#510 Will AI Replace Teachers? Greg Banks on the Real Future of Education

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Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to the episode of the CTO Show with Mehmet today. I'm very pleased joining me, Greg Banks. Greg, thank you very much for being, uh, here with me today on the show. I appreciate the time. Um, the way I love to do it [00:01:00] is I keep to my guests to introduce themselves, you know. Give me a little bit more about, you know, your, your background, your journey, what you're currently up to, just the kind of teaser for the audience.

We're gonna talk a lot about education today and everything related to education from technology perspective, but again, I don't like to take from my guests a lot, so I gotta pass it to you. Greg, the floor is yours. 

Greg: Fantastic. And Mehmet, thanks so much for having me on today. It's really a pleasure to be here with you.

Um, so my, uh, I'll work kind of up to today and kind of what might be relevant for your audience. Uh, I've been a, a teacher and a school administrator for 20 years. Um, I got into education, uh, because I wanted to, uh, create schools that could serve city kids. I live in the Boston, Massachusetts area of the United States, and, uh, started out as a chemistry teacher.

I did work in the chemistry field for a while, but uh, went into teaching, uh, became an [00:02:00] administrator. Uh, ended up getting a PhD in chemistry with a focus on chemistry education. And so, uh, have also done some, uh. Uh, research on chemistry teaching. I've also developed professional development for, uh, high school and, uh, college teachers in the area of science teaching.

So, uh, really everything around. How do you help kids learn? I've focused mostly in the high school level, um, but I've also worked with some middle school and, uh, some college students as well. And, uh, how I got onto this topic, um, is that, uh, there have been technology infusions into K 12 education and, and in the United States we tend to group, um, let's say age five through age 18 into this basket called K 12.

Um, so that's what I'm referring to. So there's been tech kind of infused into K12 education throughout my career. Um, it started out with these, uh, little [00:03:00] devices called clickers that were like TV remote controls. Um, and it went on to things like, uh, smart boards and laptops and, uh, MOOCs, massive online open courses, um, and of course the internet.

And so I've seen these things come and I've heard the promise. Uh, and I've also seen the promise not be delivered. And so when I was working on a research project with, uh, it's a, a company called EDO Learning. Uh, they develop, uh, AI related products for education and, uh, we were studying kind of implementation of one of their products.

And I was talking with one of their engineers, brilliant guy, and we were talking about how some aspect of the costume worked and I was explaining kind of the mechanics of how it worked. And it was, it was a complete surprise to him. Uh, and it was something that was. Uh, if I had been talking to any of my teacher colleagues, it would've been very [00:04:00] clear.

Uh, it would've been something that they all knew. Uh, and that's where it struck me that if you're at the education field, there are many things that you may not be aware of. Uh, and this is true of most fields, I'm sure in, in every field. There are things that people pick up by experience over time that people outside the field don't know.

And the challenge of developers, of coders and developers, people building products for education is that if they are building products for something that is, uh, in a field that they don't have direct knowledge of. They have to kind of jump in with some kind of knowledge to build the product, which they may not have.

And so that led me to, uh, write a book about, uh, kind of everything that they would need to know, the developers would need to know in order to be developing AI products, uh, for the classroom. Um, so that's kind of how I made the jump from, uh, being in education to, to [00:05:00] talking more about ai. 

Mehmet: Cool. And, uh, again, thank you for being here with me today.

Uh, Greg, I appreciate the time. Now, you know, you, you took the first question from me, you know, about like, what's that, what was the pivotal moment that made you do the, the, the shift, which is, which is fantastic. Now, um, you, you, you also like, uh, um, you know, uh, talked about, uh, the book, uh, so. You touched base a little bit, but I believe there are like more gaps, which we are discovering by the day between mainly of, of course, in the tech, but mainly AI and education.

Let me frame the question this way. Do you think that this fast development of AI that we've seen in the past two, three years. [00:06:00] Uncovered these, I would say, you know, shortcomings that we have in education system today in a fast way that even sometimes, like me as a person, you know, very much, you know, believing in education.

I remember my days in school, but watching now my, my daughter going to, uh, to, to her high school and to figure out like, really, like this is, like, there's a. Complete, you know, nonsense over here. Uh, from your perspective as an educator and someone in in tech, how this fast development also was, you know, mainly a contributor to, to cover these, uh, uh, upcomings or shortcomings.

