#473 AI Won’t Replace Jobs, It Will Replace Companies — Anthony Franco Breaks It Down

Episode 473

[00:00:00] 

Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to new episode of the CTO Show with Mehmet today. I'm very pleased joining me, Anthony Franco. Anthony, thank you very much for being here with me today. The way I love to do it is I keep some suspense for the audience, so this is why I let my guests [00:01:00] introduce themselves. So tell us more about you, your journey, and what you're currently up to, and then we start the conversation from there.

Just as a teaser for the audience, we're gonna talk. A lot about AI and of course about entrepreneurship. So, Anthony, the floor is yours. 

Anthony: Uh, yeah. You, you, uh, you did catch me off guard a little bit. I, I am a serial entrepreneur. Um, I've started in, I've started and sold, um, six companies. Um, most of them have been in tech or, um, uh, uh, advanced manufacturing.

Um, and now I am, I'm doing a couple things. I'm hosting my own podcast called How to Founder. And, um, and that's just an entrepreneur, tactical, ent, entrepreneurial advice where we dive deep into one subject every, every episode. Um, and I'm working as a, i, I help companies sell. So I'm work. I, I help entrepreneurs who are ready to exit, exit.

And I'm working as a, [00:02:00] a, a launch a, a launch architect. I don't know how else to put it. Um, the. The, my, my job is helping companies launch new, new things, new products, new channels, and right now I'm working on something with a company called Onereach, um, and I'm helping 'em launch, um, the principles of operationalizing ai.

Mehmet: Cool. That's something which looks to me interesting, uh, about operational ai. So tell me more how to operational operationalize it. Uh, I would say, um. Why, you know, what's, what's wrong in the market, I would say. 

Anthony: Well, yeah, let, let, let me maybe give you a little bit of context around that. So the, um, um, my, a very dear friend of mine, um, Rob Wilson, runs this company called Onereach.

And they're, they're, it's the most advanced. Enterprise AI agentic platform on the planet. Like they, they were rated by [00:03:00] Gartner Forster. Um, he, he wrote a New York Times Be Best, uh, a bestselling, uh, book called The Age of Invisible Machines, um, around, um, the, the future of AI in opera. In in the enterprise.

And, uh, one of the problems he has is the system that he built is incredibly robust. Which is a nice word of saying it's very complex. Um, it does it like can, it can do anything in AI when you're operational and, and, and orchestrating agents. And so he asked me to come in, um, and take a look and help 'em package it to make it more understandable for, for a broader audience outside of enterprise.

'cause they're looking to go down market. And, um, so the first thing th that, you know, they've been doing this for almost a decade now, so they've been in the space, um, even before GPT launched, um, to open AI launched chat GPT. So, um, [00:04:00] they've learned some things and, and inherit and, and, and navigated how you orchestrate, um, uh, orchestrate automation within organizations.

And, um, and didn't really like they, they've just become naturally good at that, but they didn't really document how and, and what, and, and finally boiled down to when they go into an organization to help them automate systems or processes, they figured out the first rule is don't automate bad stuff, right?

Don't take what your people are currently doing. And automate that because that'll produce, you know, you're gonna automate bad processes. Um, and so you kind of have to unwind how you're doing things now. Re-look at it, use design thinking to figure out how do you make it better. And then once you've simplified and, and, um, the current processes and boiled it [00:05:00] down as into first principles, now you have a foundation to start automating.

And so I started documenting how they do that so that they can do it better internally and maybe enable partners. And I said, Rob, this is really good. Um, what you figured out is amazing. We need to open source this. And, and he totally agreed. So it didn't take much convincing. So, so I've spent, uh, uh, quite a bit of time documenting that process and then bringing in some other processes like, like, um, uh, in lean, in lean, um, they talk about pull first.

So, so we've added some pull First methodologies. We've looked at the Musk algorithm, for example, and incorporated all the. Great things about legacy processes and then applied it to the new modern AI and, and launched, uh, uh, two things. We've launched the AI first principles, so that's just AI first principles.org, which just talks about the, the mindset that NE is needed and then kind of this recipe or cookbook on how to do it, which is called the Wiser, wiser [00:06:00] method.

Mehmet: That looks interesting and something, you know, while you explaining this. Uh, came to my mind, you know, when you said people. Just start to automate and you know, integrate AI in the processes like this is very much similar to when of course and still ongoing when people started to go shift from on-premise to cloud and they start to do what's called lift and shift.

Yes. And what happened with Lift and Shift is because they didn't go and change the architecture, which is kind of, uh. A legacy architecture, they start say, hey, like why we are paying that much to the cloud? And yeah, people say, because you just, you know, copied whatever you had. You moved it to somewhere else, data center and you didn't try to understand how new technology can actually help you in speeding up, you know, saving you money or I don't know.[00:07:00] 

So, looks like, and I get what you're saying, Anthony, now you mentioned something about the mindset. Here's the thing. Do you believe or do you think that leaders, you know, get. This, they, they get, you know, taken by surprise because when I mentioned the cloud and I choose for a reason, it was like a kind of a slow adoption.

AI came and everyone wanted to jump on the one backend and they wanted to bring AI to their organization. Do you think like, this is the mindset. Problem that leaders have. Like, Hey, before we do any initiatives, let's go and find out like what are the current problems and if we can solve this by adopting automation, AI, and so on.

