#509 Leading Through Chaos: Rob Kalwarowsky’s Lessons for Founders and Tech leaders

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Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to a episode of the CTO Show with Mehmet today. I'm very pleased joining me, Rob Kalwarowsky. Uh, Rob, the way I love to do it is I keep it to my guests to introduce themselves and tell us more about, you know, your background, your journey, what you're currently up to, [00:01:00] just as a, a kind of teaser for the audience.

We're gonna talk about, you know, leadership. We're gonna talk about, you know, CEOs in special, uh, in special, uh, case. And, uh, you know how Rob is helping. Uh, I'm getting better results. So, Rob, the floor is yours. 

Rob: Yeah, so thanks for having me, me meme. Um, I'm Rob Kalwarowsky. I'm an executive coach. I'm an author of my book, which is out right now, capitalizing on Chaos and a TEDx speaker.

I, as Ette mentioned, I coach also CTOs and entrepreneurs on. How they can scale their businesses and get better results. And so for me, that all starts with getting in tune with our own psychology and then building that into the process of scaling. And so [00:02:00] we'll talk more about this throughout the show, but especially now where.

Chaos is everywhere in our political system, in our economy, in technology, things are changing every day. It's really important for us as business owners and entrepreneurs and CTOs to be able to navigate this time. Not just trying to survive, but actually capitalizing on this moment because that's when you're gonna take ground from your competition.

So we'll talk a bit more about that, that in the show. 

Mehmet: Absolutely, absolutely Rob. Now, um, something I ask always my guests, you know, and, and I'm sure like you have spotted a lot of, I would say, challenges, obstacles, uh, maybe, uh, some. Common mistakes also that uh, uh, CEOs, they do that you [00:03:00] decided like, okay, there's something, there's a gap.

I need to step in and I need to start this. Like, what was the moment where you found like, you need really to start this Rob? Like how this all started? 

Rob: Yes. So I'm an, I'm an MIT engineer. I'm an engineer just like you and I worked, I worked 10 years in, in industry as an engineer. And throughout that path, I encountered a lot of toxic leaders.

And actually in my first job, I had one that was so bad that it caused me depression. And ultimately in 2013, I tried to take my own life. And what I learned on that path was that. I was this, I was raised to be a robot. And I think a lot of the folks who are engineers who are listening to this, you'll understand this, right, is our parents [00:04:00] tell us do well in school.

So we do well in school. Our parents, you know, we learn to just work harder. We learn to just push through and solve problems. We learn to do whatever it takes to win. And that was me. And even, and the way it worked out was like I literally tried to take my own life on a Sunday and Monday morning I went to work and I didn't know how to choose.

I didn't know how to step out and make a different decision at that moment. And it took me years. And eventually in therapy, I came in and I was like, I need a win so bad. I need it like oxygen. And as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, it was like I needed someone to buy one of my products. And then the next thing I said to my therapist was, if I was Jeff Bezos right now, I wouldn't feel any better.[00:05:00] 

And that was the moment where I realized. That my own psychology was killing me and that I refused to become a robot any longer. And that's when I chose to start being human. And that's actually a, a tip that I have for folks is I say I'm human and. I say it in these moments where I'm falling into these mindsets of, well, I just need another sale.

I just need another win. I just need another achievement. Because for me, I'm human. Opens the door for compassion, for clarity, for confidence, and for navigating these moments of chaos where we feel like the world's imploding around us. And so I just. I want to give that to folks as a tool is, of course, it's not gonna solve all your, all the issues, but it's just a [00:06:00] way to like ease into the issue.

And then that's when you can, you know, call an advisor, call your friend, talk to your team, talk to your partner, talk to your kids. Like get out of that moment so then you can start to find how do we solve the problem. 

Mehmet: That's, that's, you know, uh, an inspiring story. I would say, uh, Rob, for, for the folks also out there, um.

And you mentioned a couple of things you know about people who sometimes get, get forced into things. Um, maybe they don't feel comfortable doing it, but they feel, you know, like, yeah, like this is what people told us to do. Like, uh, um, and then they stay in this dilemma. I think the lucky ones, I'm, I'm hoping this is why I do the show, to get people like yourself who also somehow lived it and, you know, um.

Pass through it to inspire others to get out of this. Right. So, [00:07:00] uh, it's, I tell people it's not a destiny, you know, like you can, you can just change this and, and, and go out and, you know, do better. I would say now if you want to get closer to working specifically with the C-Suites, right? Um. And you talk about cows.

So first thing I want to understand, what do you mean by this cows, rob? Like what kind of cows is it like lack of organization? Is it like they have many things on their plate? What we mean and then, you know, based on that, we can build the, the, the conversation. 