Greg: That's a great question. And if I'm understanding you, it sounds like what you're, what you're noticing. Is that, um, what, what teenagers, let's say, uh, are [00:07:00] aware of and what they're able to do themselves using ai, uh, is so advanced compared to what their teachers in school are still asking them to do. Right?

Uh, and it makes you wonder, you as a parent, it makes you wonder why are schools still having them teach things that are down here that AI can do and produce results that are up here. You know, does it make sense to have them still learning in that, learning those same things? Is that, is that that your question?

Mehmet: Exactly, exactly. 

Greg: Yeah, that's, that's a complicated question. So, um, I think there's two parts to that question. Um. I think there, there is, how do we change the outcomes, the targets that our school systems have, uh, are directing our kids towards. Um, and that's a, that's a big question. Um, and then there's also the question around, um, [00:08:00] how is AI as a tool.

Best used in school and though they sound kind of like the same question, they're actually different. So one is, is what should students learn? And the other is kind of how should students learn. Right. And I, if I can speak that the how part first, and then we'll get to the what. Um, so when I've seen with the introduction of technology is that very often tech will come in and it will be engaging and interesting.

But it, it won't really deliver on its promise and it will end up interfering with the way that students and teachers learn. And one thing to keep in mind is that kids are not just short adults. Like kids have different needs, they have developmental needs that are very different from adults. And what might work for an adult might be disastrous for kids.

So recently we had the [00:09:00] COVID-19. Uh. Shutdowns for school. I was, uh, actually teaching at the time. And, uh, we would, we would try to teach on Zoom and it was a disaster. So prior to this, people were saying, Hey, we have these massive online open courses. We can have students go to school from the comfort of their home.

They can learn from the rock stars in every field. This will be great. It's really going to change education. Well, the actual result was that kids hated it. They didn't wanna learn on a Zoom, they didn't wanna watch a teacher. They, uh, and there was massive learning loss, huge social, emotional, uh, uh, challenges.

A few kids liked it, but the vast majority of them did very poorly on it. Adults do great with it. Kids not so much. So in terms of, of how we use ai, I think it's really important that how the tools are introduced. Is done with an understanding of what is it that kids are [00:10:00] getting in a positive sense? What are the kids getting from school?

Because if all kids need is information, they don't need to go to school. Information's everywhere. Uh, but we know that information is not enough because, uh, there's, there's that saying, if information we're all it took, we'd all have six pack abs and be billionaires. Um. But you need more than just information.

So, uh, we can, we can talk about that if that's a, a topic of interest. So that's kind of the how, um, in terms of the what, the targeting, that's a trickier question because the, you have a, a number of stakeholders. You have parents, you have, uh, teachers, you have, uh, government, um, officials, and it's really the government officials in the United States.

It's, it's the states. Set the targets for education and the teachers just carry out those targets. So, mm-hmm. Are we going to say, okay, students no longer need to learn, uh, geometry, or they no longer need to learn to write a five paragraph [00:11:00] essay. Maybe, maybe that's the case. Maybe we should change that. Um, but that's gonna take some time.

Um, and, uh, there may be an argument to be made that. You know, the kids that are in the classroom right now are important and we need to, to make some decisions faster. Uh, but whether we should change the target toward which students are learning is, is a great question. And honestly, no, nobody knows the answer.

Um, and, and I could tell you a bit of how AI is being used in school right now. 

Mehmet: Yeah, sure. 

Greg: So, um, when, when AI first, but 

Mehmet: before this Greg, but before that Greg, yeah. I, I want to listen to this, but I want you also to highlight a, about, uh, okay. How is AI use is very important. But if you remember, there was this debate when ai, I mean, Chad, GPT AI was there before.

Like, should we allow it in schools? We don't allow it in schools. So if you can also touch base on that part also as well. 

Greg: That, that's a great, that's a great starting point, right? So when it first, when [00:12:00] chat GPT first arose. Um, the response of schools was prohibitive, so they, they tried to prohibit it. Um, and I say tried because, uh, there's no way for schools to know, for teachers to know when a student uses, uh, a, a chat bot to do their work.

Um, there were supposedly tools that were gonna come out that could detect it, but they didn't work. Um, and there really is no way to know. And so teachers in schools and, and I wrestled with this as an administrator, you know, how do we enforce academic integrity? If we're asking students to produce something outside of school and they turn it in, how do you know that they did the work?