So what, what is, you know, the, I would say the mindset shift that leaders need to do in order to have a successful move to the AI [00:08:00] age or the AI era, as some people call it. 

Anthony: Yeah, this, so this, this is a real, so do I think leaders get it? No, I still don't get it fully. Like I, it's hard for me and I've been in it, um, and looking at how the top company does, top company does it for enterprise for o over a year now, and I'm still like, I.

Yeah, this is, this is a fundamental shift in how work gets done. Um, you're starting to see companies like, um, there's lots of an announcements where, like Shopify for example, they're telling all their employees they need to, they need to be using AI for 10 or 20% of, of their work, which is, you know, you give everybody a subscription to chat GPT and, and, and now they're kind of off to the races and it's, and it's an it.

I think that's an, that's an obvious first step. But in reality, um, we, the mindef, so the way, the way I, I'm looking at it, and, and the way I've kind of wrapped my head around this a little [00:09:00] bit is we're, we're going from this assembly line mindset of how things get done in an organization. So just like how Ford invented the assembly line, you, you stamp out 10,000 units of the same product over and over again, and that's best done and more sufficiently done in an assembly line.

Um, and, and so we've applied that to how things are done within an organization and how, just how knowledge work is done. And AI enables something com something completely different, um, especially agentic, um, orchestrating agents within an organization because now you. You, you're not, you're not, you don't think about things necessarily in the assembly line.

It's more like, it's more natural, it's more fractal. It's more chaotic how things organically think about how nature, um, um, develops. Um, but things, things in the world. That's [00:10:00] more how you have to think about how AI is leveraged in an organization. Now that can be scary because you, you're now thinking about, well, nature's.

Completely disorganized and random. And um, and so it's, it's more about like thinking about your organization not as a forest or an assembly line, but as a garden. And so Garden has architects and it's architected in a way. And this is very abstract. I realize it's very abstract, but it's the best, it's the best metaphor I have when you have to think about.

Letting things organically grow within your company using AI rather than trying to keep, keep control over how every little thing happens within your organization. Um, and that's really, it's a very difficult mindset shift to, to, it's a, it's a difficult leap to make. 

Mehmet: Now I want to. Ask her about a few things.

Now, this is again, in the mindset, and [00:11:00] I believe also, and correct me Anthony if I'm wrong, one of the challenges there are some, um, legacy in, in the enterprise world, let's put it this way. In, in companies. Yeah. Uh, traditional system, and I know, like you say, they are outdated. They, they, they're broken. So for example, six Sigma Agile, um.

And you mentioned about are 

Anthony: broken. 

Mehmet: Yeah. Uh, I, I agree. I agree. And you came with the wiser, um, you know, uh, methodology, right? So. First of all, let's talk about the broken things. In, in, in these, I know like some people might be upset because we are discussing this, but guys, the world is changing. So, but again, as, as someone, the nice thing about your profile, Anthony, is like, you've been on both sides of the table.

So [00:12:00] you, you've built businesses, you exited multiple times, you're a serial entrepreneur and you've seen it all. Why? What we have or you know, what still people believe in is broken and we need a change. 

Anthony: Yeah. And, and you know, broken is, um. Broken, a hyperbolic way of looking at it. Um, so a, so let, let's talk about Agile really quick.

So, um, agile came about because waterfall methodologies were broken. Um, designing these huge, monolithic, um, um, progressively programmed, um, systems. Um. You would spend months, years until you had something that you could put in front of users to figure out whether or not it was good or not. So they, so Agile was invented based on many failed software projects.

Um. And, and it, it really was kind of a revolution and, and, and still has a place, [00:13:00] especially in, in circumstances. So and so does Sig Sigma and so does, um, you know, BPM. So those processes still have places. Um, for, for example, um, if you're in a highly regulated environment or if you're in an environment where if you make a mistake, somebody loses their life, you need these really rigid processes and really, um.

Um, manageable processes to manage that, but most of us are not in an industry where those things are true, that we're a, a mistake. A mistake can be quickly fixed and doesn't have, um, a, a lasting impact. Um, and so when you're so agile, tried to solve that a little bit, but it's still too dogmatic and here's why.

Um. So one, one of the companies I, one of the companies I started was a company called, um, effective, effective, it, it, it was acquired by, um, by WPP, and we were the world's [00:14:00] first user experience agency. And what that means is, is we cared about the design of the UI first, and then we built the system behind it.

And it really, it really opened my, opened my, um, mind on how it, how impactful design thinking is. Design thinking is basically think about the outcomes first, design what you want, and then engineer behind that design. You do that by understanding, having empathy for the business, having empathy for the end users, having empathy for the customer, having empathy for the stakeholders or employees, whatever, and then really understand how things get done and then build a system behind that.

And, um, at the time it was, it was revolutionary, but that, but those processes still matter. And when you look at something like Agile and you say, okay, so when does design get involved with Agile? [00:15:00] And Agile respects design very little. Like they, they even, they even like shove it in what they call Sprint zero.

Right? Like they don't even give it a true sprint. They call it sprint zero. It's like the, yeah. The design is the thing that you do first and then you let us engineers get in here and, and solve the real problems. And like that doesn't work anymore. Um, and you don't need, um, these heavy processes to engineer because you can, you can genetically.

