#500 The Recruiter’s VC Mindset: Betting on Startups and People with Justin Dixon

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Mehmet Gonullu: Hello and welcome back to a new episode, episode of the CTO Show with Mehmet today. I'm very pleased joining me from the US Justin Dixon. Justin, thank you very much for being here with me today. Uh, I really appreciate your time. The way I love to do it is I keep it to my guests. Introduce [00:01:00] yourself. So a little bit more about, you know, you, your journey, what you're currently up to, just as a.

You know, kind of teaser for the audience. We're gonna talk about a lot of topics today about hiring, especially for startups and PE firms. We're gonna talk a little bit about the AI role here and some other topics as well related to the mindset and financial freedom. So just without Fordo, the floor is yours.

Justin: Yeah, no, thank you for, uh, having me on. It's great to, to be here. Um, there's a lot to, to cover it, it sounds like. Um, but just a little bit about me. Uh, I grew up in a small town in Pennsylvania. Um, and after college I kind of fell into the whole recruiting world. I didn't really know that that was a career path or.

A job that was out there and I haven't fallen, fallen out of it. So I've been doing recruiting for, uh, companies both, uh, internally and as an agency for over 18 years, which is kind of scary to say that I've been doing it for, for that long. Um. But I, I started my own recruiting firm, hire tomorrow, back in January of 2020.

Uh, [00:02:00] I quit a very stable head of recruitment job for a wealth management firm in Philadelphia, uh, right before COVID was really starting. And so starting a. Recruiting business, uh, right as, uh, COVID Pandemic was starting in January of 2020, was not, not the right time to start. Not perfect timing, uh, because nobody was really hiring, uh, throughout most of 2020.

Um, but the benefit of that was my wife ended up getting a job in Austin, Texas, which is where we live now, um, with a cybersecurity startup. So during COVID we moved down here to Austin. Um, and that got me plugged into the kind of private equity and startup. World, uh, both here and throughout the us so.

Primarily from a, a recruitment standpoint. I recruit for, uh, I get brought in by the private equity firm typically right around the, the acquisition point. Uh, and I help them kind of plug any C-level holes, uh, in the company they just acquired. Uh, and then I will kind of stay with that company. Um.

Throughout their journey and help them hire any [00:03:00] kind of key roles that they need, whether they're leadership or individual contributor. So, um, there's a lot to unpack from that. But yeah, it's been a lot of fun to kind of just get to see, you know, the startup world, both from the private equity firm side and just kind of from the, the portfolio, just the actual company side.

It's been a lot of fun. 

Mehmet Gonullu: Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, thank you for being here again. Uh, Justin. So just quickly, um, you mentioned about, you know, shifting from head of recruiting to founder. So what was kind of the hardest mindset shift that you had to make? Like, okay, I'm, I'm also the, the, the, the founder, I'm, I'm myself, an entrepreneur.

So how this, uh, affected, you know, your way of thinking? 

Justin: Yeah, I would say it. It was probably a two year journey. Um, so I was, like I said, I was kind of growing up in a small town. Um, and so my financial. Learnings and kind of teaching was really just gonna get a good job, invest in your [00:04:00] 401k and you know, hope you've got enough money to retire, uh, to retire at, you know, 65 or 70, whatever the, the, the age was.

And so I was on that path. And then I read a book called Rich Dad Poor Dad. And that book effectively flipped a light bulb in my brain to say, wow, there's a new, a different way to live your life. You don't have to punch a clock every day. You don't have to, you know, help somebody else build a great business.

You can go out and invest in your own business that you start, you can invest in other businesses, you can invest in real estate, uh, with this whole idea of this kind of passive income kind of mindset. So, um, I shared the book with my wife and, and I was kind of nervous that she may not feel the same.

Instant kind of light bulb as I did. Um, but luckily she did. And, and kind of we, we sat down, um, in kind of 20 17, 18 and really said, okay, what are we gonna do? How are we gonna do this? Um, we ended up buying, uh, an investment property, uh, in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, which is the opposite side of, of Pennsylvania.

Um, so we had a little passive income and kind of got the, the juices [00:05:00] flowing and then. I got recruited to be the head of recruitment for a wealth management firm. Um, and I, I asked 'em, I said, Hey, I've got this little LLC that I'd started a few years ago, um, to do some side recruiting, and I'd like to still do that.

They were fine with it. Um, and so I ended up kind of just organically building the business on the side during my, my year plus with that wealth management firm. All with the hope that, you know, at some point in the near future, uh, I didn't really think it was gonna be a year, but you know, that I would jump out and have my own, my own firm, um, and then be able to not only, you know, build a recruiting business, but also spend time investing in, in commercial real estate, investing in startups.

And so that's what I did in January of 2020. Uh, I took the plunge. Um, but leading up to that point, really in 2019, my wife and I made a very kind of joint. Kind of, um, task or or joint kind of agreement that we were gonna downgrade our lifestyle, kind of condense our expenses [00:06:00] as much as we possibly could.

For the, for me to kind of take the jump because we are both very risk averse people and so I'm not the type of person that's just like, Hey, I'm gonna jump and then I'll build the plane or the parachute, you know, as I'm flying down, you know, through the air, I'm gonna, I'm the person that needs to build the foundation.

