#326 Strategic IT Service Management: Aligning Business and Technology with Kirk Penn

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Mehmet: Hello and welcome back to a new episode of the CTO Show with Mehmet. Today I'm very pleased joining me from Australia, from Sydney, Kirk Penn. Kirk, thank you very much for being with me on the show today. The way I love to do it is I like my guests to introduce themselves. So tell us a little bit [00:01:00] more about you, you know, your experience.

Mehmet: Experience and what you are up to today. 

Kirk: Fantastic. It's awesome to be here, Mehmet, and, uh, really appreciate the opportunity to, uh, to have a chat to you today. Um, so yeah, my name is Kirk Penn. Um, I've always had a background in process, been in process for the majority of my career. The last 20 years, um, around about in the early two thousands, I came across this, uh, I guess this, uh, best practice of this way of being able to, um, show companies that there is a better way of managing their process called ITIL and ITSM.

Kirk: And, uh, it feels like ever since then, I've just been running around telling everybody about it as much as I can. Um, I'm the CEO and the principal advisor at Service Management Specialists. I founded the practice here in Sydney in 2010, and since then we've been working with a mixture of customers. You know, in the [00:02:00] commercial space, in the government space, we've worked on more than 60 ITSM based improvement programs.

Kirk: So, um, yeah, it's just, uh, I really do focus on, uh, looking at things slightly differently, uh, around process. That's been the majority of my career. 

Mehmet: Absolutely. Fantastic. And to be honest with you, I've been in that seat a long way back more than. I can say 14 or 15 years back, because when I started my career, I was into the IT department.

Mehmet: And at that time, I remember we were talking about ITIL and, uh, you know, the ITSM stuff and it was so exciting at that time because we're trying to organize, you know, like it's something new for us. Absolutely fantastic. Now, I know, Kirk, you've been shortlisted for some awards and were recognized among the top tech companies and ITSM consulting services.

Mehmet: Congratulations. By Apex or Outlook now um but of course, you know I'm sure like [00:03:00] you because you you focus on the process and you know, the majority of the time what we Try to do when we implement these standards is to Help customers simplify complexities so maybe if you can Tell me about a story without mentioning names, of course.

Mehmet: Um, we're really, you know, applying because I want people to understand that these are not just, uh, jargons and, you know, they're just like, Oh, wow, they're talking about I. T. S. M. And this. So I want you to give us give it to us in a story way where really it made difference for a client. 

Kirk: Yeah, absolutely.

Kirk: Absolutely. We've had many of them, and it's, uh, it's certainly the most exciting part of my job, but also, um, probably, um, the most complex as well. So I'll talk about a recent example. We're working with a large, um, commercial, um, Real estate company. Uh, and when we first went in there, [00:04:00] I think the CIO at that time, she said to me, Kirk, the thing that I'm most concerned about is I come in here every day and I see people working, but I really don't have an understanding.

Kirk: Um, of of what's actually going on. I have no reporting. I've no dashboards. Um, I've no understanding about their performance. Um, and she said it's really unsettling for me. And at that stage, she'd been in the, uh, in in her role for probably a couple of months and she had a real focus on, you know, getting her house in order.

Kirk: Um, so obviously, um, I was included in coming into that team to help her uplift really around some of those things. So key issues for her was, um, efficiency, I think across the teams and just transparency of, of workload. Uh, I think, uh, there was a really unclear expectation of, from, from the actual customers, the end users, um, performance, and I think wasn't great.

Kirk: Uh, the overall experience wasn't great, so we certainly needed to look at that. And she was very nervous about just her key [00:05:00] controls. So, you know, when, when a major incident happened, um, you know, things were very, very, um, you know, there was no structure to the way in which they operated, everybody was just running in unique ways.

Kirk: So she really wanted to, you know, solidify and get some, get some process in behind the way in which people operated. So it was certainly a challenge, uh, because. Everybody had been left to their own for a number of years and done the best which they could at that time, but they were certainly working in silos.

