#474 Execution Over Ideas: Andy Cwik on Building and Scaling

Episode 474

[00:00:00] 

Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to the opposite of the CTO Show with Mehmet today. I'm very pleased joining me from the us Andy Cwik. He's the co-founder and CEO of Hubub. Uh, Andy, the way I love to do it. With all my guests is when I welcome them, I keep it to them to [00:01:00] introduce themselves because, you know, I believe, you know, there is no other better way than someone to introduce themselves, right?

So I keep the floor to you and, um, you know, gonna take the discussion from there. Just as a hint for the audience, we're gonna discuss a lot of things related to tech, of course, ai, little bit about, you know, the startup ecosystem. And Andy is doing something also special aside as well. We're gonna touch on it.

So, Andy. The floor is yours, 

Andy: bill. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. So, uh, maybe I should describe myself first, how about that? 

Mehmet: Sure. 

Andy: Okay. So, um, co-founder and CEO of hubub. This is my third startup. Um, my first startup was a, um, data encryption company that crashed and burned. My second one was a telehealth company that had a fairly good exit about two years ago, and now I'm, uh.

And, um, the second one wasn't my idea. I joined as a, a founder. It was a serial founder, started it and I joined, [00:02:00] um, to help build the product and get traction and go to market and all that good stuff. This one is my idea. We're a, um, a SaaS platform that automates business client entertainment, which means that companies that entertain frequently, they're taking, uh, clients out to dinner or prospective clients out to dinner and ball games and concerts and all sorts of stuff like that.

Frequently. We automate the whole process from recommendations to notifications, countering payment, ride share, or populating your CRM tool in your expense reports so you don't have to scan your receipts or go through your credit card statement at the end of the month. I also, I'm on the leadership team for, uh, seed say idea stage accelerator called the Founders Institute in Chicago.

It's, it's, it's international, but we have a Chicago chapter. I'm also on the leader local leadership team for. Founders Network, which is a Silicon Valley based, uh, full-time founder, peer-to-peer network. 600 people invite only. Um, as well as I stood on the, uh, [00:03:00] numerous advisory boards and I dabble in venture capital, although that's more recent, mostly healthcare, but later stage companies can be agnostic, but that's probably of only about 10 or 20% of my time.

80 to 90% of my time is on hubub. 

Mehmet: Cool, and thank you again. And the Founder Institute is a place also close to me because, um, I, but not the founder institute, it's like their other, uh, arm, which is the VC lab. So I was Okay. Uh, very humbled to be on, uh, one of the cohort, uh, last year. Yeah. So, oh, I didn't know that.

Okay, 

Andy: great. 

Mehmet: Yeah, we can discuss this also maybe now what I'm always curious Andy about, and maybe it's a traditional question, but. I always wished that all the ideas that I had when I was younger, I, you know, tried to implement them. So for you, the idea of Hububa like. What was like the aha moment? Like how, how did you find, you know, that this space is untouched, there's a real problem there that need to be [00:04:00] solved.

I'm always curious about these stories. 

Andy: It's been a, a long journey. So I first started thinking about the problem about 13 years ago, and the problem that I started thinking about was data silos or is data silos called by multiple apps? You remember about, about that time, about 13 years ago is when we started having a proliferation of apps.

Apps everywhere. And what I, what I noticed was that the data silos made like the search and discovery less, um, less useful. So I'm one of those guys that likes to find new restaurants or new groups to join or stuff like that. And I, and I realized, well, you know. Some of my data's in Uber, some of it's in meetups, some of it's in Facebook.

And, and the, the discovery wasn't as good. And also I had to juggle multiple apps to do things. And there, I mean, there's a good reason that that data's not shared. People tend tend to not like it when [00:05:00] they, um, they're doing something on one app and then another app seems to know about what they were do searching for and what another app and starts.

Presenting them with ads, or even worse their stories. And I've seen this myself. You know, I'll be talking about something with somebody and all of a sudden in my, one of my feeds, then all of a sudden I'm seeing ads that are somehow a little bit tangentially related to what we were talking about. So leaving me with the impression that they're listening to me.

So the, the, the problem is, is not just the data silos and, you know, you can't just connect the, the data on the backend. You have to do it in a way that. People are comfortable with it and their privacy's protected. If I do a search for something like at an online store and then later on that online store shows me other examples or products or services related to that search, I'm fine with it.

I know that how they got that data, it didn't happen, you know, on the backend without my consent. So how do [00:06:00] you figure that out? How do you, um, get to that point where, you know, essentially it is a super app? Akin to like what they have in China with WeChat and how, and, but China had a lot of help from the, you know, government connections in China.

WeChat had those, those that help and, and how do you do that in the us? So I, I went through several different iterations and, um, you know, honestly didn't know what I was doing all that well. And, uh, at first I just created a super app. I didn't know anything about the Lean in startup method. Um, we were a parking app.

We were, uh, another at one point, another point. We were very consumer focused and I think we finally hit the nail on the head with the way we're solving it. And I see the app, you know, we're getting, we're getting our initial traction with just business client entertainment, restaurants, bars, ticketing, venues.

And users that have a specific pain point, that [00:07:00] being that they entertain frequently. So planning and execution takes a lot of their time, and then they have to worry about CRM updates and, and their expense reporting. So those, that's a pain point we can au automate for 'em. Um, and there's other businesses that have followed this kind of B two, B2C path and we, we see the app eventually growing into a more full fledged, um.

Consumer app just because there's more consumers, uh, than there are business people. And then having, not just restaurants, bars and ticketing venues, but you know, barber shops and dog walkers and massages and everything service industry related in is single place. And even ordering food and paying for it all in a single app.