And kind of have a little bit of, uh, of security before, you know, you'd take the leap to be an entrepreneur. And so we downgraded our lifestyle. We moved in a small apartment. We had the investment property in Pittsburgh. We owned a condo in Philadelphia. We ended up renting that out. So we had two in, you know, investment streams or income streams coming in.

Um, and then all of our expenses were essentially covered by my wife's salary. So even if I made $0. The first year of business, um, I, we wouldn't have to dip into savings. We could essentially just live our lives and, and go from there. Um, little did we know that COVID was gonna start in 2020 and, and obviously the rest is history.

But, um, so from a mindset perspective, we really kind of made a, a, a joint effort to make sure we're both mentally [00:07:00] prepared. 'cause not only is the entrepreneur, you know, they've gotta be mentally prepared to kind of be the. Wake up every day and motivate yourself to, you know, pick up the phone and cold call people or do whatever your business development activity is.

But also if you're married or you've got, you know, a girlfriend or boyfriend, whatever the, the case is, you've got somebody else that's, that's a partner. Maybe they're not a partner in the business, but they're a partner in life. They're also, they've got some stress because my wife was essentially carrying the burden to pay all of our bills.

Right. And so, you know, mm-hmm. Um, so it was a very kind of interesting dynamic. And then COVID hit, and then obviously, you know, we had a, a lot of. You know, conversations around like, wow, this may not have been the best, best move, and, you know, all that fun stuff, which, you know, COVID was bad for everybody.

Um, not just, not just myself. Um, but yeah, it was a, it was a journey. It wasn't a day, it wasn't like I decided to quit on a Friday and, and did on a Monday. And, uh, it was definitely a process to get from, you know, I'm gonna quit my job to, to then quitting. 

Mehmet Gonullu: Absolutely. And, uh, it [00:08:00] resonates also with the way I decided also to, to go on, uh, like kind of similar journey.

And as you said, it's a process. It's not like just you click something and then it happens. Now, let's like little bit go more deep in, in the hiring business that you are in now, Justin. Mm-hmm. I know you have like two, I would say main, um. Set of customers you serve. So the startups and the private equity firms.

Let's start with the private equity. 'cause I think I didn't, you know, uh, discuss it much. So private equity is for people who doesn't know our companies, who mainly they invest in, like, I would say established businesses usually. Um, and sometimes in startup, rarely. Right. But, um, this is, they are investment firms.

Yeah. Now, so. What kind of, I would say talents usually they would look for, of course, like there are like the hardcore talents. They need to be good in finance and accountings and all this, but what are like some of the other [00:09:00] aspect that they look in when then they want to hire someone, especially for kind of a senior role?

Justin: Yeah, so I would say the. Working with a private equity firm, a lot of the hiring I did was really, they brought me in to help their portfolio company. So I've only filled a handful of positions for the actual private equity group. But effectively, you know, when hiring those folks, uh, like I was helping, uh, one of the private equity firms that I did a lot of work with, hire, um, a senior associate.

So somebody that is actively. Sourcing deals. So these are people that are engaging and interacting with investment bankers, business owners. They're doing the kind of initial due diligence on the business that they may acquire. So they are, you know, typically earlier career in their career. They are, to your point, they understand finance, they understand how to.

Evaluate the different financial, um, reports from a company. They do a ton of research on the industries that they are [00:10:00] jumping into. One of the, the industries I was heavily, that they were heavily involved in was cybersecurity. Um, so they were doing a lot of investment in cybersecurity firms, so they need to know.

What the competitive landscape looks like. Uh, they need to know who the big players are because not only are private equity firms, investors in companies, they're also sellers of companies, right? So they get into these businesses with the intention of holding that business, improving that business over their whole period, which is typically, uh, you know, with three to 5-year-old period, and then ultimately having an exit, right?

So. Even when they're going into an acquisition, they are always thinking about what's their exit. And typically some private equity firms take companies public. Some, you know, most of them are very much focused on, okay, we're gonna buy this business. And then we're gonna sell it to a larger private equity firm to go from, call it a 20 million a RR mark, to 50 to a hundred, um, and, and on and on and on.

And so, or they get bought by another big company, like a strategic acquisition comes in. So these folks are [00:11:00] very smart, very well educated. Um, and you know, it, it is a very competitive industry to get into. It's not an industry that, um, you can kind of just fall into. Typically. Uh, you've gotta go to a, a decent, if not really good school.

A lot of 'em have, um, you know. Graduate degrees or some other certification, um, outside of just your normal bachelor's degree. So, um, very competitive, but you can make a ton of money if you get into the private, the right private equity firm. Um, and it's a really cool opportunity to not only work for a, a private equity company, but then you get to also interact with all the other portfolio companies that, that your company acquires.

And if you are on the, the front end of that, and you're the person that identified that business as an opportunity to acquire. That's a, that's a feather in your cap and, and it's a really cool opportunity. So, but the bulk of the hiring that I did for the private equity firms was essentially, um, helping them identify talent, especially c-level talent.