Kirk: And, um, I think our role really was to come in and map out a plan, uh, give her some type of improvement program, uh, that she needed to work with considering people, process, tools, uh, really around those key controls around, um, You know, being able to manage incidents better, um, look at a catalogue of offerings that, that was going to be, um, more aligned to what the business was asking for, minimizing [00:06:00] disruptions when changes were being made, you know, give her some release planning as well for, for some of those critical services, uh, just to name a few of the things that we focused on.

Kirk: Um, so that was the first part, but the second part was that Um, she'd been in her role for a couple of months and she needed to show some, uh, some progress pretty quickly. So we broke it down. We identified some quick wins, uh, for her. We put it into what we call our 30, 60, 90 day plans. So the ones that we could do really quickly, um, you know, wrap our arms around.

Kirk: We did that and then extended that out to 60 and 90 days. And in parallel to that, um, we actually built her a business case as well so she could take it to her executive team and, and the Exco to, um, to, to really get some investment in behind and make sure that, um, that what we were doing was well supported as well.

Kirk: So, um, it's typically where, where we get involved. 

Mehmet: Absolutely. I like to hear these stories, uh, Kirk. Now [00:07:00] you mentioned like in this story, but I can generalize this is this more, and I've seen it also myself. So, um, I think people rush to digital, digital transformation, and they ended up by seeing a lot of systems, all of a sudden, I'm talking about people in the IT department.

Mehmet: And some of the times even maybe, okay, they were consulted, but they were not the main stakeholders when, when choosing these, these systems. Did you, did you see this, you know, as one of the challenges that came with the digital transformation that affected the service management? And if yes, like how do you advise them usually to, to, to take this digital transformation and what are other challenges also have you seen?

Mehmet: Caused by a rush to do this digital, uh, transformation. 

Kirk: Yeah, yeah, it's a great question. And so what we've found is that typically the ITC area within digital transformation is just a single [00:08:00] stream. And I think that's really important that it's not all about ITC, obviously, but, um, you know, we really need to go back to the business and understand your what.

Kirk: What are you actually trying to achieve here? Like what? What is the intent for the digital transformation? Is it that you want to optimize the way in which you're operating at the moment? Um, are you looking at perhaps, um, building a more agile way to deliver services more quickly, more responsive to the market?

Kirk: Um, you know, you want to be better than your than your competitors. Um, what's the actual underlying need? Is the compliance need or is there some governance that's so I think fundamentally asking the question, what is driving the need for this digital transformation? I think underneath that, the ITSM part is, uh, is, is very, very complimentary in terms of, you know, uplifting people, process and tools.

Kirk: Um, but I totally agree with what you're saying about, you know, we don't want to rush to just [00:09:00] doing it because everyone else is, and it's this kind of new thing that's happening and it's very technology led. Um, we have, uh, developed, uh, an innovation. platform, uh, that we, that we often talk to our customers about, um, about building, uh, resilience in, in, in sort of three key levels, um, to be able to compliment the digital transformation.

Kirk: Um, but also understand that, you know, that the ITC impact just plays a very small part, but it's still an important stream as part of digital transformation. 

Mehmet: That's great. And, you know, I want to, So I want to little bit tell us about, you know, the three layers of capability, you call them, uh, for an effective digital business.

Mehmet: Like, uh, what are they? And can you provide maybe some examples on how me as an, uh, technology leader, as a CIO, CTO, I can enhance, uh, these capabilities and drive value to the business. 

Kirk: Absolutely. And I think, you know, [00:10:00] going going back to your previous question about, you know, the race for digital transformation.

Kirk: Um, you know, it's really important that we take a pragmatic approach. So what we've done is we've developed a what we call our innovation platform. And we typically talk to our customers about this. And there's three layers to that. So the first one is really what we call the baseline layer, and this is all about capability.

Kirk: So, um, this is focused at all the internal employees, internal operations, ensuring that the tools and technologies are simplified, they're modern, um, that they're easy to use, that IT services have been defined quite clearly and are scalable. Um, and we find that once we start to get those, that baseline layer in place around your controls, employees become.