Um, organically improve the system, uh, incrementally as long as you have it well designed and you're thinking about it from a design First principle, 

Mehmet: uh, I am very big fan of design First Principles. Now saying that, and maybe if you're watching this on, on, on YouTube, people will see the AI first principles.org over there.

So what are, like, what are these principles, Anthony? 

Anthony: Well, it, it, it, the, the, [00:16:00] the principles are just, um, it, it's really just a, a, how do I describe it? Um. It's, it's a, it's the foundation of how we think about implementing AI from a design, design thinking process. You know, it, it, it's very, it's very simple.

It's very lightweight. Think first. Um, think AI first, but automate last. So understand what you're trying to automate before you try to automate and then simplify it. You question everything. You, uh, you. You honor human creativity. 'cause that's really where the power comes in. That's really where the leverage point is for organizations now, is the human element.

And we've tried to engineer the human element out of it, and we're saying, no, no, no. The human element is everything you embrace play. So this needs to be fun. Um, you, you use first principles, it's in the name. Um, you focus on outcomes. So what is the thing that we're trying to accomplish? And you measure on those outcomes.

You simplify relentlessly. Then [00:17:00] you create pull. So what, what, and that's, that's a concept that we, that we pulled from lean, which create pull means you subtract a whole bunch of stuff and then you add based on user or, or, or system demand. Um, so this, it's basically simplifying and then, and then we, we. We on top of the AI first principles, which is just essentially, think of it like, I hate the term manifesto, but think of it as a manifesto and then the, the wiser, um, the wiser methodology is more about how do you put those principles into practice.

Mehmet: Now let me ask you, Anthony does this, I know the answer, but let's, you know, hear from you. Okay. Um, because we're using some terminology is that someone will say, Hey, like, this is fits more a startup. Does it fit a big organization also as well? 

Anthony: Ah, it's a, it's such a good question. I think it fits an org.

Look there, there's, there's, [00:18:00] you know, you know the, you know, the answer to this, you know, any answer in technology is, it depends. So, so, so it, it depends, right? So, um, I think it fits better. Um, and it was designed more for, for, to understand, um, existing ways of doing things and then re-engineering it as though you're a startup.

So it's kind of startup thinking or, or, or, um, SIMPL simplification of a problem. Process thinking you can't apply it to startups. But the, what a startup has that enterprises don't is they have a blank slate. They don't have, um, they don't have systems that they have that have, um, decades of tribal knowledge around it and, and decades of, of overcoming problems that, that, um.

That don't exist, that, that, that existed and, and navigate and navigating those problems. They don't have, um, uh, approval [00:19:00] processes, right, to get to navigate through. And so startups have a little bit of an advantage here. And, but you can't, you can't apply the same kind of thinking at a startup, especially if you're trying to disrupt an industry.

Um, you can look at how other industries do it, apply the wiser method to it, and then re-engineer your systems based on somebody else's. That's actually a great use case for it, but, but it also works really well in, in, in organizations that are kind of stuck in bureaucratic nonsense. Um, and, um, it was really designed for that circumstance to, to, to break free of the, of the, of the bureaucracy within your organization and really leverage and harness the power of AI and orchestration of agent agents.

Mehmet: Now the natural question that I want to follow on, because we've talked about agentic AI and you know, agents, you know, automating things. I know it's kind now a cliche question, but still some people [00:20:00] are doubting, uh, Anthony, uh, or some people are having this fear effect. Oh, like the agent. Will completely replace me and I would not have a job.

Um, so, and again, like this is something I think it gonna take some time to p for people to digest, but really in, in reality, uh, why people should not be fearing, you know, uh, a, uh, agent AI and agents and automation and, you know. How do you think, like we can shift the, this, this way of thinking in a just fear and doubt and, you know, pushing back what, what, what, what you can share with us about that.

Anthony: Well, I mean the, the, another cliche saying that you've probably seen a lot is, um. Um, AI is not coming for your job. It's coming for people that who don't. It's coming for the jobs of people who don't use [00:21:00] ai. And, and, um, when talking to, so Rob Wilson, um, the, the, again, the CEO of Onereach, when talking to him about this, he's like, actually, no, AI's not coming for people's jobs.

It's coming for companies. It's not gonna replace your job. It's gonna replace the company, which is a real like. Don't think again. Um, he thinks in, in, in terms of 10 years. Right. So he's, he's an absolute visionary when it comes to this stuff. And so it, it took me a while to wrap my head around that and like, what does that mean?

It means that companies don't, that don't embrace AJ Agentic technologies are gonna be gone because, um, because it's, you're gonna be able to provide better services faster. Than, than any, than any company that's not embracing this, this, this way of thinking. It's you, you are, you are, and, and companies get that, like a lot of companies understand, we need to get into this [00:22:00] AI thing, so it's gonna take a decade for this to be actually true, but if you're not employing AI as a company, you're going to die.

Period. That and, and it's now, it's about for people, it's about. How do you get people to do what people are good at, which people like, I suck at this and I think most people are the same. Doing the same thing over and over and over again is really hard. And also doing everything bespoke is very hard, right?