Whether it's CEOs, most, [00:12:00] most private equity firms are gonna replace or add a CFO post acquisition. So, uh, a lot of times the, the acquired company does not have. A massively robust fp and a group financial planning and analysis group. Um, they mainly have like a bookkeeper, a controller that's really focused on the, the blocking and tackling accounting.

But when you get in, brought in, you get bought by an investment company, they are looking into the future. So yes, you need your accounting people that are looking and, and, and doing the books, but then you need the fp and a That's really forecasting. Okay. If we're a a SaaS business, we're an ARR driven business.

If we increase our sales team, if we invested this amount of money into hiring the right people, what's our projected a RR number? What's our projected burn rate? You know, so they're doing a lot of forecasting. Um, so a lot of the positions that I hire are typically CFOs. Um, I placed a CEO at a company, which was a lot of funds, so, you know, they had a transition and, and needed a new CEO.

Um, but I've filled kind of everything across the [00:13:00] board when it comes to, to startups, uh, especially tech-focused startups. 

Mehmet Gonullu: Yeah, this is very common, even like in the VC space also as well. So one of the main skills that VCs, I mean the partners they should know is also like get people like yourself, Justin, to be able to place right people in the startups that they have backed up and you know, whether it's bringing in new CEO.

Sometimes after a round, maybe a major round that they have done. So this is crucial because at the end of the day, you need to add value with, uh, you know, with the team that, that you are backing up and, you know, hiring is, is one of the main thing that startups are always, you know, looking for. Now when I was preparing, I've seen something like you, you help startups compete against Fortune 500.

Uh, for talent, um, what makes, you know, a startup really looks appealing for the other side to say, you know, Justin, yeah. They are a startup. They are new, but I gotta take [00:14:00] their offer and not, let's say this big company's offer. So what are like some of the, uh, characteristics, I would say, of that startup so they can be attractive for such, uh, talent?

Justin: I, I think startups have, um. A, a sex appeal that big companies do, but not to the extent that a startup does. But there's also perceived higher risk for a startup. Um, I've worked for Fortune 30 companies. I've worked for very early stage companies as a corporate employee, and obviously I support a lot of very early stage companies now, uh, with my, my agency.

Um. I think why a startup is, is kind of attractive to somebody, maybe that is at a fortune company, is because Fortune 500 and very large organizations move very slowly or pivot very slowly. And so if you're in an environment and you want to go work for a company that you will have a lot more direct impact on, even at, if you're a more junior employee, [00:15:00] a startup is the best place to go because you're gonna be able to, you know, you only have maybe two or three different people above you to the CEO or the founder.

And so you have a lot of more, um, senior interaction. Your, your input is listened to by more and more people. When you're in a big company, you know, like a Dell or a Comcast or a Facebook, you know, you're. Miles away from the Zuckerbergs of the world and have very little day-to-day input in, in kind of the, the scale and the move, um, or the, the growth of a company like a Facebook or, or any of these big companies.

And so if you really wanna have an impact, I think a startup is a great opportunity. The other thing is if you go into a startup. Versus a big company. Typically, if you're in a big company, you are siloed into your job. So if you are an accountant, you are only working on maybe one product line within, you know, a large organization.

If you're a software engineer, you're working on one specific product, whereas if you're in a startup and you're a software engineer, or you're a product person, or you're a market. You are typically working across the entire portfolio, or you're helping [00:16:00] to build something new or help expand their current product.

So you typically get to wear more hats, which gives you a lot more flexibility in what you do next. So, you know, I'll use my wife as, as an example. So she was an HR person at a startup. She then moved into because the startup was growing and they needed more support, she moved into a VP of operations role.

So she owned hr, she owned it. She's not a technical person, but she managed technical people. Um, and then now she's now their head of customer success, which they did not have a customer success department. She was a good employee. She's very, very smart, way smarter than I am. Um, and so she was like, her CEO said, Hey, we need you to build this.

And so she raised her hand and said, I'll build it. And, and they gave her the keys and, and now she's building it. So you, she would not have. Or I would say not more likely than not, she would not have that opportunity to go from HR to ops to leading customer success in a big company, especially in [00:17:00] a two year time period.

Right. So, um, I think this is also important for a lot of younger folks that are just getting into their careers. If you can get into a startup, you may get in as a recruiter, you may get in as hr, you may get in as a salesperson, but if you really don't know what you want to do. In your life, right? You, this is a great opportunity to get in and say, Hey, I, I'm a salesperson, but I also like product.

Or maybe I'm really good at design. And so you want to become more of a marketer or a designer. Um, you're gonna have a lot more opportunity to flex those different muscles and try different things in a startup and maybe you would in, in a much bigger company. So what I, my job is to, when I'm working with these small companies.

Whether you're a startup or, or you're just a small business, is trying to share that story with potential candidates. Because you know, big companies have a big budget and they have a big brand, and so if a job opens at a Facebook or a Dell or a Comcast or whatever. You know, people know that those what, what those companies are.

Whereas if you're a [00:18:00] small business, they don't know who you are. So I have to almost be your salesperson to go out and virtually tap people on the shoulder, whether they're in my own network or on LinkedIn or whatever, and say, Hey, uh, you know, I've got a company that you may be really interested in that could really benefit from your experience.