And the answer is, you don't. Not anymore. And so more and more we're seeing that schools are, uh, if they want to assess what students actually know and can do, that they are having those students produce that work under testing conditions in school. [00:13:00] Um, that, I mean, that's a real nuts and bolts kind of, uh, of, of, of response to that.

So prohibiting chat, GPT is one aspect. There's starting to be a sense of kind of the next stage, which is assimilative. So assimilating. AI in lessons. Um, but this is really, and I've heard this come up in other conversations on your podcast. This is kind of like strapping on AI into what you're already doing.

Right. And, and that would be, so, uh, I'm remembering a coding class. It was a Python class where students would check their code if it wasn't working, they would check their code using chat GPT. Um, and that's very effective because there's only one teacher and you have a number of students. But if you can drop your code in, uh, and have an LLM check it, um, you get much faster results.

It's super effective. Um, you could do that in English class with an essay. Please give me, uh, feedback on my essay. So it's being used that way as kind of like a strap on an additional tool. [00:14:00] Um, but there's only so many places where it fits in neatly that way. Um, and so where I think the biggest opportunity is, is to integrate it in school, is to integrate it in a behind the scenes way.

And not that there, not, that there aren't direct lessons that, that teachers could develop using AI tools. Um. But that's gonna take some time. Uh, what I mean by integrative is having AI applications, helping the teacher do things that the teacher can't currently do. Um, analyzing student work, monitoring student conversations, and, uh, providing the teacher feedback or even, uh, uh, offering the students extra guidance while the students are working on a challenge.

And, and there are various ways that it could do that. So, um, integrating AI more in what's going on in the classroom. 

Mehmet: You talked about the role of the teachers, right? And, [00:15:00] um, I know like, um, you, you, you wrote about this and, you know, uh, you. You, you try to undo the code or like crack the code over here. So what do you think?

Let me ask you this wave. So from products perspective, if I'm developing an ed tech AI power product today. Why it's important also to put the teachers in mind, because usually what I see people doing is they focus on the students, which is okay. Mm-hmm. But I think they don't focus on, on the teacher, which is, is the person who is responsible of delivering this knowledge and.

How we can prepare the teachers. Now, probably the new generation of teachers will be, you know, almost like, uh, tech savvy, let's put it this way. But still, maybe if they have, I don't know, like if someone studied English literature, just, [00:16:00] you know, I'm making this up. How much do you think they would be familiar of using this AI tools?

What should we do with them before using AI tools in the classroom? 

Greg: Yeah, I mean that's a, that's a fair question. Um, and, you know, AI is all over the news and people are seeing how it, it has already changed the employment landscape and the career landscape. And, uh, I think teachers, as with many professionals are aware that they need to learn to use this if they're going to have a, a long career.

And I, I do think that, uh, I should say, I don't think that there's going to be a major reduction in force of teachers. I think teachers will still be necessary. I think especially with kids. Uh, kids want to learn in a classroom with other kids. With teachers, um, I think that's not going away. So the key is how do you get teachers up to speed in [00:17:00] using this technology?

And I think right now there's a, an openness to it and there's an eagerness for it. I think teachers don't want to be left behind. Mm-hmm. Um, they want to stay marketable. And that's also why it's so important to get it right, to build these products with an understanding of the classroom. Because if products come in and they don't work, if it looks like, um, online school again, or if it looks like clickers or if it looks like laptops, uh, at a point where, where honestly now in the classroom, uh, we're seeing phones removed, we're seeing laptops removed because there's too much of a distraction.

So if AI is brought in in a way where it's like, this is just another distraction. Um, then I think there's going to be some resistance developing, but at this point, for the most part, I think there is a lot of interest. Um, and it's a really opportune moment to get it right, um, and to do some, some great, uh, new development.

Mehmet: Greg, you, it's interesting you mentioned, um, about, uh, the [00:18:00] devices in school. Uh, I'm, I live in Dubai and I was listening on, you know, I was. Moving, uh, in the city. Uh, so on the radio that I usually listen to, they were discussing this topic and, you know, like they were mentioning like, yeah, like, uh, the, like government entity responsible for schools.