Kirk: Empowered, they become productive and they become energized. So really what that means is that you've got, you've got your foundations, right? You've got your baseline layer in place. And so things like, you know, ensuring that those [00:11:00] services that you offer are clearly articulated that they are, that they can be clearly consumed, um, that you've got your controls in place, that if your major incident does happen, that you've, You've got that completely covered in terms of everyone is crystal clear on how you actually operate.

Kirk: Um, you're completely aligned with the business in terms of objectives and your maturity. So I think that's really, really important. So that's the baseline layer. And it's very much internally focused, um, ensuring, you know, ensure that you've got your house in order. So we typically do some work around that understanding, you know, what's your maturity, how can we get you to a, to a repeatable level of, uh, of being able to provide that baseline layer of service.

Kirk: The second layer really looks at what we call the integration layer, which is not necessarily technical integration, but it then helps you to, um, actually get some boundaries around your support. So very seldom do we see organizations that are operating all internally themselves, [00:12:00] so they need to partner with.

Kirk: Um, you know, industry leading, uh, other partners that can bring them value and bring the business value as well. So at the integration layer, this is where we're saying, this is how we operate and this is how you plug into how we operate. So again, if I go back to simple examples, like if, if you do have a major incident, Your downstream service providers, even your primary service providers, actually have an understanding of how you're going to run that and what the expectation is from them as well.

Kirk: So that integration layer is, is, is really important that, um, that you, uh, that your organization and your service providers and that whole ecosystem, um, is aligned and is working, working really, really well. So that does take some time. Um, to be able to build that, um, but it's a, it's a way of being able to strengthen the relationships with, um, you know, with your service providers and really provide them some confidence that not only have you got your house in order, but this is how we operate with our, with our primary service [00:13:00] providers as well.

Kirk: Um, and then finally, really what we call the next layer is what we call the innovation layer. And this is the exciting part. This is the part where, um, you know, you're really able to start to provide new innovations, um, new lines of business, uh, additional revenue streams, and how can you do that? Because not only have you got your baseline layer sorted, you've got all your service providers in your ecosystem, um, really well tuned, um, that you're able now to be able to.

Kirk: Um, anticipate things that are coming up that you want to be able to leverage. You're able to exploit technologies and be able to anticipate your customers needs as well. Um, you'll be able to stand up proof of concepts and, you know, work in an agile environment, you know, really, really quickly and provide value.

Kirk: Um, or be able to prove to the business, you know, this is going to work or this is not going to work. Um, you're also able to test and release and scale those innovations quite quickly. But what we [00:14:00] find is that you can't just go from having, you know, a low level of capability or no baseline to being able to innovate and really partner with your business to deliver, um, you know, new innovations.

Kirk: So that's why we like to break it down to those three layers and really provide a road map for maturity for our customers so that they Um, so they, they walk into this, you know, with eyes wide open that they're completely conscious about this is where we're at the moment. This is where we're heading to.

Kirk: And eventually, you know, we're going to be able to move into the innovation layer, which is, I guess the fun part. 

Mehmet: It is the fun part. And my favorite one, because I always believe that, you know, IT department, I mean, technology departments, I, you know, I start to hate the word IT a little bit, Kurt. I like to call them the technology department because information technology was there, like.

Mehmet: I would say like, yeah, 20 years ago, 15 years ago, even 10 years ago. But now with all what we are seeing, I think they are a proper [00:15:00] technology company within the, the, the, the whole company. And I liked, you know, the, the last layer, because I think when they reach that layer, they start to see maybe the metrics that they aimed for, because this is where they start to see some tangible from finance perspective, because.

Mehmet: Historically, you know, the technology department is tied to the CFO in the organization. And of course these guys are driven by loss and revenue. And this is where I believe, you know, they start to see the tangible results. Am I right? 