Mehmet: That's really cool. Andy, I can relate because back in the days when, uh, we wanted to plan something, it was really like, uh, as you said, and as you describe it, it's like complex. You know, I needed to, the, the thing [00:08:00] that I think everyone who, who works like with, especially tech companies who does a lot of entertainment for their clients, you know.

You need to get all these, uh, you know, invoices and then scan them and then put them into whatever expense application you use. So this by itself, you know, like it's, it's, it was like really a big pain. And, you know, just constantly think this, I can, I can relate a lot now. Um. That's when whenever 

Andy: I pitch the idea to, you know, a new employees, investors, whoever, that's when people start nodding along with me when I get to the expense reporting part.

Nobody likes expense reports. No. It's like paying taxes and nobody likes it. 

Mehmet: No, especially, especially, you know, after, uh. You know, if you do like multiple of these back to back. Yeah. And then you come and then you come back, you know, during the weekend, this is the time that you try to find. Right. 

Andy: And then you get kickbacks.

You know, we build, we build the expense reporting guidelines into the app so that you, you're less likely to get a [00:09:00] kickback because you exceeded your, your company's guidelines. Oh, 

Mehmet: nice. Yeah. That's cool. 

Andy: Yeah. 

Mehmet: Yeah. So, so, and this is because there, there's a planning part now. Uh, you are dealing with B2B two C, which is, you know, um, I'm hearing a lot.

It's, it's like where majority of the companies also, when they are trying to come up with new concepts, finding some, you know, good traction there. Now you are not a marketplace, of course, but at the same time you act as a facilitator between like two parties. Now, for you, which one was. The hardest to pitch?

Was it like the providers or was it the companies or the, you know, the employees who gonna use the app? So 

Andy: we are, I think we are kind of a marketplace, but we're, you know, and the unique thing about us is that we're able to pull supply from APIs so we can use existing sources. We, you know, with two-sided marketplaces usually have problems with the [00:10:00] concentrate on the supplier, the demand, and without the supply you don't get the demand.

Without the demand, you don't get the supply. We're able to have supply because we're pulling from APIs. As we get enough demand, we wanna become, move away from the APIs and become a true two-sided marketplace where we're charging brands a subscription fee to be on the platform. Um, as far as the pitching goes, certainly the employees get it right away, but they're not the decision makers.

You have to go, you have to go to like an SVP of, of sales and stuff like that. And you have to sell it as a way to, uh, for them to close more deals. And I, I don't think it's difficult, but you, it, it took some time to figure out the, the right language and the right, you know, the way to articulate the narrative.

But, but those, those SVPs understand, you know, that, uh, having more time for their. Their personnel to service their clients existing and new [00:11:00] clients because you remember, you've got clients that have to renew. Um, that, that they understand that and they understand the value proposition. 

Mehmet: Right now, uh, one thing, uh, Andy, you emphasize a lot about, and I think not only, you know, in, in your case because with your, uh, uh, mentorship, uh, you know, activity that you do, so you say like, founders usually get stuck on, on, on the idea stage, but you emphasize that execution is more important than ideas.

So, um. Like, if you want to give example from Hubba, for example, right? So, so how you can describe, you know, a proper execution for an idea. 

Andy: I've got a lot of, a lot to say about, you know, I've gone through that. I've got the war rooms, so I've got a lot to say about starting a company and, um, ideation. I think in Founders Institute where most people get stuck, [00:12:00] most of our founders are.

Probably at least 80, maybe even 90% are business people without technical backgrounds or technical skills. And they get stuck. Um, they get stuck selling it to a technical co-founder, getting somebody to come on and, and help them build whatever it is or, or, or to take a prototype further. And I think the key is, is you've got to be able to articulate.

And we spend about half our time on this in the founders entity. You have to really be excellent, exceptionally good at articulating your idea and you'll actually, you'll, I've heard Warren Buffet say, not just for entrepreneurs, but for everybody. If you're, the one thing you should invest in is your ability to articulate your ideas, both oral and written, and then also present them, you know, there's this, there's a whole hard to.

Once you're able to talk, you also have to know how to, you know, stand and [00:13:00] present and stuff like that. There's a whole art to that. But, um, being able to have that ten second pitch, that one minute pitch, that three minute, five minute pitch, and being able to articulate clearly and simply so that your grandmother could understand that what it is you're solving, what problem you're solving and how you're solving it.

And then also your go go to market strategy. A lot of founders, you know. Think if they build it, you know, they'll, they'll the field of dreams, uh, notion that if they build it, they will come. And, um, that's rarely true. You have to have, know where your customers are and how to find them and how to talk to them.

And that's the go to market strategy. You have to have that in addition to the great solution, to a, to a a significant problem. 

Mehmet: Now if I want to ask you about, you know, regarding this point specifically, Andy, like, um, a lot of founders today, you know, they, they started also to [00:14:00] kind to make it look more, I would say, attractive, like.

Put some words, ai, right? Yeah, yeah. Next frontier technology, something like this. Yeah. But if you look, if you look at the idea itself, it's just a traditional idea. So. Now is AI kind of making a lot of noise here and uh, you know, some founders are just trying to, you know, ride the bandwagon? Or are you seeing, and this is like again, I'm asking from your work at Foundry Institute, right?

So, or are you seeing like, really no, people are coming up with really real problems. I would say that AI can be the right solution for that. So. What are you seeing in that space? 

Andy: So, I mean, it's nothing new. I mean, we saw this, you know, when blockchain and crypto came about, everybody, everybody, whether they it made sense or not, was talking about how they're using blockchain or machine learning.

Same thing with machine learning. Before LLMs, [00:15:00] everybody would work machine learning and blockchain into a solution that a lot, you know, 80% of the time didn't require those things they were just, um, but. Some of it's not the founder's fault. Some of it's, that's what VCs, those VCs look for, those buzzwords.