Um, and if you're interested, would love to, you know, have you introduce or interview with them. So it's a big task for me to kind of go out and, and generate kind of the buzz. Um, but that's what recruiter really good recruiters are, are there to do. 

Mehmet Gonullu: Absolutely. And it's, uh, to your point, very, um, like, uh, from every aspect, like it brings the freedom, it's bring the flexibility, uh, it's very rewarding.

It's very, very rewarding now. But of course. We know Justin, like not all startups are created equally and for sure, like sometimes you would need to from your side as well to spot like, okay, this is a good startup and I believe you would be acting similar [00:19:00] way, like. An investor would be like looking at a startup, evaluating them, but of course from a different angle for you.

So what are like some of the, I would say checklists or let's say like startup readiness, I don't know, like kind of check boxes that you have and you say, you know, like this is the kind of startups I can take it to people. As you were saying, reach out to, into your network on LinkedIn to tell them, Hey, like this is a good startup to join.

So what are like kind of your criteria? 

Justin: Yeah, I would say first and foremost just who the backers are, who their investors are. So that doesn't necessarily mean they have to be this big private equity group, buthuh, especially if there's private equity groups that I've supported in the past. Um, and also if that private equity group has a ton of experience in that industry.

So I'm helping a property technology company. This is the first time that I've worked with them. I've known them in the past, like I know who they are and I know that they've had a lot of success in prop tech investments. So [00:20:00] getting to know the, the private equity group is helpful because if they have success, if they've had a track record of success in that niche or in that industry.

Not a perfect predictor of future success, but a, a more leading indicator, uh, as opposed to a, a newer private equity firm or newer investment company that is maybe pivoting into a new industry or maybe they're newer in their just lifecycle. Um, so for me, I like to know who the backers are. I like to know who's, who's investing and also.

A little bit about the runway and why they invested, right? Because if I can understand why they're investing their hard-earned money and also their investors' money into this business, well, it makes me feel a little bit better to then, you know, go out to candidates and say, Hey, I've got this company. And, you know, all startups are at risk, not all startups, uh, succeed.

Um. But, uh, so that's my first kind of checkbox. And then, you know, getting to know some of the, the, the hiring, hiring teams, hiring managers that I work with is also very important. Um. I've really [00:21:00] not found a hiring manager in a startup that I didn't enjoy working with. Uh, I can't say that same thing for hiring managers that I've worked with in big companies.

I think some startups you have to be a bit more gritty and you have to. Be open to giving people a chance. Whereas if you're in a big company, you're really trying to fit a square peg in a square hole, uh, you need to find that perfect fit that comes in with a ton of experience. Whereas some startups that I've worked with, they're willing to hire people that have great kind of attributes, but maybe they don't have all of the years of.

Of experience that a bigger company may, may, uh, require. Um, so it, it allows me to be a little bit more creative and once I get to know the startup a little bit and the hiring manager or the hiring teams, I can say, Hey, I've talked to this person. They're not on paper, they may not look exactly right, but I think they fit your culture.

I think they fit your vision of what they want to do. They're passionate about your kind of business. Um, and they have a, at least a little [00:22:00] bit of experience in what they need, and so they can grow into the role. Um, and startups tend to be a little bit more flexible on that, at least, at least from my experience.

So I think those are some of the key criteria that I look at. Um, but also when I talk to candidates. Uh, you know, I shared like, Hey, not every startup is created equal. Like you said, not every startup is successful. However, a lot of startups do give you some type of, you know, equity or some type of stock options that could be real game changers financially if the company does well.

And so maybe the, the compensation kind of total package may be a little bit different than going to a big company. Um, but maybe the upside is, is a little bit better from a, a, you know, cash perspective, but also just from a career opportunity perspective. Um, so those are some things that I kind of look at, check those boxes a little bit, and then, you know, it makes me feel more comfortable, you know, reaching out to people on behalf of, uh, one of my clients.

Mehmet Gonullu: Completely makes sense. And I started to tell people, like, I discovered this late, by the way. I [00:23:00] said like, you need to have the VC mindset. And there's a book, by the way, called the VC Mindset. Mm. Um, so be because you have to, to uh, to do your bet and to your point. So there are some kinds of, let's call it due diligence that people would do.

Uh, but there's nothing guaranteed. And we actually, we've seen like even big companies, like, you know, they have very good reputation in the market. And it happened one time to me. And, you know, it's not like the company some happened to, but one business unit failed, right? Mm-hmm. Um, it didn't go well. But anyway, so these things can happen.

Uh, to your point, and again, you know, the way you describe it is, you know. How it is and think about how rewarding it is, consider the risk and then take your decision. So absolutely makes sense. 

Justin: Yeah, and I think just, just on that point, and, and I think some people, and I've, I've experienced this, so working for very big companies.

And very small companies, people [00:24:00] perceive big companies as safer, as more secure in their job. And I've experienced that is not always the case, especially for PRI or publicly traded big companies because if they need to make their quarter, they need to be, they need to report strong numbers to the street.

Their easiest thing to do is do a reorganization using air quotes for anybody listening, you know, a reorganization. And some people get caught up in that, that are really, really good employees. They've been there for a long time. Unfortunately, they may be on a product line that isn't doing as well as as possible.