Kirk: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think being in a position to, um, you know, to be able to quickly stand up a proof of concept or to try some AI that's, that's, that's been released in a, in a very, um, small but tangible way.

Kirk: Um, at that innovation layer is, is really exciting. Uh, and it's this, I think it's the ability to be able to prove that to the, to the executive that, you know, we've got a house in [00:16:00] order, we're ready to move, um, and we can move at scale and in an agile way as well. 

Mehmet: Yeah, but I want to go back to the baseline a little bit, if you don't mind.

Mehmet: Because, you know, the KPIs there, and as to your point, it's like more internal work. Um, so what kind of KPIs you focus on when you start this? Is it, for example, the number of tickets raised by, you know, the, the employees? Is it like the time to resolution? Um, is it like surveys to do satisfaction of overall the services?

Mehmet: Like, as I, as an, uh, executive, like, CTO or CIO. What are the KPIs that I should be focusing when I'm building my baseline? 

Kirk: Absolutely. Absolutely. Look, I think internally there's, there's, there's a number of measures here. I think fundamentally one of the key questions that we ask, uh, and often we get some mixed results around this is, um, [00:17:00] what does the business think of, of technology right now?

Kirk: Uh, and there may be, you know, quarterly or half yearly or even annual surveys that are coming in. Um, but, but what's the actual general heartbeat of, of what, what you're providing to the business? And is that acceptable at the moment? I think that's first of all, where we start, because that obviously needs to be uplifted.

Kirk: But in terms of specific KPIs, you know, um, how, how can we anticipate? Um, you know what the business is actually asking for, and I certainly seen a changing and you would have to, you know, over the last five years of this whole, um, when people are turning up to their workplace now that they're expecting so much more than what they did five and, you know, even seven years ago.

Kirk: So they're using all of this technology in their consumer world. And when they come into, uh, come into work, they want a similar experience to things like, you know, service portals, uh, service catalogs that. Not only are providing, [00:18:00] um, anticipating what the customer's asking, but if they order something, then that works and it works really, really well.

Kirk: And I think fundamentally, the best way to be able to, um, to describe it is when technology kind of goes away. When, when there's no noise anymore and that there's things that have been anticipated and allow the business to focus on primarily what they want to focus on. Now, sometimes that's not really what, uh, what technology leaders want to hear, but it is the ultimate of being able to, um, know that you're, you're on the right path and you're being successful is that when the noise has gone away.

Kirk: Um, and I think that's, that's really important. In terms of specific KPIs, so all the ones that you've mentioned, uh, Mehmet, is certainly around if I'm contacting technology, um, did, did you, did you resolve exactly what I asked for? And did you do it fast? You know, I just, I just want to be able to walk away from it.

Kirk: So, If I ask for something, I want it, you know, I want to be able to understand, you know, when, [00:19:00] where, where it is through the fulfillment cycle. Um, if there is something that's gone wrong, if we've been disrupted, I want to have some, um, I want to have some confidence to know that technology owns this, uh, and that, um, we're going to be able to be restored quite quickly.

Kirk: And I think fundamentally one of the, the big practice areas that, um, that, that I think is, is so often overlooked, and that is root cause analysis. So there's often a backlog or a big old kind of pile of things that haven't been worked on for a while that we can get so much value out of. So how quickly are we turning around things that actually need some attention through root cause?

Kirk: Um, so we're on a, on a real, um, mission to help people to understand, you know, formal techniques of root cause analysis and being able to get through that backlog and remove all those problems that have perhaps been sitting in a backlog for, for even, even a couple of years. 

Mehmet: That sounds like very exciting.

Mehmet: I would say, like, if [00:20:00] I was still in my days in the IT department, I would be excited because you know, like these metrics and, you know, uh, having tangible results is, is in my opinion, uh, the dream of everyone who's sitting in the chair of a CIO or a CTO, or even IT director, operation manager, uh, because these things are, you know, Very critical to make sure that the business actually is up and running because we're living in an age, you know, if your systems are down, you are down, the business is down and you need to understand everything around that.