Sometimes, you know, 50% of currently, almost 50% of VC dollars go to ai. So if you're a founder and you're trying to raise, you've gotta work AI and somehow, even if it doesn't make sense, so some of it's not the founder's fault, but some of it's just bad advice or bad decisions, sometimes it just doesn't make sense.

I think everything. In in, in terms of the human computer interface aspect of it, almost prob the majority of new solutions have to work AI into it so that their users can interact through LLMs. Is that true ai? Is that really doing something [00:16:00] with machine learning? Probably not, but it's got an element of AI or an AI enablement, and I think it's okay to talk about that.

And if it makes sense, you should use it. Where the, the, the hardcore ai, you know, developing or improving the, uh, training methods and or, you know, the nuts and bolts of the models. Those you rarely see people, you know in the startup world building those because they're, they're extremely resource tenants that you have to build.

You, generally speaking, you have to raise an enormous amount of money, which means you either have to be an exited founder or. You know, and you or something of that nature. And, and honestly, I don't think those are generally good businesses anyway because I think it's a race to the bottom with the, with the models.

I think they're all pretty much, you know, I think we're gonna be sitting here two or three years from now and all of the models are probably gonna be, not have a whole lot of differentiation. And you can even see situations [00:17:00] where. People are using models like Deep seek. There's some, there's some significant evidence that they use distillation to train their model using open ai.

Um, so you can, you know, you've got a situation where people are using models to train models. So I, I, I don't think there's a lot of differentiation. The differentiation's gonna be in the, the wrappers, you know, the chat, GTP or the, you know, what we're doing with hubub or what, um, open AI's trying to do with also with their shopping app.

The wrappers, I think are gonna be the enable, you know, the, the, where the value is and, and the, and the, and the, uh, the benefit to the users. Um, and, and also with coating too, I think. But again, the coating's just using, um, there's not a lot of differentiation there. So now if you, there's some areas that I think are in the middle of that, particularly in supply chain and logistics.

Where, where people [00:18:00] are able to use, they've always, they've been using machine learning all along, but they're able, it's like machine learning on steroids now. They're just able to look at more data. They're able to look at data. Maybe that's not even in digital form. Some of these supply chain, you know, trucking companies and shipping companies are using paper.

And now you can use, uh, the natural link group processing capabilities of these ais, which, um, you know. So there's some new things you can do with that. And um, building something that operates in a vertical is, you know, so you've got the models, you've got the wrappers, and you got these guys in the middle.

They're probably, where's probably a lot of value there. And if you're, if you're gonna say, okay, is that true ai, I think that probably is. And that, that probably is, and there's probably genuine applications there, and you're probably really doing hardcore ai, but not the model where I [00:19:00] think you're probably wasting your time and not the wrap wrapper level where it's kind of just cosmetic, you know?

Mm-hmm. So, you know, that's, but we'll, we'll know more like in a year or two. I mean, this things, this, this stuff's on, on, uh, evolving so fast. It 

Mehmet: is, it is indeed. Uh, yeah. I'm hearing a lot of people saying that, uh, LLMs are, you know, being kind of, uh, uh, becoming a commodity, uh, and still the software part, which is like, so it's like as if I.

You know, the cloud, right? So, so the cloud, when, when people start to talk about the cloud, so cloud ended up to be just the infrastructure for SaaS companies to, to, on top of it. Excellent 

Andy: example. Excellent example. There's, there's very little differentiation between any of 'em, right? 

Mehmet: Right. And LLMs are becoming, you know, the commodity.

We are. Not saying they're not important, but I mean, like, yeah. So, so as of today, if I want to start a SaaS [00:20:00] uh, company, I go and choose between, uh, Amazon's AWS or Microsoft Azure. Yeah. Or Google, whoever gives you the best 

Andy: deal. Yeah, 

Mehmet: so, so probably, so probably, uh, you know, software is king, so everyone is saying like, software stays the king.

I have a theory that hardware is also king. I mean, you know, these AI chips and what's happening in quantum. Uh, of course, 

Andy: yeah. 

Mehmet: I mean, they, 

Andy: yeah, the, I mean, the ships are. You know, the chips are like, like the standard, like what, you know, what Microsoft had with the IBM standard, right? Mm-hmm. And if you've got the chip, then you've got the standard, and then you can charge pretty much whatever you want for it, right?

That's what Nvidia can do, right? Who you either use Nvidia or Nvidia. 

Mehmet: Right. 

Andy: Yeah. If you wanted back, back in the eighties and nineties, you wanted to build software, you know, you either wrote it on Microsoft or you wrote it on and made a lot of money, or you wrote it on OS two or, or Apple, and you'd made a lot [00:21:00] less so, and there was no cross platform technology.

You had to write it native, so. Right, 

Mehmet: right. How much are you using AI in, in, in the product today? Uh, and we're using it for software 

Andy: development, uh, a. It, it's shaves a lot of time off of that. We're using it for brainstorming, uh, on the marketing and sales side. Uh, and I think that that's just gonna continue to grow.

But initially that's where we're, we're dipping our toe in the water and we're, it's saving us a lot of time. 

Mehmet: Anything you're using it for, interaction with the, you know, platform users, whether on business side or that 

Andy: that is to be built. But yes, they're right now, uh. I, I'd say, uh, next month we're going to have an LLM implemented and the users will be, and there's gonna be a, a redesign and users, uh, our users will have that option.

They'll be able to either speak to our app in [00:22:00] natural language or type a natural language prompt, and the app will just, it'll be the equivalent of TA having a, your own executive assistant. 

Mehmet: Right. And there is something which is related to startups and maybe even small businesses. So always we hear, you know, that every startup they need their mo, right?

So they, they need that, you know, unique differentiation. Now, I heard a discussion the other day where someone was saying, Hey, like even if today a founder or founder, they come up with something new. Probably someone would go and take that and give it to one of these, um, you know, ai, uh, co generator ai, like, let's say versa, all the others.