Maybe not their fault, maybe it is their fault. Who knows? Um, but you know, so I think people look at startups as like ultra risky, which they absolutely are. Um, but, but big companies are not. The safe havens of never gonna get laid off, never gonna get fired, never gonna be a good employee, but get caught up in a, in a, uh, reduction in force, uh, or whatever.

So, um, so I just, anybody listening to this, it's like weighing the option [00:25:00] of going to a startup or going to a, a bigger company if you are a dedicated. Hardworking employee. A startup may be actually the better fit because you will be able to shine more than you will be at a bigger company where you're a, you know, one of a hundred salespeople.

What if you're the one of two and you're the best salesperson? Who are they gonna get rid of? If there is a downturn, they're gonna get rid of the other person, right? So absolutely. If you bet on yourself, sometimes a startup is a better environment and a, and theoretically, a quote unquote, more secure. Uh, job prospect than a, than a bigger company.

Um, so I I, I just wanna throw that out there 'cause I've seen it on both sides. I've been involved in big companies and small, um, and big companies are not always the safest place to be. I mean, I get so many LinkedIn messages in LinkedIn, uh, you know, things in my feed that people are, they've been laid off and haven't found work in, in years, and all their experience is big companies.

So they, they're very limited in their options of where to go next. Their next option is probably gonna be another big company, and if big companies in their industry aren't hiring. Well then [00:26:00] it's, it's, you're kind of between a rock and a hard place, right? Absolutely. And so, um, so anyway, there, there's just a lot of variables to think about when it comes to, you know, big company versus startup.

Mehmet Gonullu: Absolutely. Especially in like, uh, economic crisis times or, you know, uncertain times. Absolutely. Now let's talk about AI if we can, Justin. Yeah. And you know, it's, it's like the so let's, we can't not, right. You've gotta talk about it. Yeah. So, so it has to be like, even on something not ready to tech, we still need to speak about AI now.

But jokes aside, everyone's talking about ai. I had like a lot of guests also in, in, in recruitment, in hr, let's call it. And in recruitment. Yeah. Um, so what, in your opinion, what is the real value that AI really is giving us today? What's hype and what do you think is here to. 

Justin: Well, first of all, let me just preface this by saying I'm not an AI expert, so I don't want anybody to take this as like gospel.

Um, but [00:27:00] 

Mehmet Gonullu: sure, 

Justin: I'll speak about kind of how I'm using it and how I think the recruitment industry. Um, and job, the job kind of seeker industry is kind of being helped and hurt by, by ai, so, so I'm using AI obviously in a lot of my recruitment process. A lot of the tools that I use have an ai, uh, feature to it, whether it's a better way to write an email or, or there's a chat bot in there where they can interact with candidates and, and all of that.

Um, I'm using it personally more as a thought partner, so I've got kind of my own kind of board AI that I've created where. I've kind of modeled it off of, uh, a few different very. You know, prominent people, Steve Jobs and some other people where I, I kind of have that as a project where I can go in and essentially talk about what I'm going through as an entrepreneur, as a leader, and have them give me some of their thoughts.

Is it perfect? No. Um, but it's a really good opportunity for me to kind of bounce ideas off of somebody that, uh, you know, somebody using air quotes, um, [00:28:00] that. Is very unbiased and will tell me the truth, um, versus trying to think through it on my own. So if you're an entrepreneur out there and you're not having kind of strategic thought partner conversations with ai, regardless of the the model you use, I think that's an opportunity to, um.

To really tap into as a leader. Uh, one of my buddies here in Austin, uh, Jeff Woods, uh, he wrote the book, the AI Driven Leader, and it, it really kind of flipped a switch in kind of how I think about kind of just AI and how to use it as a leader versus, you know, kind of prompting it to write me a, a three email drip campaign to reach out to private equity firms.

You know, everybody's doing that, and that's kind of easy. I think if you kind of think about it more as a thought partner, it can be really, really impactful for a, for a leader. Um. Where I think it's kind of interacting or kind of causing some issue for the job seeker and, and specifically also for small businesses are you can, if you're a job seeker, if you're unemployed or, or looking for a job, you can hire or pay [00:29:00] a bot to apply to jobs for you.

And these bots theoretically will create unique resumes based on the job description for you and apply to all these, all these positions, uh, what that's doing for a job seeker, you can apply to jobs in your sleep. Which theoretically is great. Um, but what it's doing to small and mid-size businesses that don't have massive recruitment teams internally is they are getting flooded with resumes.

Most of them are either fake or they're, uh, they're not the right fit. And the, the, the bot is just applying because. One of the key words or one of the jobs, title words matches what the, their, their client air quotes is kind of is um, is looking for. So I have a client that I'm talking to, they're a, a small startup.

Well, okay. Midsize startup. Um, their HR person is their only HR person. They don't have a recruiter. They don't. Mm-hmm. You know, that's the only person. She posted a mid-level job, got 2000 applications in 24 hours and had to pull the posting [00:30:00] down. Now. If you're a, an HR VP of hr, uh, and you're a one person department, how are you gonna sort through those 2000 resumes?