Mehmet: So 100%. Now, Kirk, I know you talk about the modern service management and you mentioned also that it's a center of digital transformation. In simple terms, what modern service management entails and why do you think it's crucial for businesses today? 

Kirk: Yeah, absolutely. Look, I think the whole journey of of of ITSM and ITIL, you know, from from its inception really sort of 30 plus years ago was very much about governance and controls.

Kirk: [00:21:00] Um, and as I was mentioning before, uh, the business has has moved on. So whilst Controls and governance is still important, and we certainly need to be able to build capability to be able to cope with that. You know, um, things like user experience are significantly important, um, you know, empowering service delivery.

Kirk: So extending that out, you know, for example, the services that you're providing to the business. Um, you know, how well is that the business is that the business making decisions on, you know, the road map and the feature sets and the releases for that. I think that's really, really important. Um, as part of modern service management.

Kirk: I think you alluded to it before me that when we were talking about. Um, you know, the old I. T. Area where it was pretty much a cost center moving towards more of a enabler to the business. So everything that enables the business, I think, is really underpins, you know, the modern service management. So [00:22:00] things like, um, you know, catalogs.

Kirk: Is that is that easy? Is it easy to be able to go to a portal and order things? Um, do we have our standard controls and pro and pro? in place. You know, can we restore an incident really quickly? Can we deal with, um, you know, major, major incidents? You know, are we getting any, any disruptions from changes that we're making?

Kirk: Is that all in order? Are we making sure that the business is plugging in? Um, are we capturing demand that's coming in from the business? I think is really, really important. So if you think about controls, um, just those those key controls are in place if you think about the experience that users are getting, I think about the partnership with the business.

Kirk: So what is the business asking for? And how can I T service management? How can that support that? And I think just around service delivery. So getting our services completely wrapped in alignment with what the business is asking for and being able to have a really mature way of having a [00:23:00] conversation to, um, to make those services better and to release features on those services that's aligned to the business.

Kirk: I think that's really the fundamentals of modern service management. 

Mehmet: Absolutely. Now with the fast, uh, Entry of the new technologies. And of course, I'm talking about AI here. Um, how do you see the future of, you know, the service management, uh, you know, the integration management and, you know, what you do currently actually, Kirk, um, because things are moving very fast.

Mehmet: And you know, we are not even, you know, every single guest, you know, in whatever domain they are. We agree that, yeah, things are moving faster than any time we have seen before. So when it comes to service management, like what are like some of the most important I would say things that they should be now focusing on.

Mehmet: And is it like things that [00:24:00] focus on agility of the organization? Is it like more about the resilience of the organization? Which areas they should really be now laser focused to keep up with the fast pace? 

Kirk: Absolutely. And I think you're absolutely right. The A. I. S. Here. It's moving at a pace that I don't think anybody's anticipated, really.

Kirk: But I kind of break it into two things. The first thing is, um, when we have technologies and technology vendors in particular coming to us all the time with, you know, new things and and and bleeding edge opportunities. I think that's one thing. So we kind of need to circle that and say, Well, That's great.

Kirk: And we want to, um, we want to try things in that space. Um, so, so I think being able to build up to proof of concepts and really test those things. But I think what's most important in those is making it fit for purpose for your organization. So while a vendor may be coming to you and saying, Hey, look, [00:25:00] we've just released this, the, all these cool new features and you know, it's really going to turn things.

Kirk: You know, around for you, and it's a game changer, you know, is that fit for purpose for your organization? So I think that's the kind of the first thing. The second part is, if we go back to our baseline layer that we were talking about before, in terms of the innovation platform, um, what are the things that we can use AI to start replacing some of those, those foundational elements?

Kirk: So such things as, um, you know, knowledge articles, uh, the creation of knowledge articles. So being able to have responses ready in such a way that, you know, um, if, if a user's logging into a portal and just got a question that is presented back to them, the information they're asking is presented back to them in a really human format.