And you know, like the AI might come up with an MVP very fast also as well. Yep. So. And for you as someone who founded, you know, many companies and you exited also as, as well, and now with your mentorship. Uh, so really what's is the MO now? [00:23:00] So 

Andy: defensibility is, is a key aspect that all founders should think about.

There's a lot of businesses that it's probably not possible to have defensibility, and that's okay. You know, it might be in a market that's not a winner. Take all market like you a bakery, you know, it's not a winner. Take all market or crypto, it's not a winner. All take, take all market and that's okay. It might not be be VC venture Backable.

And so when I'm wearing my VC hat, I'm, I'm, you know, I look at product solution team, go to market. But then I, I, if I don't get past defensibility, then I don't, I don't, I don't take a look at investment because. You have to be, have defensibility, the best defensibility. And there's, there's some good sources to, to look at on this.

There's, uh, James co carrier over at, um, uh, uh, what the heck is the name of it? Um, network Effects, NFX, uh mm-hmm. They're fun. They've got a lot of white [00:24:00] papers you can read on defensibility and marketplaces and stuff like that. And. Who used to be, uh, the TripAdvisor product guy, and he has a blog. He's got a lot of good things to say about if you want to Google him about defensibility.

But the best defensibility, there's several, I mean, there's price, which most startups can compete on price. There's unique, uh, supply, which mm-hmm. You could say Airbnb had that unique supply. There's, um. You know, discoverability, there's, but the best one for startups is network effects. And I think we have network effects.

Facebook has network effects because LinkedIn has network effects. You go where your friends are. Amazon had network effects. Now, if you were gonna try and compete with Amazon, you know, there the logistics and supplies, train infrastructures, the capital. So the capital resources to compete with that would be are ginormous.

So that's a [00:25:00] network effect. So with us, you know, there's a network effect because we have a rewards program so that you can use your hubba points just like you can use your airline miles to take your family on vacation and use your hubba points to take your family out to dinner or a ball game. So that creates organic B2C growth.

And, and then as you, as more and more people are on the app, so you know. When you create an event with, you know, people that, that, that you're gonna business clients, they also get an invite to join the app. We take your hub points and take your family out. They get an invite to join the app and you get this network effect.

And network effects are the, by far, the best way for a startup to, um, a startup to compete if you have that Now, if you don't have that, that's okay. Um, but think of other ways of making your product more sticky and more, and, and, and, uh, you know, apple Computer for instance, they, well, they're no longer Apple computer.

They're [00:26:00] just Apple in, but all of their, um, service industry things from, you know, music streaming to their storage infrastructure for storing your photos and your emails, um, to, um, their fitness apps, all of their apps. They only work on their devices. Right. And there's a reason for that. It, it makes it hard to switch to, you know, a competing, uh, operating system right there.

There's a, they create a switching cost, right? By doing that. So, um, and for a long time they ran that service industry a break even because they knew that it was enabling them to sell more hardware. So, um, anything you can do to make your platform more sticky and, and, uh, increase switching costs away from your platform, um, is, is, uh, is is a great decision.

Mehmet: Right. Yeah. We, we touched on VCs a couple [00:27:00] of times, Andy, how the VC industry is, is shifting, especially, you know, with the, with the age of, of AI and large language models and, you know, all the noise that also coming up there. 

Andy: Well, I mean, there are VCs follow the herd, right? They're, they're not any different than anybody else.

And the smart ones kind of try not to follow the herd and look for the, you know, the, the, you know, Warren Buffet always says he is a cigarette butt investor. He is looking for the cigarette, the, the cigarette butt on the ground with an extra two puffs in it, you know? Um, so you kind of want to try and be conscious of not following the herd, but, but.

Just like a lot of other things. VCs are guilty of following a herd and they're looking for AI first, whether it makes sense or not. And um, so that's a big shift. I mean, like almost 50% of every do [00:28:00] VC dollar goes to ai. Um, I don't know that it's affecting the internal dynamics of VC firms that much yet.

It probably will. I. At some point there's, there's some that are more automated than others. Like if you listen to Jason from the All, he's on the All In podcast, he runs the launch mm-hmm. Platform. And, um, he does have a lot of automation. He talks to a ginormous amount of startups his team does every week.

They record it. They, uh, every interaction. They use a lot of machine learning and AI in the background. His, his, he's got a lot of tech, but he's probably at the pinnacle and, and probably the exception, not, not a lot of them are using it yet, but I think it's probably coming where, uh, and, and it will enable VCs to [00:29:00] look at more, far more deals than they could in the past.

Um, you know, using the ver really essentially manual processes they use now. 

Mehmet: Right. I've seen this by the way, and because, you know, I, I have the chance to interact with the, uh, founder institute team and the other arm, which is the VC lab. So yeah. So they have developing the design hub, you know, the, the product that they have.

So they, they. I saw like really cool stuff like AI that can write deal memos. Uh, yeah. You know, so, so the only few things, which is like kind of having the first call with the founders, of course a lot in the due diligence because there's a lot of moving parts, like you need to go and do your job, right.

So you cannot rely a hundred percent still on ai. But what I have seen, yeah, it, it can save a lot of time and this is, might open, um, room for. Getting more founders in front of, of Yeah. Talking especially about the small ones maybe, right? Definitely. 

Andy: Yeah, [00:30:00] definitely. I mean, and, and some of the TD tedious aspects like deal memos, like you mentioned, is, uh, that's probably a good, a good place for automation, but yeah, they'll be able to just look at more, more and more deals and, and hopefully.

I mean, you have to be careful too because if, if you rely too much onis and you're gonna get a homogenous group of deal, you know, homogenous deal flow because you it, it has to look. Foris can't act with purpose and intent. They have no understanding. They're just brilliant parents. They mimic vision and they mimic human speech.