No way. And kind of come up with a short list of, uh, potential candidates that look good without spending a ton of time. Uh, and so I've actually had a lot of clients reach out to me and outsource their, their kind of job application process and job and applicant funneling process to me and my company because we can kind of filter through the, the junk candidates, uh, no offense to any of the candidates, uh, but filter through the ones that aren't qualified or aren't real.

And kind of provide them with a short list of Okay. Of the 2000. We, through a couple of filters and, and a couple of kind of pre-screening tools that we use, we can get it down to a manageable 50. And then what we will do is then. We will kind of hands-on human, uh, eyes on the, the resumes and say, okay, of these top 50, here are the top 10 that we are gonna reach [00:31:00] out to.

Hire. Tomorrow's gonna reach out to, to have a spree, prescreening interview with them, make sure they're they're real, make sure they fit the criteria that you're looking for. And then, and then serve you up kind of the. Ultimate short list of three to five candidates that at that point you should be able to go through your internal interview process and hire one of them.

And you have saved a ton of time by not going through all 2000 applications. So I think ai, what, like you said, I don't think any, I don't think AI is, is going anywhere. I think it's only gonna get better and I think it's, it's here to stay. Um, I think a lot of people are throwing AI into their product. Um.

For rightly or wrongly, and, uh, it's causing, you know, small businesses to be inundated with applications and then they spend. Too much time sifting through junk resumes, people that are not qualified. Um, and then it's a poor candidate experience for the ones that are qualified because they're maybe waiting longer to get a response.

Maybe they don't get a response. [00:32:00] Um, and so it, yeah, I think there's just a little bit of a, we're in this weird period of ai where knows it's the future. Everybody's putting in a lot of investment. A lot of VCs are investing in a ton of AI companies, and so it's just a matter of the small businesses aren't equipped to pull in AI or use the AI tools that they need, um, because they're, they're time constraint.

They're, they're capacity constraint. They just don't have the resources internally like a big Fortune 500 company does to test out different tools. 'cause there's 1,000,001. Recruitment AI tools out there, I've, I get inundated with messages with, Hey, we can help save you hours of time or whatever by our AI recruiter.

And I've done some demos and some of them are okay. Some of them still have a long way to go, but, um. But for the clients that I work with specifically the small businesses, they are getting overwhelmed with applications. They don't know who's real, who's [00:33:00] not. Um, and so it's just causing them even more problems in hiring than when they were getting too few.

Um, there, there's, there's a, a good balance of, okay, what's, what's quality applications versus quantity, and I would rather have quality than quantity. 

Mehmet Gonullu: Do you think, Justin, based on what you mentioned, and of course this is what I heard from a lot of, uh, uh, people in the field like yourself, do you think that AI exposed some of the weaknesses in the process itself?

I mean. Having a job link, people will, because this is what's happening even before ai, right? Yep. And we used to have the a TS systems, you know, the score automatic, uh, scoring systems trying to do this, do. But do you think that we have now the urge to fundamentally change maybe the process? I don't know.

Of course we're gonna still use cvs, I dunno, for how long, [00:34:00] but as long as we are. Trying to summarize someone's experience into like two pages or three pages and get someone I, I'm not sure, I might think out loud with you and say, Hey, like we can directly, you know, get an AI to interview them. But we started to see also these, uh, videos where they are tricking the ai.

So, where are we heading? Do you, do you think like the, the job is becoming harder because of, of this? Or are you optimistic and you say like, no, like probably there will be some tools that will eliminate these. Okay. Quote unquote junk, uh, you know, candidates, uh, that are coming just. For the sake of, you know, maybe they are, uh, vibe, 'cause this is the word now, vibe, coding, vibe marketing.

I heard it somewhere the other day, like vibe applying to jobs. So, 

Justin: yeah, I, I think, um, it, because applicant tracking [00:35:00] solutions are still, can't parse a resume correctly. So if you've ever applied to a job and you've uploaded your resume and it says parse, that means essentially it's, it's looking at your application and trying to pull out your key information and put it into their, into their system.

How many times have you applied to a job? Put your resume in there, it parses, and then you have to go answer what's your name, where did you work? What's your job title? How long were you there? What's your education? So effectively they're still not able to do that. So like I think the applicant tracking system has a long way to go because even these big companies like Workday, you still have to, the parsing is not perfect.

Um, and that's probably because. The resume is not, every resume is not uniform, right. You're not using the same format, you're not using the same text and bullets and, and you know, pictures pump, people put pictures, some people put pd, you know, so it's, it's a very, for whatever reason, people haven't been able to solve that problem.

So [00:36:00] I think the, I think AI will help to make that process easier. And the other thing I sh, I will say is, um. If you're a candidate, and let's say you're not using a bot, um, and, and you're applying to jobs on your own. You should not have any reason to have any grammatical or spelling or formatting errors on your resume because you can put it into a chat, TBT or some other large language model and say, please check this for grammar, spelling, formatting, and spits you out.

A very nice uniform, perfect resume. So if you're not using ai, if you're gonna use a for one thing, if you're a job candidate, uh, please just. Make sure your resume looks, feels perfect. Um, because the last thing you want is to have a recruiter that looks at it and says, well, your formatting is off, and maybe you're supposed to be a very detail oriented person.