You know, they, they, they want their help, actually the parents and also some school seniors to put some rules regarding, you know. Use of phones, laptops, tablets, whatever that is. And this is immediately, you know, brought this to me. Uh, maybe I'm a little bit biased, maybe I'm a little bit extreme. I don't know.

I don't like anything, you know, to, to, to ban people from doing anything, including children. Okay. Maybe less than 12 years old. I can understand this, but I mean, like once they, because come on, like at this generation, they are so smart. But the thing that immediately came to my mind is that now every [00:19:00] single AI company, if we really look at what they are trying to do, they're gonna embed AI in everything.

Mm-hmm. We are talking about, you know, already we have some, um, you know. I would say, uh, MVPs around it. So we have the glasses where you can have like some interaction. You, you, they're talking about open AI coming up with a device that I don't know where it's gonna be. Is it a ring, is it a glass? I'm not sure, but I think kids will find the way still to get this in.

Don't you think that as educators, as, as people who are responsible for education of teenagers, we need to. Find a better way than telling them, no, you can't bring your phone. I'm not sure what the alternative would be because my theory says like. Teenagers, they like to break the rules, right? And they're gonna find their ways.

Uh, and this is kind of, you know, like for me, and they, I know like in some places, like [00:20:00] Europe's, what they were mentioning on the show that they went back from using, you know, laptops and tablets in location back to. Pen and paper, which is fine, but still you no restriction too much. I see it as little bit risky because everything around us is changing very fast.

And then my theory, and I want to hear your opinion as someone who work this for, for a long time, Greg, the problem with us, my generation, for example, we're not allowed to use calculators. And guess what? When we went out. There was no harm of using a calculator. My, uh, intelligence didn't decrease with time because I'm using calculator in my job day to day, right?

Mm-hmm. So, uh, what my concern is if we push back on using technology at that age, you know, they gonna rebel on us later on. And why you did all these restrictions on us? I know maybe it's kind of an off [00:21:00] topic thing, but because you just mentioned it, what you say on that. 

Greg: Um, I mean, that's a great point and I, I really love that you're talking about, um, you know, individual freedom in general, not just of kids, but of people.

I think that's always important to keep in mind. Um, I think it's easy. When you're talking about how do you solve a problem, to come up with something that's heavy handed that tries to force people to do things they don't want to do, and we should always be cautious around that. So I, I, I appreciate and respect that you brought that up.

Um, there is a book, uh, that came out in 2024 in the United States, uh, by, um, Jonathan het called The Anxious Generation. Uh, I don't know if you've ever read that or heard of it. Um, I, but I would encourage. I would encourage your, your listeners to read it or at least read what's been written about it.

Essentially what it, what it has found. And, uh, the, the interpretations, the findings have stood up to scrutiny. Uh, is that after the introduction of the front facing camera on the smartphone, so the selfie [00:22:00] camera, um, anxiety and depression went up dramatically, uh, in, in both boys and girls more significantly in girls.

And, um. That there's been a number of negative emotional and social outcomes as a result of having, uh, of kids having smartphone. Um, now no one is saying kids shouldn't have phones, period. End of sentence. If you add up the total number of hours that kids are in school, uh, in, in classes, let's say, I mean, it comes out to be about, I don't know, six hours, maybe eight hours at the most.

Um, so no one is saying that kids should be banned from having cell phones 24 hours a day, seven days a week, uh, but for a period of six to eight hours a day for the purpose of, um, uh, school, uh. There's an argument to be made. And, and that is that remember, kids are not just short adults. They're, they're developing and mm-hmm.

Uh, evolution has, has, or, or whatever ha, has designed us so that [00:23:00] at that point in our development, when we're, um, you know, growing up through those preteen and teen years, um, that we learn to relate to other people by. Face-to-face interaction, not face the screen to screen to face interaction. Mm-hmm. But face-to-face interaction, embodied interaction.

Interaction, where we're standing next to each other, where we're talking to each other, where we're talking in a group and. What what has been observed, and this is not just theoretical, this is what's been been observed when those phones are around, is that kids will interact with the phone and not with each other.

And so that's retarding that growth. And so while it can seem like a kindness to let kids have what they want. Just as you know, we tell kids to brush their teeth whether they want to or not. We tell 'em to eat a healthy dinner whether they want to or not. There are just some things we do as parents because we, we have knowledge of what's coming down the road, and one of the things that kids need to do, especially today, is to be able to relate to, to other people.[00:24:00] 

You know, it's, it's, um, it's your charisma miette as a, as a host that is allowing you to connect to other people. It's not your, I know you have technical skill as well, but it's, it's your interpersonal skill and, and that adeptness you have at relating to other people that is allowing you to kind of distinguish yourself in this field.