Rob: Absolutely. So, so chaos is uncertainty and we see it everywhere now, right?

Like it can be chaos internally in our own minds. Like let's say, um, you know, we're having problems with our husband or wife, let's say, you know, our kids are having trouble at school, or they're sick. We start feeling it internally, but it's also in our businesses, [00:08:00] right? So, you know, like maybe our biggest customer is upset or, um, maybe because of the stock market.

Like now we thought we were gonna raise this much money, or we thought we were gonna get this valuation and we're not getting that. And even like a lot of companies this year. Especially in Q1, they refused to give guidance on where their, where they thought their company was gonna go because there was so much uncertainty built through the US government.

And I think it's all of that together. And whether you're an entrepreneur, whether you're a C-Suite at a Fortune 500 company, or whether you're just an individual contributor who works at a company. Chaos is all around us with whether it's within our own minds or whether it's around us. 

Mehmet: Right. So we understood the problem, Rob.

Now, let's imagine I'm an entrepreneur or [00:09:00] maybe I'm, I'm ac uh, level, uh, executive in a company and I come with you with all these issues on my plate. So walk me through the stages. Uh, you know that you and me, we gonna work together and face by face how I gonna. Come out of this couch. Right. And, and go to the better visibility, you know, better resiliency also as well.

So what's, what's, what's my journey looks like. 

Rob: Absolutely. And so this is where we have to be very honest with ourselves and, and I think this is hard for us as engineers because, you know, we're raised to. Just find an answer. Were raised to not ask for help. It was something I struggled with for a long time.

Was, was I just wanted to, I would figure it out myself. Right? And I think this is another [00:10:00] reason why I like folks to start using, I'm human because. You are human. And then if you're human you can also ask for support. And right now what I'm seeing a lot from my entrepreneurs and from my clients is we just feel overwhelmed.

Like we don't, there's so much work to do. There's so much, you know, clients is, it's really incredibly hard to get clients right now. It's really incredibly hard to get revenue and you know, even raise money. And so it's. There's so much pressure and the first step is really, you know, reaching out for help.

And you're welcome to, you know, I'll put my website and my LinkedIn podcast notes and I would love to Sure to help you. Um, but once folks come to me, the first step for me is defining like, what's the goal? And so is it you wanna scale your company as an entrepreneur? Is it that [00:11:00] you want to be a better leader if you're a CTO or you want to do a digital transformation or you want to drive a project through?

This is very simple, right? And then the other step of this is where are you today? Right? This is just a standard gap analysis that we've done as engineers on every problem that allows us to tap into motivation. Because change, as everybody knows, it's not easy, but having the motivation. Is the way that you are gonna start doing the work.

And that motivation can also be things like, I wanna spend more time with my family. I want to be able to put my phone down at the end of the day and not worry that my company's burning down. The next step is to work internally, because often what uncertainty does for us is it puts us in a state of stress or fear.

We can't think in that [00:12:00] state. There's a thing called the amygdala hijack, which is where our brain puts us into fight or flight, and we actually cannot prob, we lose the executive functioning of our brain, so we can't problem solve, we can't innovate. We don't have a bigger perspective like all those things happen, and really it turns us into a bunch of destructive or bad bosses.

Um, but we find those, we work with that inner psychology in order to release those fears. Unburden that stress. And then the final step or the final two steps, right, is now we start to build out the foundation of who you are as a person and a leader that's outside of just your role and your job or your company.

And so we look at things like, when are you at your best? What are your special skill sets that you bring that other folks don't? [00:13:00] What are your values? What do you want most? And then the final step is really how do we show up in the world as this new leader? And so, um, that's how I like to take my clients through that process.

And like an example for you is, last year I worked with a, a company and the founder was running a, a $3 million business. They came to me in March, 2024 and we worked together for six months. And his $3 million business had been stuck there for three years. And we worked through this process. And this year they're gonna do $15 million in business.

Mehmet: Wow. That's, you know, really, really cool. Now, from personality to personality, I would say Rob, like, uh, have you seen difference on how long that journey would take, uh, each of your clients to, [00:14:00] uh, to start seeing results? Because I know also. When you are overwhelmed with many things, so as humans, we tend to try to get shortcuts.

Sometimes we want to see, uh, results faster. Uh, how, how do you manage, you know, this, uh, urgency that of course. This is why I came to you, right? Because I'm, I'm feeling, you know, I can't handle it anymore. I need a coach to guide me. But at the same time, you know, like, yeah, I want to see the results now, like tomorrow.