And that just shows that you're not ultra de detail oriented. So, um, but I think, I think the, will it cause a [00:37:00] fundamental shift in how the process happens? Potentially, but not yet. Because think about, yes, big companies may be leveraging ai. They may be bringing in, you know, agentic agents to kind of replace the initial, uh, recruiting process.

What's that? 1% of all companies think of the HVAC company that, you know, comes out and fixes your, your air conditioning unit. Are they using AI to screen applicants? Maybe not. Right? And so I think, I think it's gonna be just like any kind of technology, we're in this massive hype phase where everybody is like, we gotta use it.

And if you're not, if you're not talking about AI and you're not using it, then you're falling behind, which potentially is true, but I don't think that if you implement it haphazardly, it's just like any piece of technology. If you don't implement it correctly, it's not gonna be as efficient as it should be.

So, um. I could probably talk more about this, but I think the, the summary is, I think AI is here to stay. I think [00:38:00] ai, ultimately, it makes my life. Easier. It's making other people's lives harder because maybe they haven't set up their internal systems and processes correctly. Again, going back to they're not experts in it, they don't have the time to do it.

They've got other things that are more, quote unquote more important. Um, so there's a, a little bit of a long way to go. Um, but just one thing to touch on with the, I saw a post the other day about, uh, somebody posted about their experience being interviewed by an AI bot. And that person that was interviewed thought it was pretty clunky, but not as terrible as they thought.

And then some people in the comments were like, I will never, I, I automatically reject, um, a, an interview from an AI bot because they feel that the company that uses an AI bot for their initial round of interviews does not put enough weight or, um, enough kind of investment in the candidates. So they're like, I'm just not doing it.

I thought that was an interesting take on you are essentially saying anybody, [00:39:00] any company that's using an AI interviewer to, that you're not interested because you don't feel like they're putting enough weight on the app. Actual interview process, which I can't disagree with. I don't necessarily wholeheartedly agree, but I think there is something there where there is probably a subset of people that just will not, don't, don't want to, and will not, at least at the current moment.

In, have an AI bot interview you, uh, or interview them for, for a job. And the other thing that I think is gonna be interesting to, to keep an eye on is ai, you can train an AI to ask specific questions on an interview, right? Like, you can give them questions that they, they have to ask what you can't solve for, at least not yet.

Um, and I've asked a few AI companies this, what, how do you solve for somebody that, that a human. Shares information on that interview that could be perceived as discriminatory. Mm-hmm. And the AI bot has copied all of that text down and they put it in their system of record. [00:40:00] Well now if that person sues the company because they felt like they're, they were discriminated against because the bot decided they weren't the right fit.

Then you just opened yourself up to a massive lawsuit. So like, we've already seen some, some, you know, I think Workday had a, a, an article out there that they were being sued 'cause their ai, you know, screening process was discriminatory against age. But I think there's a little bit of things that may come out, um, if there are some things where people are.

You can't prevent a human from sharing what they're gonna share. Right. And any recruiter listening to this, we sometimes become, for whatever reason, therapist people will share things with me. They should never share. And I don't know why they do, but they feel like they're, I'm a nice person. Maybe they like my voice, I don't know.

And they feel like they can share stuff, but. If they're sharing that with a bot, well, that bot is capturing every piece of information and remembers every piece of information, right? Like, I don't remember everything, but a bot will remember everything. So I didn't mean to go on a, a soapbox moment there, but I think there's, [00:41:00] lemme just summarize.

There's a lot of opportunity with AI in recruitment. I think we've got, we're, we're kind of in, in the first inning of probably nine or more innings. Um, and so I think I'm excited about the opportunities that will, it'll afford, I think there's still some, some kinks that need to be worked out. Um, to make it a little bit more efficient for everybody.

Mehmet Gonullu: Absolutely. And I think, you know, recruiting same as sales, same like other, uh, other fields, they are so human in nature. Yep. And I think, you know, uh. The other day, I think someone was saying like some of the jobs that will disappear and we agreed that, you know, recruitment is like the recruiter job will not disappear.

And the simple reason is because. Me as a candidate, I cannot reach by myself to all the places that I want to because the power of a recruiter, and correct me if I'm wrong, Justin, is your network, like how [00:42:00] much people you know and because it's relation at the end of the day. Mm-hmm. And I think AI is still not able to replace this relation between us humans.

Same apply in sales. Yeah. Like I can, I can ask, you know, AI to do some prospecting for me. I mean, just. Research preparing list, but I have to go and do the job right to, to, to sell the technology itself because there are like some, uh, human aspects that I don't think it'll disappear. But yeah, AI will amplify, let's say the way we work.

We become maybe more efficient. So maybe from recruitment perspective, the cycles or like, you know, the, the time to close a position will, will shrink. You know, from couple of months, probably, maybe to couple of weeks because we can do things faster. Yeah. So, absolutely. On this, uh, as we are coming close to an end, Justin, just I have one question, which I just figured out now that you also host a podcast.

Yep. Uh, what is it about and how much it help you in finding clients and [00:43:00] like growing your network? 'cause I was just mentioning about the network. 