And so even more as AI is, is going to become a tool that everybody uses. What's going to distinguish people is, is their uniqueness as, as human. And in order to develop that, uh, kids need to have that time where they don't have devices. They're gonna be surrounded by devices every other moment of the day.

And so carving out a six to eight hour period, five days a week, it's not a lot of time. Uh, and it will allow them to develop that side of themselves, and it will also allow whatever's happening in the classroom. You know, we're assuming it's designed by a skillful teacher, whatever else is happening in the classroom.

To happen without the distraction. [00:25:00] And if I could just say one more thing. Sure. I, I was in the classroom in 2008 before that, but in 2008 when phones first started coming in and we had this conversation of like, can we tell them to put their phones away? Can we tell them to not bring them? And there was a, a big question of like, well, this is their private property.

I was in a public school. It's especially relevant. Mm. Um, and so for. You know, the last 10, 12 years, we have said, okay, we're gonna let kids have their phones and we're just going to try to minimize it. Like we've tried it and the results haven't been good. And if you care about kids and you care about student learning and you care about the growth and you see that what you're doing isn't working, uh, and it's having negative results, then you do something different.

And so we're trying something different. 

Mehmet: Absolutely. And again, this is my own 2 cents because by the way, you mentioned something about what happened during the pandemic, right? So when, when, when kids were forced to go to Zoom. [00:26:00] Mm-hmm. This is where the human nature, in my opinion, you know, which is in all of us, including our, our, the children.

So. They were pushing back because they wanted this human interaction and one-to-one interaction. And I was watching, you know, once you know, the things started to open up, they can meet up again by themselves. They were putting their phones, their tablets, whatever aside and talking to each other. And I think this is a human nature.

Yes, we are, even US adults, we are like very addicted to our phones and we, we, we hear like all these uh uh. You know, coaches and mentors that say, Hey, like at least you need like to get some time off your screen and, you know, to, to have a better concentration. I think the same applies for them, but the way I love to do it is to get it in an educational way rather than say, Hey, no, it's not allowed to bring your, your phone with you.

Or like, you have to put it somewhere and then you can pick it up. [00:27:00] So the thing is, I'm more. Leaning towards educating them why they have to put aside rather than just, you know, telling them, no, you can't do it because this is, will, will, will create kind of a rebelling, you know, feeling within them. This is what I watch on other kids.

Mm-hmm. Um, just by own 2 cents on this, but anyway. Yeah. Now back to what you were discussing, um, at, at the beginning, Greg. So. You, uh, did pilots like with learning and uh, uh, Einstein project. What did you learn about, you know, AI's real world impact, especially in, in the high school setting, or what you called in the states, K 12 settings.

Any surprising wins or failures that you have noticed from, from these experiments? 

Greg: Well, the pilot study we were doing was actually what I would say, even, even a fourth kind of iteration of using ai and that that's using AI to train [00:28:00] teachers, um, or, or as a, as a tool for teachers to use. And I think you were kind of raising this question earlier.

Um. So the, the tool was, uh, I guess it would be called in the field, a small language model, because it was really just built around the, uh, what's called the teacher's guide for a particular new science curriculum. So, excuse me, teachers were, um, uh, the teachers in this study were going to a week long training on how to use this new science curriculum, and the tool was something that they could, um.

Ask natural language questions of, in terms of how to, how to use the, the teacher guide, let's say. Um, so the, the, the study isn't out yet, but what the results seem to be saying, uh, is that, um, a number of, number of findings. One is that, um, the more you know, the better you're able to [00:29:00] use the tool. So that, that may speak to, uh, you know, the importance of prompt generation, which, um, you know, you talk about something that should maybe change about education and I think students and teachers could probably use some, some, uh, training right away on, on prompt generation.

So, um, I would put that down. Um, and, and how it came out in this study was that the teachers that had some experience in the curriculum, let's say less than a year. We're able to ask better questions and get better information from the tool. The, the teachers who were brand new who didn't have any background knowledge about the tool or, or about the curriculum or what was in it, um, their questions were much more surface level.