Human language. So whatever you tell it to look at, that's what it's gonna look at. And if you tell it, you know, to look at just ai, then you're just gonna get a lot. Or blockchain, you're gonna get a lot of that. And you're gonna miss things that are novel. So you have to be careful to not rely on it too much.

Right. And, and figure out a way to make sure that you're not missing those things. Where people have like a very insightful product that, that the AI is just not gonna, I mean, they don't have any [00:31:00] understanding, you know? Yeah. They don't, they don't understand nuance. 

Mehmet: Right. So Andy, you, you are part of, you know, the ecosystem in Chicago and you know, of course, as I was telling you before, we, we start the recording.

So it's a kind of a global podcast. I'm very, uh, yeah. Grateful for this. So people, you know, when we talk about startups, hubs in the us so the first thing comes in mind, of course, San Francisco, Silicon Valley, New York. New York, uh, yeah, probably a little bit like some, you know, Boston, right? And Boston for 

Andy: sure.

Yeah. Austin. Yeah. 

Mehmet: Yeah. So anyway, anywhere where, you know, there are like these, uh, you know, big universities, big names, but how is it like in Chicago and, uh, you know, does it differ like, uh, from other places and are the, because you know, here I'm, I'm in Dubai, right? And something which when I interact with both founders and investors.

From the us They come here, we find out, you know, and they tell me [00:32:00] like there are differences from place to place. And some of them, which are not in New York or San Francisco, they tell me about sometimes struggles they have. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, they talk about like lack of community. How is it, you know, there in Chicago and uh, you know, yeah.

So, you know, what, what's the scene like? 

Andy: I mentioned my first startup crashed and burned years ago, and one of the reasons crash and burn was there was just no infrastructure here. You know, I don't come from an entrepreneurial fam family. My, my co-founder didn't either, so we didn't know what we were doing, and we didn't.

There were no accelerators and there were very few VCs and you had a mail a deck to them. You know, there was no any, that's how old that was. Anyway, we had that in San San Francisco. Uh, I'll say a couple of things about it. You know, the pandemic, one of the things was is it democratized VCs somewhat. And so it is, if you are building, there's two things.

There's the, the virtual aspect. Now, if you're, [00:33:00] if you are in Chicago and you're building something in transportation or food tech or med tech, there's a lot of, um, you won't, probably won't have to go outside of Chicago. But if you're building something consumer, uh, something social, something, um, uh, maybe even education, you're probably gonna have to go if for funding.

You're gonna wanna have integrate at least virtually with people on the coasts for fund funding, mentorship, and stuff like that. Now there's, there's also the in-person aspect of it. You, it can't all be virtual and, and Chicago has exploded with in-person events even, even in the last two years. But, you know, it's been, it's been exponential go, you know, from what it was even five or 10 years ago.

But even last year, it's just exploded. I, I [00:34:00] have to. To very be pick, pick and choose about what I'm going to do for in-person networking. But in, in-person networking is, is crucial for, you know, meeting funders and customers and potentially new employees. And there's a lot of that here. But if, but, um, and if you're, and, and if you're in those certain areas, like I said, you know, supply chain, transportation, food tech, uh, med tech, there's a lot of, uh, you probably don't need to leave the city.

Um, but if you're in those other areas, you do, uh, and, and the, the VC environment here is somewhat, um, risk adverse, uh, as opposed to, uh, like an Instagram would never, or a WhatsApp or, uh, Facebook would never get funded in Chicago. Um, and, uh, even a hub. Without, without a tremendous amount of, uh, my company without a tremendous amount of [00:35:00] traction, would not get funded here, would not get a, there's no, uh, nobody writing check.

Very few people writing checks on a paper napkin or, or a prototype. Whereas on the coast you do see that, so, right. Um, but you know, and there's some ebb and flow. We've got some great accelerators. We've got some great, um, networking spaces. We've got 1871 Tech Nexus work box. Um, we've got Techstars here for Med Tech, but if you want the big, uh, top tier accelerators, you have to leave the city.

You have to go to the coast for that. You know, if you want to, Y Combinator, et cetera, you have to leave the coast. And I don't know that Chicago would ever support that. And it, it, there's, there's a, um, I guess what I'm getting at. There's a different, uh, risk tolerance here, and it's much lower. Mm-hmm.

There's a lot of studies that [00:36:00] show, not a lot of studies. I I, I've been made aware of some studies that show that the returns are better here for vc, but if you're taking lower risks, yeah, your returns gonna be better, but you're also gonna have, you're not gonna have unicorns. Right. Um, we had cameo here, which is kind of, uh.

You know, they had their moment and they didn't, uh, they're no longer a unicorn. Um, but even, even them, they, they went to the west coast at some point to raise money and, uh, you know, to raise their larger rounds and, and, um, their founding team, uh, you know, operates on the West coast now. Uh, they're not, they're not so much in the city anymore, so Chicago's not likely to produce unicorns because it's so risk averse.

And I don't think it's a lack of capital. I think it's just, it's just a different, more conservative mentality. And I don't, I don't know that it's gonna change. I don't think it needs to change. I mean, the pandemic made, opened up access to a lot of that stuff on [00:37:00] the coast. The, the coastal investors now realize they don't have to be able to be within bike riding, uh, distance of their, of their investments.

Mehmet: Yeah. But yeah, which is, which is fine. And you know, like, uh, even in Europe, like there are places of course, like Europe, always people look at it as risk averse. But of course there are like countries which are like more, I would say. Uh, risk friendly than others. So for example, Sweden where, uh, the infamous Spotify and, and, uh, yeah, Sweden seems to have 

Andy: a lot of startups, don't they?

And Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So it must be something with the attitude there. Yeah. 

Mehmet: Yeah. And you know, I'm, I'm very much interested also to understand the, the reasons sometimes why. Um, some regions, some even sometimes cities, they would be more different than others. Yeah, yeah. But, but again, it's as you said, like it, it, it depends, and it doesn't have to change, as you said, [00:38:00] because this is what makes, this is what makes a place like special, right?

So that's the beauty of 

Andy: the internet. And it's only getting better with like starlink and stuff. Right. 

Mehmet: Yeah, so, so for example, just, you know, say, hey, like, uh, this place is gonna be the next Silicon Valley. I, I say I the first question why it needs to be Silicon Valley. Yeah. It doesn't need to be. 

Andy: Yeah.

Mehmet: Yeah. Like, it can be whatever in its own way. Right. Of supporting founders and, uh, one of you don't need. Yeah. 

Andy: You know, one comment, another comment I'll make, I hear a lot of people in Chicago say, yeah, we're more risk adverse, but you know, it's easier to hire engineers here. They're less expensive, they're more loyal and stuff like that.

Those things are really gone. Right. You know, the pandemic made remote work possible. The, any, any of the psychological barriers that were there, or, or a lot of 'em, it did it with a lot of things like, uh, from shopping to online banking to telehealth, but it also did it with remote work. The, the resistance that middle mid midville managers had.

And I mean, you're seeing some clawback, [00:39:00] but I think that's temporary. So I, I mean, I've got two people here and then I, I got people in Miami, I got people in Charlotte, I got people in Pittsburgh. I got a person in the uk. I got two contractors in Nigeria, one in Nigeria, and one in Nairobi. Um, that's not why I'm here.

I'm here because it's where my family is. It's not because I can, I don't. When I post a job, I want the best person in the world. Mm-hmm. Now, sometimes I need somebody domestic because we're dealing with business, uh, intelligence, uh, data and stuff like that. And people don't like the idea of people outside the country being able to access it.

So, I mean, they gotta be domestic. But still, I, I don't care that it's, I, I'm not, I, I'm not restricting myself to people in Chicago. So that kind of thinking, well, Chicago's great because the engineers are cheaper. It's silly. 

Mehmet: Right. Uh, two, two things I still need to, to ask you, Andy. Um, [00:40:00] because you exited, you know, uh, companies also as well.

Yeah. The question that always, uh, I get it sometimes just out of courtesy because you know, people, they know I love to read about startups. I love to, to, you know, and the question that. I didn't find a clear answer yet, is when a founder, they exit or they say, you know what, no, I need to double down on it.

I've seen different examples. I've seen like sometimes where the founders probably, they were excited to go big, but because they didn't get with the, you know, acquiring companies. Yeah. They decide to go, uh, sometimes it's personal reasons and sometimes. People who didn't actually take that offer. Yeah. And they said, no, I'm gonna grow.

You know, and they're gonna do it all by myself. They crashed. So with all this experience, what you can share on that, Andy? I 

Andy: think it's a difficult [00:41:00] decision. It's a heart wrenching decision. It's hard for, these are your children. It's hard to part with them. It's hard to give it to somebody else and let them do whatever they want with it and, you know, change the name and the colors and the culture and.

Even the product mix and you're not gonna, you know that, so it's hard to give them up usually. The other thing is that I think you have to look at, you know, is it is if, if you wanna take it big, like public, which is rare to be able to take it public. Is this, is this just a single use soft service or, or tool, or is this a platform, is this.

An Apple computer or a Facebook or a Microsoft, that's really a platform that other people like Amazon, Amazon's really a platform. Are they? Are you able to have other people contribute an ad to and build it where it's more of a full-fledged platform? Or is it just a single thing and sometimes it can be a platform, but it may be it's defensibility is an issue.

And [00:42:00] so I'll give you a couple of examples. I mean, it was heart wrenching decision for Facebook when they got a a billion dollar offer, I think from, uh, I, I don't think it was from Google, but it was, but Zuckerberg really struggled with whether or not to, to sell there or not for a billion dollars. It had been a fantastic exit and, and he ended up sticking it out and Facebook's really probably somewhat of a platform.

He's, he's tried to make it even more of a platform, but I think there's been some limits to that. But in terms of. Uh, having other apps join it. He is made it kind of a quasi platform. Um, but another example is Groupon. Groupon, I think you could say as a platform company. It's similar akin to, um, Amazon, but they, they turned on a $6 billion offer from, um.

Uh, Google and went public and they were at their initial valuation at, when they went public was around 13 billion, so they looked like a good decision, but the problem was [00:43:00] defensibility. There was no way to make the platform sticky. So then you got living social, popping up, and all these other competitors who just copied it and it was a race to the bottom and then quality.

On the platform went down because now they're trying to flood the platform or supp supply to try to track more and more users. And it was a spiral downward. And now it's like worth like, I don't know, it's less than 10 million I think. So you have to look at are you a platform? Can you, can you become that?

And if you are a platform, is their defensibility. Is there a network effect? You know, Groupon doesn't have a network effect. Facebook does. Apple has a network effect. Um, is there a network effect or, and it doesn't have to be, you know, it can be like, you know, uh, capital, uh, a, a, uh, a network effect created by capital resources, you know, akin to, you know, Ford Motor Company, um, or Tesla, or you know, [00:44:00] Amazon.

If you don't have those. And you got a great offer, you know, Elon Musk sold, sold, uh, zip two and, and PayPal, that those don't have network effects. Well, I take that back. Zip two doesn't. PayPal does have a network effect. Uh, but it's not, it's a commoditized thing. It's, it's sending money. It's if I, if, if PayPal starts taking too much of my money, then I'm gonna go over to Square or somebody else, or, you know, or, um.