Doing everything differently every time. That's what AI's good at. Ev. Everybody's good at doing the same thing over and over and over again every single time. And it's also good at, um, that's what automation is good at. AI is good at be everything, being. Personalized and customized. Those are two things that are hard for humans beings to do.

Where humans can come in is they could be creative and, and have empathy for how those systems are built and how they're deployed. So it's just you as an in, I mean, you, you [00:23:00] do this too, right? I now have, I can now do the work of 10 people because I employ ai. That doesn't mean that. We're gonna replace 10 people's jobs.

It means we're going, humanity's gonna have 10 times the velocity of output that we have now. So it's, Elon says it's the age of abundance. That's what he's talking about. It's because we're just gonna be able to produce a lot more for a lot less money, therefore. All of us are gonna have this really abundant option, uh, series of options.

And, and so I don't think, I don't think it's gonna replace jobs at all. I think we're just gonna live in this, in this incredible era. 

Mehmet: Yeah. There will be no pressure because, you know, I, I, I'm envisioning now, you know, I changed my mind a lot in the past two and a half or three years because, um. Yeah, we, we, people cannot stay on vacation all the time, right.

So they need something to, to be, to be busy with. [00:24:00] But I believe people will enjoy maybe what they are doing more, uh, rather than just sitting and doing repetitive tasks that they hate because they don't like to, to do repetitive tasks. Right. I totally agree. Agree. I think that that's, I think the only. I'm not saying it's, it's a problem.

Let's call it a challenge, which I believe we gonna pass it somehow is passing the AI knowledge to the mass, uh, population. Right? Um, I know like a lot of companies now, they started in initiating these, you know, let's train everyone on ai, lets everyone get into this gen AI thing. But I think, you know, they're still kind of missing.

You know what really? AI can do because ai, it's not just, you go and type a prompt and it gives you like the best marketing. I don't know. So I, I think, you know, people needs to, to get some, I don't know how, maybe, maybe you have an answer, Anthony, like how we can upscale [00:25:00] people, uh, in organizations to, to, to also be ready, uh, for the next wave.

Uh, 

Anthony: yeah, I don't. This is, this is a better, better question for Rob. 'cause he can see, like I said, he can see things 10 years out. I'm, I'm more of a biographer of this. Like, I look at what's happened and go, oh, that's interesting. Let's, let me get that out for folks. Um, uh, the, so I don't know how this man, I can only tell you how it manifested for me, right.

At first it's like, well, let, let, let's talk, let's take a step back actually. When you say you're in ai, what does that mean? When you hear somebody say, I'm in ai, like, does that mean you're, you're designing chips for Nvidia? Does it mean you're working at, at, at open ai? Does it mean, um, you're, you're in machine learning for, for, um, research, or does it mean you're in Chatt PT three times a day?

And, and, and so the answer [00:26:00] is yes, all of those. But there, there is, and, and, and to kinda take, take it full circle back, there is no, I'm in operationalizing ai. There's nobody talking about how do we operationalize and how do we take this, this, this, um, this, this new technology. Uh, and, and think about it a way that we can actually put it into practice.

And that's, that's really kind of, I, I, for lack of a better word, that's really what I'm most excited about and what I get to be involved in over the next few years is helping organizations do exactly what you're saying. And that is how do we shift our mindset and put it into practice in a way that that really makes a dent in the organization 

Mehmet: right now?

Let me ask you, Anthony. Something I hope you would find interesting you having this, you know, amazing, you know, experience of being serial entrepreneur and, you know, you've done it multiple times [00:27:00] now, maybe second time founders who are listening to us, they might relate. If you are first time founder, listen Well.

So from this methodology, like from, from, you know. Uh, using the ai. So there are some steps, usually entrepreneurs, they need to do, you know, when, when they start, uh, any new venture, I would say. So starting from ideation and then, you know, going, finding, you know, the product that they want to work on, the, the problem they want to solve.

Then kind of an MVP product, market fit and so on and so forth. How much of this AI agents can help in, in your opinion.

Anthony: So for start, so I, I, I'm gonna answer, I'm gonna twist that a little bit. I'm gonna twist that question just a little bit. I think it's a really interesting question. Um, uh, so sorry for the [00:28:00] pause, I wanna make sure I get this right. No worries. Um. The companies that win are gonna be companies that think small, not big.

And, and, and what I mean by that is if it can be vibe coded, what, what value are you bringing as an entrepreneur? And so. Really where the, I, I think the economy is shifting and will continue to shift is those entrepreneurs that can do the things that are uniquely human build relationships, sell, um, create a creative ways of looking at a market in a different way.

The engineering of a product is commoditized, so it's what new thing that I can bring to market that. I am uniquely able to [00:29:00] create a human to human connection. To get awareness of it and then grow that, grow that company. So when I say, when I mean go small is you're now going to meetups. Like you're going it's hand-to-hand combat.

Now it's, it's talking to individuals. It's if you, if you trying to automate your outreach, everybody is, it's all noise. So it, it now goes back to you need to be good at the things that most people. Don't like doing, which is this, this, this notion of connecting with a real live human being and having a conversation with them about what you're doing, solving their problem, and, and selling to them one-on-one.

Um, I, I, so when you talk about how do you leverage ai, that's kind of gonna be easy and it's really easy now. Um, it, the hard part is what we need to get good at as [00:30:00] entrepreneurs, which is, um. It's connecting with other humans. 