It was really much more like, where do I find the handouts for tomorrow's lesson? Um, and that's understandable in, in a number for a number of reasons, you know? They were focused on very basic implementation. They didn't have a sense of where the curriculum was going. [00:30:00] Um, but it does have implications if we're talking about training teachers in that there's no substitute for experience.

Um, if you have a teacher who has experience, who knows what it is, who knows a bit of the landscape, maybe not well defined, but has a sense of what's out there, they're able to ask much better questions. They're able to get much better information. 

Mehmet: Right now I'm gonna ask you about, um, the market, at least I know you can share maybe probably some statistics or some facts from, from the us So the K 12 market, right?

So how attractive is it currently? You know, just Bailey for, of course, AI powered innovation. But what I want you to highlight to us, Greg, is what do you think we have? Plenty of, and, you know, founders should, should leave that alone, should not like, uh, waste their time. Or developers also, like [00:31:00] we have plenty of products maybe.

And what do you think are the areas that still have a lot of improvement and, you know, they should try to come up with new products, new services maybe, and try to find this, you know, product market fit in, in, in that, uh, space. 

Greg: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, I, I believe the global ed tech market is 200 billion at the moment.

It's projected to be 700 billion by 2033. Um, and, and I think what's helpful for developers to know is if we're talking about, um, say the government education systems, I'll, I'll speak to the United States 'cause that's what I'm familiar with. Sure. Um, it's really all about. Taking problems off of someone's plate.

Um, so at the, at the, the state level, kind of at the top of our, of our system, um, the, the people who are in charge, they don't generally have tech [00:32:00] backgrounds and they're far removed from the classroom, and they just, they, they want, they're gonna want someone who can come in and say that they are, um, taking care of it, that they are taking care of, um.

Ai, uh, education for students that are able to integrate and train their teachers, kind of the whole package. Um, zooming now down to, to the teachers important thing to know about, uh, teachers is that they feel incredibly pressed for time. Uh, there's always so much to pay attention to when they're in the classroom with all of the students, and there's always more to do than there is time to do it.

Um, and so whatever is developed ideally should take things off their plate, uh, off teacher's plates, uh, and. Give them information that they don't currently have or that they don't have the time to get. Um, so I, I mentioned earlier, um, reviewing student work, and this is something that I, I, I believe can already be [00:33:00] done, but, uh, I'm gonna talk about an integration.

So, uh, at the end of many classes, it's a, a, a good practice for teachers to give students. A question or two on what the students were supposed to learn that day as a check for understanding. Um, so let's say we're in a paper and pencil situation. Teacher gives a piece of paper to every student, students write down an answer to the question, uh, and they hand it back in.

Um. Ordinarily the teacher will maybe glance through them if they have time. Um, but if this is a more, say, three or four question response, they may not have time to, uh, go through it. If it's a longer written answer by the student, they may not have time to really, um, break it down, but scanning these into some kind of system that can process them, um, and give the teacher an output of.

Here's the percentage of students that understood this idea. Here's the percentage of students who understood that idea. Um, that would be very [00:34:00] helpful. So that's, that's kind of the first layer, the where you start to get helpful and where you really start to leverage an understanding of, of, of the, the classroom is, okay, connect this now to everything else.

So you have this understanding of what students learned in this classroom. How does that connect to. The teacher's year long lesson plan, so the teacher will have certain learning goals for each day, for the whole year. How does this interact with what the teacher knows about each student's learning plan?

So some students have a specific learning plan that documents challenges that they may have. Um, how does that particular student's response interact with their learning? That's another thing to plug into. Um, how does that response, uh, how do those responses plug into what the teacher is teaching the next day?

Let's say the teacher has a lesson where they're going to be giving a particular handout, again, paper and pencil, to give a handout to, um, to the students. Um, and an LLM can [00:35:00] make a unique handout for each student that builds on what was learned or not learned the prior day. So it's really in those integrations.

So I think to put that all together, I think having a hub where there's information in where this, this hub knows where the teacher's going in terms of, of learning goals overall for the year. Uh, the hub has access to what the teacher's using for learning materials and, um, has access to and permission to, uh, to make modifications.

Based on what the student, based on the student's prior learning, based on kind of what they're demonstrating today. Um, what that's gonna do is that's going to make really smart choices for each individual student without the teacher having to spend all of those hours doing it individually, and the teacher has the products of that.

