in my head just now. Have you seen maybe what in within your client base, or maybe you have seen it, some, uh, um, you know, with, with someone else where because of defining, you know, their why.

They change something radically in their business. [00:52:00] Maybe the business model, maybe the, um, you know, the personas of the customers they try to target. Have you seen something radical like this? No. It's interesting 

Pete: you asked that because what I found is almost without fail, I can't think of an example where this wasn't true.

We never have a situation where there's a problem with their why. So there there's a truth there. There's a, there's a strong truth about their business that was there all along, and they just, we needed to uncover it and make it, make it visible to, to them, and, and understandable to them. So. There hasn't been a need to reinvent the business very much.

It is more what I said before about they're doing all these things that aren't helping with that thing that they needed, that they really are about. So an example would be one client had a, had a big transformational experience, but it was mostly [00:53:00] about, they had this really powerful SaaS platform. It could do so much that they kept being tempted by all these different opportunities that were not in this very sharply defined segment of the market, and we were able to together agree.

You know what? I know those other industries and those other markets are attractive to you and are tempting. This one tiny little sliver of the market is a $350 million opportunity for your business. Let's just focus on that. Yeah. And say more to all the rest. And we re, we rewrote their website and their, their story about the product to be just for this one application.

And that made all the difference in the world. It's the same product really. Um, but it. Now it's just clear to everybody exactly who it's for, and it opens up the door for that [00:54:00] market in a way they couldn't before 

Mehmet: delivering the right messaging of the value proposition without maybe changing the product itself.

Pete: And, and, but to be fair by doing that. Imagine you're on the product team and you're getting called into these different sales calls with different industries, but then that changes and we say, you know what, we're just about this one market and all the customer, all the prospect meetings are just about that.

Don't you think your ability to, to create, um, um, new features and, and improve the product gets better? It absolutely does. So the product got. Better too. Once that decision was made because it was clear what exactly what it was for. 

Mehmet: Yeah, and I believe, and I'm sure you've seen it, Pete, like once I master one specific, uh, market segment, it'll be much easier later to copy that or let's say replicate that to, to other [00:55:00] maybe markets, to other use cases as because you master it and then now you learned also how to tweak.

Yeah. The messaging, how to tweak maybe even the, which features you should bring in front, like. Which, uh, personas you should be speaking with. So that's make a lot of sense. I agree. Um, yeah, a hundred percent. Pete, like really, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm enjoying the discussion with you today. And, you know, you, you, you shed light on many, many important aspects of the journey of, of these founders.

Now, the traditional question I asked towards the end, uh, of, of my episodes. Where people can get in touch, how they can start with you and I, I think the book is, uh, available. Tell us like where we, we can find more and get in touch with you, 

Pete: ma, I made it easier for your listeners. I've created a a page for anybody that's listening to this episode that will give them some, some goodies that they can learn more.

It's gonna be at my [00:56:00] website@b2bclarity.com slash cto. And if they go there then, and if you, if you don't mind putting that in the show notes, that'd be awesome. 

Mehmet: Of 

Pete: course. And there, they can buy the book, they can get some frameworks from the book that I'll have worksheets there that they can download and they, if they wanna reach out and have a chat with me, they can do that from there as well.

All, all free. I guess the book, you gotta, uh, you go to Amazon for the book, but 

Mehmet: yeah, sure. I, I really appreciate that, uh, this generosity also from you, Pete. Thank you very much and thank you, you know, for the time, uh, I know how things can get busy, especially start of the day for you, almost beginning of the week.

And I'm transparent with the audience for recording on Tuesday, 7th of October. So probably we're watching this two weeks after today. Um. And yeah, so the, the link that you mentioned, Pete, it'll be available in the show notes. Any, uh, podcasting app you're using, you will find them there. If you're watching on YouTube, you'll find them in description.[00:57:00] 

And again, I can't thank you enough, Pete, for all the insights you gave us today. And this is for the audience. This is how I end my episodes. Uh, if you just discovered this podcast by luck or by chance, thank you for passing by. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, so, give me a small favor. Just subscribe and share it with a couple of people, you know, just your inner circle.

We are trying to make an impact. We're trying to reach people to get benefit of all. You know, the guests I had on the show, including Pete, who might inspire you, who might help you if you are feeling. Lost. You need some clarity. So you know, like for example, you can get to Pete and if you are one of the people who keeps coming again and again, thank you very much for the support.

Thank you for Loyality. Thank you for all what you're doing for the show. I know like it's kind of a cliche now, I repeat at the end of each episode, but without. Two factors. First, of course, the audience and of course my, all my guests, the CTO show could not [00:58:00] in 2025, never lose one week a position somewhere in the world.

On the top 200 Apple podcast chart, this is something, you know, I've been doing this for almost three years, but this year was really different. And you're not failing me guys. So thank you for all the support and thank you for also supporting the launch of my book From Where Nowhere to Next. And if you want to grab your copy, it's also available on Amazon.

You'll find the link on the Ct O Show website, which is mame cto.show. And again, thank you very much for tuning in. We'll meet again very soon. Thank you. Bye-bye.