Mehmet: That's an interesting take. So I agree with you, Anthony, like we're absolutely seeing a huge shift.

Of course, I'm, I, I, I cannot predict the future. I don't claim to me either. Yeah, me either. Um, yeah. But, but of course, like. I try to see patterns. Right. So, and more than any time before what I see, because you mentioned about selling, right? And being able to communicate to, to, to other human beings. So first you mentioned finding the niche, basically.

So going small Yes. Even an expert in, in a niche for sure. And then being able to speak to those folks in their language. Right. And then this is, you mentioned something very, I think it's underrated in entrepreneurship usually, and in in startups. And this is what, when you started, you know, when you did the [00:31:00] introduction, it's about the channel and distribution.

Anthony, um, tell me more, like, does founders really underrate distribution sales and you know, how they're gonna reach to, to, to, to, to there? ICPs ideal custom profiles, whatever you want to call it. 

Anthony: Yes. Um, yes. And developing an ICP doesn't make it that much better.

The, the, so I find, look, I suffer from this. I personally suffer from this. I'm a product guy. I am an engineer at heart, right? So I wanna go solve the problem and, and. My naive still, after doing it for multiple decades, I still think if I build something cool, people are gonna connect with it. And I like, I just need to, I, I just need to build something cool and I'm done.

And that is absolutely not the case. Um, the, the, the building, something cool is. [00:32:00] Probably 20% of the equation getting awareness is, is 80% of it developing distribution channels, developing awareness, developing a process to move a customer through a sales pipeline. Those, that's the hard part. And so many founders I talk to suffer from that.

There's even, there's even a, um, oh my gosh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna forget the name of it. Um, antler is the name of the, of, of the accelerator. Yeah. And Antlers, um, antlers hypothesis is, and it's, and it's a brilliant one, is we need an engineer. And we need a sales guy, and we, and they don't even, like, you don't even need to come into their accelerator with a prob, with a business model.

You need to come into accelerator with either go to market expertise or engineering expertise. They put a bunch of folks in a room and say, all right, go try to make some startups. And they just let everybody [00:33:00] kind of mix and, and, and it's, it's early yet. I don't know if it's gonna work or not, but it's the right, it's the right way of thinking about it.

It's like we need go to market and sales. And it's hard to find that, that in one person. That's why I think co-founders really matter. Some, there are some unique individuals that have that, both those genes. Mm-hmm. Um, but, but yes, I think go to market is. There are how many? I've seen a lot of amazing products that went nowhere because they didn't have that sales engine and go to market figured out a lot.

Mehmet: Yeah. I think the best combination is the one you just described, Anthony, like a super engineer and the super. Uh, sales guy. When I say sales guy, someone who knows how to position the product, how to talk about it, how. You know, being able to, how to be able to show the value proposition that they are bringing and, you know, yes.

Always the, the, [00:34:00] the, the example, which is, you know, traditional example that comes to my mind, I give Apple, right? And I say there were two Steves and one was a great engineer and the other one was a good sales and marketing guy, and it worked for them because. And if, and I think maybe intuitively they, they, they didn't decide to do it this way, but because one was shy, the other one like was the aggressive kind of guy who want to just.

Put his dance in the world. So it worked perfectly for them. But even when I studied, or I tried to analyze other successful startups, especially if they had two or more founders, the best ones that really, really, you know, they, they had this wow effect were the ones where you had the brilliant engineer and the brilliant sales marketing guy, uh, to, to your point.

Yeah. 

Anthony: Yeah. And you can, if you don't have it, you can treat it like a craft and go learn it. You, but you have to treat it like a craft. You can learn, go to market. You can learn how to write good [00:35:00] marketing copy, you can learn how to sell. All of those things are, are now, are you going be as good as somebody that's natural?

Actually, you're gonna be better because you know the product better than, than somebody that's natural. It's selling but doesn't know the product as well as you if you're an engineer. So you, you can overcome it, but you have to treat it. With respect. You have to understand the motivations behind salespeople.

You have to understand the motivat, the motivations behind your customer. You have to have empathy for who you're talking to. Um, but you can develop it. I've seen it, I've done it 

Mehmet: right. Now the question for you, Anthony Ann, because you know you did multiple startups. I'm curious. Honestly, I, I, I, you know, I, I.

I interviewed, you know, some, uh, serial entrepreneurs, but what pushed you to go to the next adventure? Like what, what, what is, what is that? I dunno, like secret sauce, let's call it. 

Anthony: I don't know if I, so I'm, I'm inherently [00:36:00] a broken individual, so, so if I'm not moving, um, I I'm gonna die. So it's like a shark.

Like if shark, if a shark stops moving, they're gonna die. I'm the, kind of the same way. Um, maybe that's a bad metaphor to, to put out there about myself. But, but I, I, I, um. If I'm sitting and watching Netflix for too long, I, I just become a very miserable human being. So it it, for me, it's about moving and progressing and growing and learning and, and feeding that curiosity gene.

Um, and, and I wish I could relax. Like I, I, I, I get jealous of people that like, yeah, I'm gonna go fishing this weekend, and I'm like, that. I wish I could enjoy that, but, but I, I can't, I don't have hobbies. My hobby is entrepreneurship, so I, and I, I think that makes me a little broken. Um, so, um, so I don't know if it's.