Can work individually with the student. The teacher has the understanding of the student, the teacher has the understanding of the content, [00:36:00] uh, and the, the teacher can, uh, work with the student or with groups of students or with the whole class of students as it's appropriate, um, to leverage those materials.

It just, it gives the, gives the teacher superpowers. 

Mehmet: Absolutely. Now, um, you mentioned and touched on something, which it's a question we repeated maybe on the show many times about the future of education. Like, will AI replace the teacher, will not replace the teacher? So I believe you know, this personalization and what AI allows the teachers to do, like.

To give them like the super personalized feedbacks about their work. I was reading, um, you know, it's a famous book. It's been since 2018, I believe. AI superpowers. Um, so by, uh, Dr. Kai Foi. Um, I'm gonna read it. I haven't read it. Yeah, so, so it doesn't discuss mainly education, but you know, like he discusses the future [00:37:00] of, of, of humanity, you know, in a post AI world.

And of course, you know, people who are afraid of losing jobs and you know, what humanity would look like, you know, in a, in a, uh, super intelligent, uh, era of, of machines that can do almost everything for us. And the thing that he brought, which I agree with, it's about. You know how AI can give the teachers this ability to really give what we missed our generations and the races before us missed, which is the super personalization.

So they, they put us all, you know, in the same room, uh, assuming that all of us, we have the same ability to grasp new information and then they give us the same exams, assuming that. All of us, we can take the same stress, we can take, uh, the same amount of time to solve things. And unfortunately, also he didn't mention, but this is my thing [00:38:00] also.

Society also put this taboo, like if you're not fast enough to finish on time, you are bad. Right? So here where I'm seeing the AI changing things for the positive, and this is where I believe, you know, um, the human element will stay. So what do you think other aspects would never be outsourced to a machine, Greg.

Greg: I mean, first of all, I just wanna say, I think the way you just characterized it is the best that I've ever heard it. I think, um, it, that that's a really great way to express what I think AI has to offer and what the future of the classroom can look like. So thank you for, for characterizing it that way.

I think you nailed it. Um, so the main reason why I wrote the book, um, and, and what I hope people take away from it is. That the, the, you can think of the classroom as, um, let's say we have a, a [00:39:00] student at the top and we have a teacher as the base of a support, almost like it's a building. And there are three columns that are supporting this build, building with the students like the roof.

Um, the main central column, the biggest column is the interpersonal relationship. The personal exchange is what I call it between the student and the teacher. And that is really just on the human level. Uh, with the student having a sense of what the teacher thinks of them as a learner, as a person, as a member of the community.

Um, and the other two pillars. One is the curriculum, which is what the learning is, and that's what most people think of as the job of the classroom. And it is the main job of the classroom. But it is just one of the three pillars. That's one. We have the, the in the, uh, personal exchange in the middle, and then the third one is the classroom exchange.

Um, in most cases we have students learning in groups, as you said. And also what's going on is that student is [00:40:00] exchanging ideas and information with all of the other students in class. They're learning how to work with other students. They're learning how to collaborate. They're learning how to. Um, approach a student if, if they have a question or if they see that student has a question and they wanna offer help, um, they are sharing ideas and triangulating with the teacher to get a sense of like, well, what is the right answer in this case?

So there's a lot of complex interpersonal, uh, structures being built. There's a lot of learning being built. Um, you know, there's a, a great quote, um. By Vygotsky that I'm gonna paraphrase. It's, uh, learning occurs first on the social plane before it's internalized. Uh, and what that refers to is that in a classroom setting, there are ideas that come out in discussion from the teacher, from the student's, uh, in the student's own mind, maybe even from a textbook.

There are ideas that come out and that are, that are bounced around in the classroom, and at some point in a good classroom. There [00:41:00] will be a consensus about what, what the, the valuable knowledge is about that topic. And once the valuable knowledge about that topic has been identified, that's when students tend to take it in and say, okay, this is something worth learning.

Um, and that's how humans have learned for a long time. It's not just the classroom thing. So to get to your question, um, it's that process that can't be interfered with. It can't be interfered with an ascent in a positive way. Um, there are so many things AI can do to help it and to, to work alongside it without interrupting it, but it's respecting and understanding that process.