So how do you handle, you know, these different, um, I would say personalities and, you know, just, it's the kind of, um, because you have to deal with a lot of, of characters also as well. So how, how does that look like? 

Rob: So first off, I am that guy too. 

Mehmet: Yeah. 

Rob: Right. And, and then I think, I think a lot of folks, I mean, if you are an entrepreneur, if you're a business owner, if you are a high [00:15:00] level executive, like that's, that's the reality of what you need to deal with now.

Right. You need results now. Not yesterday now. Right. And the, the biggest thing, and, and like I've had. A bunch of folks get a significant breakthrough in session one, but also sometimes it takes longer. It really, what really depends on is what it, what are you coming in the door with and what are the, like how open are you to change and how open are you to do the work?

And so the work isn't just the, you know, our one-on-one session, right? It's also like I give folks in general a roughly four to five minute exercise to do every day, and then sometimes there's some leadership [00:16:00] activities or things that are outside that. Like how do we scale a company? What does our future look like?

How should we be hiring? Should we be slowing down? Like questions like that to take to their teams. Um, and so the work really matters. Um, but yeah, we can typically see some pretty good results in three to six months. 

Mehmet: Okay. Yeah, that of course, like this is, uh, yeah, I'm that guy too, by the way. So now I want to ask you a little bit about the book.

So, so, so the book is coming, you know, in the same week now, uh, we, we, we. Uh, like publishing this episode, tell me more about the book. Like what was the idea behind it? Um, what we can expect out of it and, uh, uh, you know, uh, anything that's special that you want to share Also about the book itself. 

Rob: So the, the book breaks down the [00:17:00] process, and so when I mention that chaos puts us in a state of stress and we become.

Destructive leaders. This book actually breaks down the six different types of destructive leaders according to a research paper that was published in 2021 and. If we start looking at those, we all contain all of these six destructive leaders between with within us. And there actually is a part there like that is the results first person I have that I mentioned it, right?

And for me. Why I was struggling with depression was I was in an environment where I felt like I needed to achieve and to win, and I was saving my company tens of millions of dollars, but the environment was where my manager at the time was threatened by that, and so I [00:18:00] couldn't actually. Win. Mm-hmm. And that was really somewhere where I had to look inwards and I didn't know how to do that.

Right. And so that's where I teach folks, is how do we work with those parts and actually unlock our. Leadership self. And that's what allowed me to go from, you know, a corporate engineer to now I'm doing a, like, I've done a TED Talk that's 300,000 views. I've written a book. We, I moved from Northern Canada to Costa Rica.

I've gotten married. Like all of these things are because of this internal work that once we do that, then our possibilities of how we want to scale and impact the world just just open up immensely. 

Mehmet: One thing, Rob, which came to my mind honestly now, so. [00:19:00] In some management schools, right? So they tell you you need some time to be tough.

You need to like, you just need to let, uh, people who are working with you like you're a serious guy. Like, you know, like you, you can't, uh, um, like. I would say do something that people would think you are weak and at the same time when it comes to the empathy and you know, showing that, yeah, I understand, you know, my team and you know how I should listen to them.

I've seen people sometimes who are really. They are good people, right? So they have the empathy, they have everything. But for some odd reasons, you know, maybe from people who are around them, I don't know, maybe it's a culture thing. Whereas I say, you know what? Like if I show myself I'm very much a good, you know, boss.

It gonna fire back on me and people [00:20:00] gonna like leverage me and they're gonna think that, you know what I mean? Right. So what is the balance here of being really, you know, good boss, but at the same time, like, don't tolerate everything and, you know, like, uh, handle crisis when really you have to take actions.

Although maybe some of the people will think that, oh, like you're tough. Like you, you, you're not a good boss. So what is the limit here? What is the edge? 

Rob: So empathy is not allowing mediocre performance. These things are a misnomer, right? And this is something that a lot of people misunderstand, especially with this trend towards empathetic leadership.

Or even sometimes people think psychological safety means that we don't really talk honestly to each other, but. If I truly care about you meme, I want you [00:21:00] to be in a position where you are happy, where you're performing really well, and you're on the path to becoming whatever it is you want to become.

Whether, you know, if we're working in a big tech company and your dream is to start your own business and you know, launch a unicorn. Then really it's my role as a, as a leader to give you the skills in order for you to be able to do that in three to five years or some, some time range, right? And so if you're not performing well, it's my job.

If I care about you and I'm truly empathetic, it's my job to make sure, to coach you, to get you to improve. Right. The other side of this is if you're not in the right role, if you're not able to do the job that I'm asking for, it's [00:22:00] also empathetic and caring to actually either move the person internally to another job.