I don't know if it's healthy to be like me. [00:37:00] No, 

Mehmet: I see you. I see. It is by, by the way, mentioning the Sharks. I, I know that, um, you know, you were on Shark Tank and you worked Oh yeah. Yeah. Mr. Wonderful. Like, just like quickly, how was the experience? 

Anthony: Uh, once in a lifetime? So, so Kevin O'Leary, um, I'm not supposed to say this 'cause I'm gonna ruin his reputation, but he's actually a really good guy.

Um, and, um, he is, we, so we, we, we, we struck a deal on Shark Tank. Um, he was super helpful in, in growing that company. Um, and um, and being on that show. Look, if you're an entrepreneur, you have always imagined yourself on the show. Now you can say, I don't wanna be on the show. But deep down you're like, you've pictured yourself on that stage pitching, right?

So I, the fact that I got to do it was, um. It's once in a lifetime and, uh, like I don't wanna, I would never wanna do it again, but [00:38:00] the fact that I got to do it, um, what a great ex, what a fun and great experience. 

Mehmet: Okay, good to know. Now, tell me a little bit more about the podcast because, uh, it's, I know from myself, right?

So. Uh, it's not like something first, it's not an easy decision to start a podcast. People think, yeah, let's start a podcast. It's not guys, at least for me, it wasn't an easy, because I didn't want to just, you know, be outside and show my face and, you know, get my voice out for the sake of it. I needed really to, to think about, you know, some mission, what was like.

Your motive to start your podcast, Anthony? 

Anthony: Yeah, so the, the, the podcast is called How to Founder, just How to founder.org, uh, how to founder.com. Um, and it started, um, so I, I have a pa like I said, I have a passion for entrepreneurship and, and really dialed into the entrepreneurial community here in, in Colorado.

And [00:39:00] one of the things that is true, especially if you spend any time around entrepreneurs is it's extremely lonely. And it's lonely because you're constantly failing. You're constantly experiencing something new that you've never run across before, and you don't know how to solve it, and you don't feel.

Look, I, I didn't, anyway, I didn't feel like I could go out and ask other entrepreneurs how to do it, because you're admitting that you're not good enough, right? So, um, so I've always wanted to write this like reference manual for entrepreneurs to say, all right, when you experience, um. When you experience, what does working in versus working on the business mean?

And I'm actually, I'm actually having a podcast episode about that tomorrow. How do you read a p and l? How do you read a balance sheet? How do you hire your first employee? Like all of those tactic things. I wanted to write a reference manual, but I don't wanna write a book. So I, I came to a really good, uh, it's a really good friend of mine, Chris Franks, and I said, why don't we do, why don't we write [00:40:00] this reference manual and do it as a podcast?

And, and so that's, that's where it started. That's the origins. Just to serve entrepreneurs and make it a little bit less lonely and, and a little bit easier to frame a mental model around something when you, when you hit something for the first time. And we've been doing it for a little, almost a year now.

Um, we have 90 episodes in the can. Um, we do it a couple times a week, have guests on, and we just, we tell bad dad jokes and talk about entrepreneurship, but we, we dive deep on one topic every episode. Um, I would say most of 'em are pretty good. Some of 'em, you know, you're like, oh, that guest really could have done a little bit better job explaining it rather than selling themselves.

But for the most part, I'm really happy with, with the, the direction of the podcast. 

Mehmet: Yeah. Yeah. Like, uh, it's my own theory by the way, Anthony. Like, I, I don't think there's a bad episode. Right. Um, and by the way, [00:41:00] it's a fashion when, when I start to do this, I was doing solo. I didn't have the format in my head, wasn't like as interview format and you know, I was like doing it daily because it very short, like I was just recording myself maybe 5, 6, 7 minutes.

I. You know, after I published it, you know what, like, this would be the worst thing I've done ever. And, you know, after two days and I said, you know, the downloads and people writing me, Hey, like, like, you just, like, it's good. Like you talk about this. And when I start to do the, um, the, the interviews, people, you know, I didn't, I expected people tell me like, are you crazy?

Why? Like, you embarrassing yourself? Like you could have asked better questions. 

Anthony: I love that story. 

Mehmet: I love, 

Anthony: I love that story. 

Mehmet: And you know what? After a while, so, and I, I was thinking to be very friendly with you, I was thinking that the, the hosts are kind, sorry. The guests are [00:42:00] kind to me saying, Hey, like, you did fantastic.

You asked good questions and I'm, mm, yeah, yeah. But, but, but really people when they start to tell me and said, okay, good. I'm asking good questions. And this is, by the way, motivated me to, to, to keep doing this. And so I, I can, I can feel the same energy and, and. Power that you have Anthony in, in, in, in, in this also as well.

And of course, you know, people needs to, to, to listen to your podcast because guys, you, you're gonna be listening from, you know, someone who did it seven times and still building. So Anthony like a, after all these years. And you know, I'm sure like you give a lot of advices with the guests that you bring to the podcast.

But today. Let me ask you this question first. So it's important because I believe, you know, and we were talking about the two characters, one engineer, one seller, or marketer, whatever you want to call it. So we are talking now or people talking [00:43:00] about smaller, um, companies and you know, some Altman mention it like some other people.