Uh, and it's, it's just how we're designed. It's how humans learn. Uh, so understanding that and building around it and building to support it, uh, is I think the most important thing. 

Mehmet: Right now as, uh, you've, you've seen, you know, and in your introduction you mentioned about the clickers and how [00:42:00] things, you know, changed in, in, in, uh, almost 20 years, uh, time.

Are you optimistic about what's coming or are there some aspects that make you, I not say pessimistic, but I would say you look at them with caution. 

Greg: And then is this about the classroom or is this about, um, AI society? Education. 

Mehmet: Education and classroom? Let's put it this way. And of course from technology perspective, 

Greg: um, uh, in terms of the classroom, no, I'm actually very optimistic.

Mm-hmm. Um, I think for, for a number of reasons. I think, um, I think it, it is going to radically change. What is taught in school? Um, I think in, let's say 20 years, hopefully sooner, but in 20 years, I think, uh, kind of what you brought up in the very beginning, what students are learning is gonna be very different than what it is today.

Um, I mean, we may even have, have [00:43:00] different topics, uh, different classes rather than a science class and an English class, et cetera. It may be very different. Um, I also think that, um, you know, the occupations that are available to people are going to change. Um, and I think occupations that have a, a human interacting with a human are going to be more common than human interacting with, let's say a computer.

Because AI can do a lot of that. And so what I think an upshot of that is there's going to be more interest, um. In going into educations. And so I think the, the, uh, let's say the, the caliber of people that are going into education is going to increase, um, because it's going to be rightly seen as a promising career.

And, um, and so I think that teaching is going to get better. Uh, and that in turn is, is going to make the outcomes better. I think. I think we're gonna see a quantum leap in the outcomes in terms of mm-hmm. What students are [00:44:00] able to learn by the time they're 18. Which is, which is great because I think that, um, you know, where we're going from here, we're gonna need to really understand so much more about the world.

We need to get a more solid cognitive understanding earlier in our, in our development. 

Mehmet: Great. Uh, Greg, if, as we are coming almost to an end, if you want to leave, you know, founders, especially in that space, in the ed tech for the K 12 with one advice, what that would be. And of course where they can get in touch with you.

Greg: Um, so that one piece of advice is, uh, don't try to put any, anything, any tech, uh, between the teacher and the student. Uh, it's not helpful. Um, and, and by that I mean between the personal exchange, between the, the student and the teacher. It's that trust between the teacher and the student. That is the foundation of, of teaching and learning.

And [00:45:00] if there's not trust between teachers and students, then learning isn't going to happen. The whole process shuts down. So don't put anything in the way that can interrupt that. I don't know that there's anything that can be done to improve it. Um, uh, but, uh, try, but don't interrupt it. Um, and in terms of getting in touch with me, I've got a substack, uh, it's also called aligned.

Um. So you can find me there. That's a great, great way to interact around the material. Um, I, I took a pause on it to write the book, um, but I, I, I'll return it to it another time or some time. Uh, and that's a great way to connect. 

Mehmet: Great. Again, um, you know, I'll make sure that I'll put the link for the Substack, uh, in the show notes so people can, you know, subscribe and read and, uh, maybe get in touch with you, Greg.

Uh, I think we touched, you know, a lot of, uh, important, um, topics related to, to education, especially in high school or as it's called K 12 in, in, in the [00:46:00] us and you know, the. Effect of technology and the future of, of that education. So we brought very, very good, uh, you know, uh, thoughts, I would say both for educators and for people working on products, uh, for that sector specifically.

So thank you very much Greg for, uh, being here with me today. And as I said, the links will be in the show notes and this is how usually I add my episode. This is for the audience. If you just discovered us by luck, thank you for passing by. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, so please give me a favor, subscribe, share it with your friends and colleagues.

We're trying to make an impact so as much as we can reach more people, the better it becomes. And if you are one of the people who keep coming again and again, thank you very much for your support, for all the messages you send me for your, uh, loyalty also as well. You are doing great job for me because without you, I couldn't.

Have the podcast ranking in the top 200 charts in multiple countries in the [00:47:00] entrepreneurship category in Apple Podcast. And again, the big thank you goes to all my guests, including you, Greg, also as well, because you are part of this and I couldn't do anything without that, right? So again, as I say, always stay tuned for a new episode very soon.

Thank you. Bye-bye.