Oh, their names are escaping me. There's a million of 'em now to transfer money. Right? Yeah. So it wasn't really defensible. So it was smart to sell that, to sell PayPal. 

Mehmet: Right? Yeah. Um, you know, because currently I'm reading this book and, you know, we are talking a lot about the network effect and the, so. VC people will, will know the, the, you know, the power law, right?

So, and I'm reading the book. Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. So for me, [00:45:00] like it looks, the founders, they have their own power law, which is Yeah. Called network effect. So the, the, the thing is. If I stay, like, can I hook multiple services products so people, they don't leave me, right? Yeah. Right. And if I gonna stay like a niche product, maybe in a niche, and by the way, there's nothing wrong with this.

I know. Like I've met like some founders both. You know, in the US and even here, they are very happy. They're doing like less than I think 10 million a RR and they are very happy, you know? Right. They're saying, we, we serve this, these customers, we are not VC backed, uh, you know, we are happy with like, very slow growth.

It's, it's like a personality and they are taking it if fits with it, fits with 

Andy: their personality. Right. Yeah. Yeah. 

Mehmet: And, and it's like a, uh, what people call it, uh, you know, lifestyle business. Right, right. Uh, yeah. But yeah, but I've seen the people who really, they want to make this big, they want everyone to [00:46:00] be hooked with that and say, yeah, like, you need, you need to have the, the power to do this.

Andy: Right. Right. I mean, everybody's different. Um, in the Founders Network, there's a guy named Adam Shire. He started Siri and sold it to, with a couple of co-founders and sold it to Apple and he's since done a couple of other startups. He's had like four home runs and they've all been really big multi-billion dollar things.

And he said, you know, the, for him, the, the billion at dollar ideas are as much effort, time, and effort as the small ones. So I go for the billion dollar ones 'cause it's just as much time and effort. So that's his philosophy and I think that's my philosophy too. Um, right to go for the billion dollar ideas.

But like you said, there's nothing wrong with solving a niche problem and, and, and, uh, serving those customers and stuff like that. And there's nothing wrong with that if that's, if that's your thing, do it right. But, but always think about. You know, you don't wanna be Groupon. 

Mehmet: Yeah. No one wants to be [00:47:00] Groupon.

Yeah. Yeah. Abso absolutely, absolutely. Um, something which I, you know, when I was preparing and, you know, when, when the team get in touch, so. It was like a little bit, uh, unusual for me. So I know you're working currently on a documentary related to the US jail system, which is kind of a social, you know, project for you.

What's the relation, what's the passion behind it and um, you know, how do you aim to, to influence this with what you currently do with tech entrepreneurs? 

Andy: Oh, so I've had some, uh. Uh, interaction with the local jail here, cook County Jail. And what I've discovered was that there, shockingly, there's a couple of things.

There's some people, at least in Cook County, and I'm sure Cook County's, you know, it's one of the bigger city jails. I'm sure it's not unique. I'm sure it's in other [00:48:00] jails and prison, you know, prison systems. There's, there's two classes of people that were kind of shocking to me. There's one class where they're, they're cognitively impaired.

Perhaps they've got CP or it might not be obvious or, but they've got the intellect of a, like, say like a 7-year-old or maybe a teenager, and some of 'em have created horror, done horrific crimes, violent crimes, murders, rapes. And they're, they're in this system where I don't really think they should be because they don't, first of all, really can't participate in their own defense.

They're cognitively impaired. If you talk to them, you'll realize it. And they're treated like they're, they're normal. And many of them end up in prison for lengthy prison sentences. And I, they really should be the. You know there, what happened generally is not always is their families just didn't have the capacity or [00:49:00] decided not to look after them and they were out, had free reign and they got in trouble.

Mm-hmm. Then there's this second group of people that have ran of, have run across who are severely schizophrenic or bipolar, and again, have committed horrific crimes. Um, and for one reason or another, they were off their meds. One guy, I know he was off his meds because of the pandemic. He was, he didn't, he was, he's cognitively fine.

He's very smart, but he, uh, the pandemic came and he's not somebody who reads the news. He would, he, he was in the habit that he would get a shot once a month and he was fine. He called up the clinic. And they said, you know, you're fine. You don't need to come. And this went on for a couple of months and it was 'cause of the pandemic and he didn't know why.

And eventually he, he, uh, he had a manic attack and he killed his grand 96-year-old grandmother with a, with a pitchfork. And he ended up with a, with a, essentially a life sentence [00:50:00] and other situations where, you know, they've had manic attacks. That, um, and they don't even remember committing a murder or something like that, and they don't, they really should get NGRI.

And there's a couple of problems you have to a jury system. The jury system in Illinois does not allow for the jury to be told that somebody who gets NGRI, which is not guilty by reason insanity. That they will not just be, they won't see him at Dairy Queen the next day. If they find him not guilty by reason sending, they'll go to a mental hospital for at least 10 years, maybe, maybe forever.

The jury's not allowed to be told that. So you have to, you have to ask for a bench trial. Uh, and the judge knows that. But you know, then you're, you're, you're the mercy of a judge. So basically you, you don't have the benefit of the jury system 'cause, and so a lot of these people are not being treated fairly.

They shouldn't be out about in public, but I don't think they should. Be where? Locked up in, uh, a state prison where with, with hardcore [00:51:00] murderers who are not mentally ill. I don't think that's fair. I think so. There's gotta be some solution there. Um, and then a lot of these people, there's the medications they have to take really dull their senses.

They make them very lethargic and they, so they don't like to take them. They end up sleeping all day. Not all of them, but some of them. And then, and then there's a also a situation where some of them, they're on their meds and they kind of just subconsciously stop taking their meds because they're fine.

They, they're not having hallucinations, they're not having mania, and they think they don't make a conscious decision. This, this happens in a certain percentage. They don't make a conscious decision to stop taking them as they kind of just gradually stopped taking them, and then they became become manic.