Kirk: I think that is, um, that is critical. Um, being able to. You know, use AI to look across the, you know, the ecosystem, the landscape and, you know, bring, uh, information about events that are going on across [00:26:00] the, across the landscape through event management. And then what is the right, what, what process does that need to trigger?

Kirk: Is it just an alert? Is it just some information that we may just want to understand, or do we need to take action straight away? I think the power of AI and, and Both of those examples is significant, so I kind of try and break it down into two kind of areas. One is, you know, the new and the cool innovations that are coming at us.

Kirk: Certainly consider those, but kind of build proof of concepts and make sure they fit the purpose. And then the second part is really about. What are those standard controls that we've got in place now and how can we use AI to, um, you know, to really, uh, optimizing and draw, draw efficiencies from those as well.

Mehmet: Absolutely. Now, out of curiosity, Kirk, uh, because I know you've worked with different verticals, are there like some verticals which are usually more fast moving than others? [00:27:00] Um, and are you seeing like things changing now and everyone is going through the same pace? Because, you know, for example, historically we.

Mehmet: For example, maybe public sector are slow. FSR is a little bit slow because of the regulations and so on. But is it still the case? And are you seeing any, any change in that domain? 

Kirk: Yeah, absolutely. Um, look, they've all got the challenges. Um, I think, uh, certainly we've worked with some. Some, um, so some, some basically some startups that, um, that need to scale very quickly, their challenges and their proposition to us is quite different compared to, you know, an old government or an older government department.

Kirk: Um, and they're moving at different paces. I find that the, the, what I call the product ties, um, more modern, uh, startup type, uh, organizations that that area is super exciting. Um, you know, they, they don't want things like cabs. Um, because they, you know, they've got automated testing and release [00:28:00] cycles and releasing all the time.

Kirk: So what's the challenge to ensure that you've got a level of control? Um, you've got governance, but you also don't want to hold them back. So I think that's a really, really exciting part. And then I think in comparison to perhaps some of the, uh, the other, the other, uh, industry, such as, you know, government and sort of some of the larger organizations.

Kirk: That's still really building the baseline layer and trying to get the service integration layer in place so they can innovate. Um, so yeah, I think absolutely the different industries are providing just different challenges and bringing different problem statements to us that, uh, you know, that's stretching us to, um, to give them really solid solutions.

Mehmet: Absolutely. Now, the other thing that I want to ask you, Kirk, uh, if I am today sitting as a decision maker as a [00:29:00] CIO or as a CTO, and you know, I've got to really put some priorities for myself, right? Because I need to, to decide. I just came. Maybe I came to a place which is a little bit messy. Let's call it this way.

Mehmet: So what should be my number one focus? Should I go, for example, fix out the systems? Should I go focus on the employees satisfaction? Should I go for You know, try to do some efficiencies and cost savings. Like from your experience, what are like the priorities? Like, how do you prioritize them for, you know, and that's like, consider it as an advice for any CIO or CTO or technology executive who's listening to us today.

Kirk: Yeah, absolutely. Look, I think it's, um, there's a couple of, uh, sort of key inputs into that. And, um, I'm, I'm a little bit, uh, okay, biased towards, uh, what, what I think if I was sitting in that chair, but I think, you know, first [00:30:00] and foremost, we need to understand what the business is asking for from, from technology.

Kirk: Um, you know, is, is the, is the intent that, uh, technology is going to get closer to the business, enable the business, Uh, drive new lines of, of, of revenue, um, because if that's the case, then, uh, you know, we, we need to move fast in terms of, you know, getting the baseline layer integration layer in place and, um, to, to be able to, to be able to innovate.

Kirk: So it really depends on what the business is asking for, but I think, uh, personally for me, uh, I would certainly have a soft spot for what I'd call operational excellence. And this covers, you know, being able to operate, have my house in order, um, have, um, have a level of confidence to know that, you know, My people are high performing or we're moving towards, you know, running as a as a high performing team.