Or to let them go. And this doesn't mean you just say, Hey, you're fired, right? You can help somebody get another job. You can talk to your contacts, you can give them a reference. Like these things are all open for possibility, but if we just allow folks to be mediocre. We think that's empathetic. It's actually not.

It's actually you are showing that you don't care about them because you're not challenging them to grow, which is what everybody wants. Like ultimately, we all want to be good at our roles. We want to be recognized as being good. And so as leaders, we need to open up this path for folks to be at their best.

Mehmet: Now one thing here, Rob, uh, which is maybe somehow related to this. [00:23:00] How much also you think being an authentic leader? An authentic person plays a role here because, you know, sometimes people try to act different than they are. And here actually where I've seen it myself from my own. Experience and the whole problem starts from that point where someone decided like he's, he's not, he's not the person I know, right?

I know this for a fact 'cause I knew him before. Uh, so how much authenticity and keeping who you are in an authentic way plays a role also in, in having like this better leadership and which is of course will be reflected to be better, uh, results for the company as well. 

Rob: Yes, and this is where we work through in psychology of those six destructive leadership parts.

Once we get, once we're able to allow [00:24:00] them to step to the side, that's when we can start digging into who you truly are as a leader. This doesn't mean, and I'm not saying that, it's like, let's say you're an entrepreneur and your biggest client just walked out the door and you're talking to your investors.

I'm not saying you're going to tell them, Hey, like, I don't know what I'm gonna do because our biggest client left. We have no more good clients. I don't know who I'm gonna call to sell a company. Like, you know, I, I'm lost. Right. It's all context, right? If you have that, you want to call me, you don't want to tell that to your investors, right?

Mehmet: Right. 

Rob: However, it's also not lying, right? It's, you're not gonna stand up in front of your investors and go, don't worry. You know, we have all these clients that are gonna pay us even though we don't. [00:25:00] Right? Or like lying to your team about results, right? So. We wanna show up in a way that's authentic.

However, this doesn't mean that we share everything, right? And it also doesn't mean like some folks, they say, Hey, well authentically, you know, I'm going to, I'm gonna be an asshole 'cause that's who I am. It's not actually who you are. It's a part of you that when you're in a moment where you're feeling stress, that can come in and you will think you're that person.

I've had those moments. You've had those moments. Almost anyone who's driven down the road and gotten cut off by a car, you've had those moments too. Right? But it's, it's really truly being you. I. With with the context of you don't wanna be o super open and vulnerable because there are folks in the world who can take [00:26:00] advantage of that, or it will negatively impact your, your deliverables.

Mehmet: Got you, got you. Uh, Rob, Rob, where people can, um, you know, get in touch with you and, uh, you know, get to know more and of course, get their hands on the book as well. 

Rob: Yeah, absolutely. So my website, rob  Kalwarowsky.com. You can find out more there. The book will be, if you just go to the tab, capitalizing on chaos, you can buy the book there and then also on that website.

There's going to be an assessment for you all to take where you can understand and learn what six, well, which ones of the six destructive box types are within you or most dominant. And that'll help you start to identify that path of self-awareness. And then yeah, of course on the website you can book a session with me.

Um, you can hire me to [00:27:00] speak, you can hire me to do executive coaching for yourself or your team. I'm all, I'm all there.

Mehmet: Great. Thank, thank you very much, Rob. I will. And, uh, I will make sure also that I'm gonna put the, the links, uh, in, in, in the show note. And really I appreciate the time today. Uh, Rob, you shared, you know, your experience in an authentic way and you shared, you know, some of, of the. Things that you have learned yourself and you know, the way you, you help people, uh, in getting that.

So I really appreciate, uh, appreciate, you know, you being here with me today. And, uh, for the folks, you'll find all the links, the, the, also the book, uh, which came out this week itself, so you can, uh. You know, uh, go and, uh, grab a copy of it. And, uh, also if, if you want to, to get in touch with, uh, with Rob, as I said, all the links will be there.

So Rob, really appreciate your time with me here today. And this is for the folks. This is how usually I add my episodes. So if, if you just discovered this podcast by luck, thank you for passing. Bye. Uh, I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, so give me a [00:28:00] small favor, like, subscribe and share it with your friends and colleagues.

And if you are one of the people who keeps coming again and again. Thank you very much for your support. Thank you for all what you're doing to the show. And, uh, thank you for everything you know you're doing by getting us on the top 200 charts across multiple countries in the Apple Podcast. So thank you very much, and as I say, always tune in for a new episode very soon.

Thank you. Bye-bye.