They talk about the one person company and you know, like, uh. Do you still, like, do you, do you believe like this is in the future, the norm for, for um, for like startups and, and companies? Yeah. 

Anthony: So, yes. Um, I think, uh, this is gonna sound really scary and I, I think I've addressed this before, but yes, I think companies are gonna get a lot smaller because a AI is going to be an enabler of, of that.

But I think there's gonna be a lot more companies doing a lot more bespoke things. So I, I don't, again, I don't think we're gonna have this, this glut of, of unemployed folks. I think, I think it's just people are just gonna start to learn how to use AI and build microservices and personalized services and personalized experiences based on, uh, um, leveraging ai.

Do I think, do I think there's gonna be a [00:44:00] one person billion dollar company? I, I think in the VC land, anything's possible. Like, so, so maybe there'll be a, a one person, um, a one person company that does a billion dollars in valuation. Um, but that, that, but they're not gonna see that money. That one individual's not gonna see that billion dollars.

Right? They, they're, you're gonna, you're gonna need to hire folks and, and, and bring folks on. It's also what a lonely existence to try to achieve that. I'm gonna be a single person that's gonna do like. We're tribal. We wanna work as a team, we wanna work together. You're better when you're challenged by a team.

So, so I think smaller teams are gonna become a a lot more powerful. I think the individual's gonna be a lot more powerful, but I think small teams are going to, are gonna kick a single person's butt every day of the week. 

Mehmet: A hundred percent. I agree with you a hundred percent Now, um. [00:45:00] Again, it's, it's, uh, it's something, you know, I'm, I'm, you know, just remember I have to ask you, you did exits also, Anthony, because, you know, like when I'm, when you mentioned about small teams, and we've seen this before, even, you know, before the AI became mainstream.

So we've seen always like this, you know, you, you, you build something and then a bigger player comes and say, Hey, like, you guys really built something cool. I want to acquire you. I want to buy your company. Um. Uh, and you did it also yourself, so you exited, uh, multiple times. Um, when it's time to exit, like when do you think it's a good time for, for a founder to say, yeah.

Like, when's, when's a good time to fall in love? No, no 

Anthony: one knows. It depends.

Nice. It's, it's that per, it's that personal question. Um, so I always say it's, it's time to exit when you've lost. So you need [00:46:00] to exit two years before you've lost, um, en energy for the business, right? So you need to forecast. I'm not gonna have the energy to put into this company to keep it, keep it sustaining it or growing it in two years from now.

So I need to start looking at selling the business now. 

Mehmet: Um, so signs, signs for it. Anthony, any signs, any signs that people, they, they start to get? 

Anthony: Well, I mean, what the, the most, the most. Obvious one is how old you are. Like, like how old do you are? How old are you when, when you like wanna retire? That's usually what drives a a, a sale.

Um, um, is the owners retiring and they just, they just want to, they do wanna sit in their chair and watch Netflix and go fishing and, and golfing, right? That's, that's one of 'em. By the way, I do not believe that that sounds like a, that for me, that does not sound like a wonderful retirement. Like I relaxing, like that doesn't.

Doesn't jive. And I think most people, most people need a purpose. Um, absolutely. And longevity comes from [00:47:00] purpose. So, but anyway, so, um, uh, another way of looking at another reason to exit is, um. So, so it, it's, it's life moments, right? I want to do, if you wanna do something else, if you're like, I, I don't wanna do this for another 10 years, then, then let's, then let's chat about what it, what is it gonna take to look, look like to exit your business in the right way.

If you, if you wanna take chips off the table, like if you're like, I got a lot, I got my whole, all my eggs in this one basket, I'm gonna diversify. That might be a reason to, that might be a good reason to exit. Um, if, if you, if you're self-aware enough to realize that in new hands the company can go further.

That, that takes a lot of self-awareness. Um, and not everybody has that, uh, me as well. Um, but um, if you could be that self-awareness and say, you know, I wanna put this in somebody else's hands, it's really gonna have energy to drive it to, you know, 10, 10 to 30 times its growth. Um, in that [00:48:00] circumstance, you may want to like, hold on, retain a little bit of the equity in the company and sell it to somebody that can operate it bigger.

There's some risk in that too. Um. A, a lot of times, um, a lot of times, uh, and I'll I'll say one thing also about, uh, building a legacy business. So a lot of folks will say, I'm gonna hand my business off to my kids. 

Anthony (2): Mm-hmm. 

Anthony: Um, and that rarely works out. Um, so that may be your plan, it may not be your kid's plan.

So if, if that's your plan, actually you should start exit planning. You can start exit planning whenever, even if you're not ready to exit. So you can, you can say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna exit in 10 years. Let me ha talk to, talk to an expert. Um, uh, I'm happy to chat with you about it too, is, um, how do I structure my business so that I'm ready to exit it in five or 10 years?

Um, that is also, so you may not even need to be ready to actually start thinking about your exit. Um. [00:49:00] And, and you know, statistically speaking com, peoples exit their business for retirement. They exit, um, for, to take chips off the table. They exit it because something happens to them. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, so they, they pass away.

They get, they get in a car wreck, they have a, a health incident. They have, their spouse has a health incident that they need to go take on. So it's al it is always good to be thinking about exiting just in case that thing happens. What, what other reasons? They also exit to strategics. They, some people exit because they want to go work.