Kirk: Um, I have optimized, you know, my the way in which we're operating internally from a systems and a process [00:31:00] perspective and that overall the business is very, very happy with what we're delivering at this point in time. I think that's probably the key areas that I'd be very, very keen to be watching. Um, but I think absolutely operational excellence.

Kirk: Um, is, is something that would be very high on my, on my radar if I wasn't already in that place. 

Mehmet: Absolutely. Uh, Kurt, like again, like we, we move in a very fast world and like from, from your experience and even like the best practices can change from day to day now. So what is your advice for executives to stay also up to date with the latest, any resources, any maybe articles or maybe books you can suggest, uh, executives to have or to read?

Kirk: Absolutely. Um, look, we, we try to keep across it as much as we can, uh, at, uh, at our own, in our own organization. We, we do release a monthly newsletter as well. Um, so you're welcome to go to that and download it, but certainly I would, I [00:32:00] would suggest have a broad look at things. Um, there's so much good information available now.

Kirk: Um, it's really about, uh, ensuring that your senses are touching on, on, on a majority of things. So, you know, what's being released, what's new in terms of some of those technology releases, um, in terms of an IT service management, um, ITIL in particular has probably been a little bit slow, um, I think in terms of being able to, uh, really provide something that is simplistic in form.

Kirk: Um, uh, the I to four stuff was was just a little bit probably still a bit heavy for organizations to stop, um, and understand. So, um, anything really in that agile space that's going to allow you to keep moving really, really quickly. Um, uh, but also ensuring that everything you're doing is fit for purpose and also you've got your foundations right.

Kirk: So, um, hopefully that helps in terms of, um, I would probably take a broad view in [00:33:00] terms of 

Mehmet: plugging everything in. Indeed, indeed, it helps Kurt. Now, uh, as we almost reach the end, and this is something I always ask my guests. Um, so, uh, any final words, anything that maybe I missed to, to highlight on, feel free to, to mention it as final words and where people can get in touch with you.

Kirk: Absolutely. Look, thank you so much for the opportunity to have a chat today. It's been fantastic, and I certainly look forward to, uh, to, you know, I always look forward to having these conversations and really stretching my pleasure. So, um, I think, yeah, look, final words, really. Um, we're here to, uh, to help.

Kirk: organizations perhaps understand where they've got some gaps, um, and for us to come in and help. It doesn't matter whether we're helping internal teams, you know, whether we're coming in to help, um, certainly get in touch with us at servicemanagementspecialists. com. Um, you can have a 30 minute call with me, um, [00:34:00] backslash, Call.

Kirk: So feel free to jump on and take me up on that opportunity. More than happy to have a chat. But in terms of what we've covered today, I appreciate this opportunity. 

Mehmet: It was my pleasure, Kirk. And thank you again for, you know, being a guest on my show. Hopefully Between you and me, we try to, you know, to highlight what's the latest and the best practices when it comes to service management, which is a very important topic.

Mehmet: And I think it's the first time, you know, we discuss it, we discuss digital transformation, but we didn't look at that angle specifically. So thank you for sharing your knowledge with us here today, Kurt. And, uh, for the website that Kurt mentioned, it will be in the show notes, so you can Find it there. And finally, this is how I end my episodes.

Mehmet: Usually this is for the audience If you just discovered this podcast by luck, thank you for passing by. I hope you enjoyed it If you did, so please subscribe to get the latest Episodes updates and also share it with your friends and colleagues And if you are one of the [00:35:00] loyal people who keep coming back, thank you very much for keep coming back Uh, and if you have any questions any feedback any comments, feel free to reach out to me directly I'm available mainly on linkedin.

Mehmet: You can send your messages to me directly there. And if you're interested also to be on the show, don't hesitate to reach out. Geography is not a problem. As I always say, you can care because in, in, in Australia, I'm in Dubai. I have guests from the U S and so on. So please don't hesitate to reach out to me.

Mehmet: If you feel, you know, this, uh, podcast is something that you can add value to, to the audience. I would really appreciate that. Thank you very much for tuning in and we'll be again very soon.