Justin: Yeah, no. Uh, so the, the podcast is called Growth Capital Podcast. Uh, essentially I interview startup founders, uh, CEOs of mid-size private equity backed companies.

And then I interview people from the kind of private equity and venture capital world, so the people that are kind of do the investing. And so it's been, it's only been around since November, so less than a year. Um, it's a, it's a great opportunity for me to, I've interviewed some of my candidates that I've placed, which has been a lot of fun.

I've interviewed some of the CEOs that I've worked with and actually hired people underneath them. Um, and so for me it's an opportunity to get deeper into the, the ecosystem that I'm trying to build. Um. And so it's, it's generated some additional. Well, it's a gen, it's a, it's an opportunity for me to reach out to potential clients, private equity companies, CEOs, and instead of selling them, Hey, I work with a recruiting company.

Uh, you know, here's what I do. I can say, Hey, would love to share your story on the podcast. [00:44:00] Um, and the podcast is very similar to this. It's a conversation. I'm not selling what I do. Um, obviously we talk a little bit about talent because. Like we've talked about in this show, as you're scaling a business, you, you need to do that via people and, and technology.

And so I help on the, on the people side. So, um, I've enjoyed it. I had a podcast a few years ago on commercial real estate 'cause I was doing a ton of, uh, commercial real estate investing and that was fun at the time. But, you know, I'm very passionate about. Helping companies find the right talent. And, you know, it's, it's a, it's a reward for me when I get brought into a company and they say, we've had this job open for 1, 2, 5, 10 months, whatever the, whatever the timeframe is, we haven't found the right fit.

And then. I'm able to identify the right people, um, get them in the interview process, and they ultimately hire one. Um, and then, you know, I get to kind of see the success because a lot of times in the startup world, if I can place a CFO or a head of sales or marketing at a company. Odds are they're gonna be at a new company in the next two to [00:45:00] three years because the company will, that they're at will sell, maybe they'll, they'll not be doing as well.

So they'll jump to a new company. And then to your point about network, I'm able to then say, Hey, you know, I placed you with this company. How are things going? Haven't talked to you in a few months. Like, let's catch up. And you know, then I've got maybe a new client. So the podcast has been a lot of fun for me.

I interview people all day for my recruiting job. So the podcast is just an interview that's recorded and shared with the world. So, um, you know, it's a, it's a little bit easier for me to, to kind of jump into that. So it's been a lot of fun for sure. 

Mehmet Gonullu: Great. And I suggest all the audience to go and check it, uh, because I love these kinds of podcasts.

Like they are similar to mine, not because I do it this way, but you know, they are more genuine, you know, they build, uh, great audience as well and you can have, uh, great conversation. And honestly, the biggest thing, uh, for me at least, you know, is I learn a lot from my guests. Also as well. Mm-hmm. Of course, to your point, people ask me like, how much money do you do with the podcast?

I said, guys, it's not like about the [00:46:00] money. This, I don't do money from the podcast, but you know, the network that I gained podcasting, I say to people, you can't put a price tag next to it. So it's of course, like I had visibility, I had other opportunities outside of the podcast, but yeah, like the network effect that, uh, you know, it created for me.

It's priceless, I would say. Yeah. 

Justin: So, 

Mehmet Gonullu: uh, I'll ask people to check it. So Justin, if people want to get in touch or like learn more how they can reach out? 

Justin: Yeah, I mean, I, I do a lot of, uh, networking on LinkedIn, so check me out on LinkedIn, uh, or if you wanna reach out to me, um, my website is hire tomorrow, HIRE tomorrow.com.

Uh, and my email is just j dixon, DIXO n@hiretomorrow.com. Any of those will, uh, will land in my inbox and would be happy to. Happy to connect with anybody. If they are looking for a job. I'm happy to help in any way that I possibly can, or if they're looking to hire, uh, obviously can help on that front as well.

Mehmet Gonullu: Great. Again, Justin, thank you very much for taking the time to be here with me [00:47:00] today. I learned a lot, uh, and great, uh, insights from your side, I would say, and this is how I end my episodes as usual. So first, you know, before I forget all the links. That Justin mentioned will be available in the show notes.

So if you are listening on your favorite podcasting app, you'll find them in the show notes. If you're watching this on YouTube, you'll find them in the description. And as I say, this is how I am. If you just discovered this podcast by luck, thank you for passing by. If you enjoyed, please give me a favor, subscribe, share it with your friends and colleagues.

And if you are one of the people who keeps coming again and again, the fans. The audience, thank you very much for all what you're doing to the show this year. Uh, I'm speechless. I'm repeating myself, but before, uh, you know, couple of months I start to see a trend like, you know, we, we are like increasing the audience, uh, day by the day, but recently in the past few months, and especially now in July.

We are trending in the top 200 Apple Podcast [00:48:00] charts in multiple countries, so it used to be one, two. Now we are in eight countries. I'm hoping for touching the 10 very soon, but this cannot happen without you, the audience, without your support, without you know, your suggestions. And of course, all my guests, you included, Justin, because without my guest I couldn't do this.

So thank you very much, and as I say, always stay tuned for a new episode very soon. Thank you. Bye-bye.