I don't know what the solution is. But I don't think the public knows that we're spending millions of dollars on these people keeping them incarcerated, um, when they really should be quickly moved to a mental hospital and maybe kept there. I don't, I don't know what [00:52:00] the solution is. The third aspect is, and I don't think this is well publicized, is I.

It seems like the trigger for a certain percentage, it's probably a small percentage, but a certain percentage of this, uh, schizophrenia and bipolar, uh, disorder is triggered by psychoactive drugs, street drugs, a lot of these people are chronic, uh, users of marijuana and, um, stuff like that. Now, there's millions of people have used marijuana and don't become psychotic, don't become.

Mentally ill. Um, but there's a percentage that do, and I'm not saying I'm not against legalization, but I'm saying we need to be a little bit aware of this in the age of, of, of legalization. And there's also instances, and I know a person personally who happen this happened to, uh, people who don't become, uh.

Use these drugs. They don't become permanently like schizophrenic or, or uh, [00:53:00] bipolar or anything like that, but they have a manic episode and have created and, uh, committed murders. But then they, they come back to normal and they're fine, but they really gotta stay away from those drugs that's not well publicized.

People, you know, there's a lot of people selling these drugs as you know. Um. A, a, you know, a wonderful solution to all their problems and, and, and the equivalent of, you know, having a, a martini. And for most of those users there are, but there is a percentage where you, there is a risk that you could have a man, a manic episode.

There's psychoactive drugs and if you use them chronically, you could develop, um. Um, it's a small percentage you could develop a mental, a severe mental illness. Now, very few people with these mental illnesses commit horrific crimes, but it is a possibility. So that's, that's, I'm working on a documentary on that.

Um, I've, [00:54:00] uh, I'm interacting with a. Uh, director and, uh, working on shopping around for, you know, trying to find a documentarian and, uh, to help try. I think it's a good way to try and publicize the problem. I think the public should at least be aware of how tax dollars are being spent, and also it should be taken into consideration, um, in the age of drug legalization.

Mehmet: Right. And this is like, it's something good for the society also as well, so to understand, you know? Yeah. Uh, the thing behind the, the reason I ask you because, uh, I have a daughter, she want to become a, a criminologist because for the exact same reasons. She, she always like. You know, she, she said like, we need to understand the background of, of these, and you know, why we should put these people together or not.

So this is why I, I was like a little bit biased to ask you this question, so, so probably after we finish the recording, I gotta go ahead tell her like, you know, I had this fantastic discussion. [00:55:00] She wants to become 

Andy: a What? I missed the word 

Mehmet: criminologist. Criminologist, 

Andy: okay. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. 

Mehmet: Yeah, be, because she always tells me like, you know, like that there is a reason people, you know, sometimes do this.

Like they are not always like bad people. There might be some other things. And, uh, yeah, just that 

Andy: they just had a horrific set of circumstances, you know, and it had, they known, I'm sure they would've made different choices. They wouldn't have been, become a chronic user of drugs or something like that.

And. But everything in the society is like, well, it's not a really big deal. It's, you can quit whenever you want. Yeah. It's, it's habit forming, but it's not a, it's not a like a heroin addiction or something like that. 

Mehmet: Yeah. So absolutely. Just before, like, you know, I, I, I do my final closing. Uh, I always, you know, when you were talking, I, and you said about the pandemic and what happened.

So this brought to my mind the movie Jo, the Joker, and how sometimes, you know, you push people to go and do bad stuff [00:56:00] also as well. And, uh, you know, I think us people who have the. Capability to do it, whether from money perspective, from any kind of support, not only money, like we should, you know, part of our social, I would say give back is, is to shed light on these things so we have, you know, a better world.

So thank you for doing this, Andy. 

Andy: Thank you. Yeah. 

Mehmet: Yeah. So finally thing where people can get in touch and learn more. So 

Andy: I'm, I'm very active on, um, LinkedIn. So if you, uh, search on my name, you, I think you'll see it right below me, Andy, CWIK. You'll find me on LinkedIn, um, and I accept almost all, uh, uh, connection requests.

And then, uh, you can also find my company@hubub.me, HUBU b.me. We're not a.com. We're a me. 

Mehmet: Cool. I will make the life easy. So audience, they can find, you know, both your [00:57:00] LinkedIn profile and the company website in the show notes. If you're listening on your favorite podcasting app, if you're watching on YouTube, you will find in the description, uh, uh, notes also as well.

Uh, Andy, really, I enjoyed the discussion. Time flew very fast and it was for me very informative. Uh, you know, especially with the use case you're solving, uh, with hubub, so. Looking forward to see how this will evolve in the future. And this is, you know, for the audience, this is how I end my episode. So guys, if you just discovered us by luck, thank you for passing by.

If, uh, I hope you enjoyed it. If you did so subscribe, share it with your friends and colleagues. And if you are one of the people who keep coming again and again, guys, I'm really grateful for you, for all you know. The effort that you did this year, uh, by getting the podcast to new levels, I even didn't expect this is like, was a humble podcast for me.

I'm just trying to do a small impact, but I discovered, you know, like, uh, just today and for the sake of transparency, we are recording on 6th of May. Uh, so the [00:58:00] podcast made it into five countries, top 200 podcasts under the entrepreneurship in different countries. Also, I received an email yesterday saying that the podcast was chosen to be one of the top.

Hundred podcasts globally. So they choose us, uh, by the millions podcasts. I'm gonna put in the show notes as one of the best hundred, uh, tech startup podcasts. So thank you for that and people are noticing us. And as I say, always I do all this to be able to give back little bit back to the community. So thank you for the support and as I say, always stay tuned for new episode very soon.

Thank you. Bye-bye.