They don't wanna do the entrepreneurial thing anymore. They want to go work for somebody else. So they, they'll, a lot of entrepreneurs will exit and go work for the company, the bottom and, and build a career out of that. So it's just, it, it's really all, it's extremely personable and personal and for all kinds of different reasons.

Mehmet: Very insightful. Absolutely, Anthony, I can, I can, you know, even relate to some stories that I read a hundred percent. Um. As we are [00:50:00] closing to, to, to the finish, any final things you want to share, Anthony? Anything that maybe I didn't touch on and you want to just, you know, mention it be before we close. And of course, as always, ask my guests the call to action where they can find more and where they can get in touch.

Anthony: Uh, thank you. So I, I, I think the, um, I, I would, I'd like to circle back to something that you said. Um, the, so. When, when somebody says, should I be an entrepreneur? I tell 'em, no, don't do it. It's hard. It's lonely. You have higher rates of suicide. You have, you have, you're going up against monoliths that have way more resources, time and money, and should, statistically speaking, you're gonna lose.

And, and if, and then I, I watch them. And if they look at me like I'm an idiot, I'm like, all right, this person's an entrepreneur. Because if I could talk you out of it, um, if I could talk you out of it, then you, then you shouldn't do it. Right. The so I did you a favor. Right? Um, [00:51:00] and, and, and the most inhibit.

So most people, I can't talk out of it. Um, but they get stuck and they get stuck on the start. And what you said, I think is really. Very insightful about how you started your podcast. You're like, I, I didn't want, like, I was scared. I didn't have a plan. I didn't do it. I didn't have all of my ducks in a row before I started.

It was, it was ta like. Myself too. When I started my podcast, it was terrible when I, when we, when Chris and I started, but we started and the, the, the first step is always the hardest, but then the next step is harder because you're like, I'm failing. People are telling me this is shameful. People telling me I'm embarrassing myself.

Ignoring that is really hard. But getting through that and that perseverance. Um, really is what entrepreneurship is about, getting through it, taking the next step, learning from your failure, embracing failure, embracing that, [00:52:00] the fact that you're gonna, you're gonna screw a lot of things up and just learning and growing.

Um, I would encourage people to take your I example to heart and, and just start and be comfortable with the fact that it's gonna be a little awkward and silly and you're gonna be embarrassed and there's gonna be some shame in it. That's okay. That's part of the process. 

Mehmet: And believe the process. I tell people, you have to believe the process.

Of course, I can't claim, also, I knew this at the beginning because you know, when I, when someone used to tell me, yeah, you have to believe the pro to believe in the process. I said, what process? Right? Like process. I can't, I, I don't see any. Play. I need playbook or I don't say anything, you know, that talks about, but anyway.

Yeah. And thank you, uh, Anthony for giving me as example. I try to, and you know, like I try to do this not, you know, just to. I would say talk about myself, like really to inspire people because when I, every time I think about it, I said, okay, I was [00:53:00] late to start it, but it's okay. It's good. I started like, it's better than not doing anything at all.

And yeah. Thank you for, for, for doing. I'm gonna be 

Anthony: 85 and starting something new and people are like, this guy's gonna, what is this guy doing? Like, there it is. Not too, it is never too late to start. I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be starting stuff. And it, I'm gonna, I, I think at my funeral I'm gonna have a startup going like, I, like, I'm gonna be starting stuff all the time.

So it's never too late. 

Mehmet: Absolutely. Absolutely. So where, what is the best way to, to, to. Get in touch and so be best 

Anthony: way. Um, so if you wanna check out AI first principles, it's on the, it's just ai first principles.org, and there's links to Wiser and all that stuff. Also, um, just go to how to founder.com and my LinkedIn profile's there.

The podcast is there. So that's, that's the best way to kind of, um, get in touch with me and maybe lean in onto the podcast. 

Mehmet: Great. So audience, don't go left. Try to find [00:54:00] links. You know, just again, make the life easy. Put everything in the show notes. If you're listening on your favorite podcasting app, if you're watching on YouTube, of course you know, you'll find it in the description.

Uh, Anthony, thank you very, very much. It was like a very, I would say, uh. Insightful yet also fun, uh, conversation with you today. I really appreciate also your time and thank you for making it. And, um, usually this is how I end my episode. This is for the audience. So, hey guys, if you just discovered this podcast by luck, thank you for passing by.

I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, so give me a favor, just subscribe and share it with your friends and colleagues because we are trying, as I was telling Anthony, trying to do an impact, trying to do help. Also follow and subscribe to Anthony's podcast also as well. Do me a favor, and if you are one of the people who keeps coming again and again, you send me your messages, your feedbacks command.

Thank you very much for doing so. I'm super grateful. I know I'm repeating this every single episode this year, but guys, because I'm so [00:55:00] grateful for you because of what you're doing in the, you know, behind the scene for me, you making the CTO show with mead. You know, trending in the top 200 podcasts on the Apple Podcast platform in multiple countries.

This is something I never saw in the past two years. So thank you very much because without you, I couldn't do it. And thank you also for, uh, the trust and I promise you always to be here and, you know, get the best of the best. So thank you very much for tuning in. We'll meet again very soon. Thank you.

Bye-bye.