#200 Tech, Business, and Entrepreneurship: A Deep Dive with Matt Watson

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From the heart of Dubai, where
tomorrow is being built today,

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to the world.
Welcome to the CTO Show with

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Mimet.
Here we redefine technology and

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reimagine possibilities.
With Mimet, delve into the

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riveting realms of a I
cybersecurity and digital

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technology.
Experience the thrilling highs

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and lows of startups, immerse
yourself in the spirit of

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entrepreneurship and witness the
future of Business Innovation

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being written in real time.
Now, without further ado, let's

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TuneIn and explore the future.
Hello and welcome back to a new

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episode of the City of Show with
Mehmet.

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Today I'm very pleased to have
with me Matt Watson, Matt.

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My way of doing the intros is I
keep it to the guest because you

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can introduce yourself better
than anyone else.

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So welcome to the City of Show.
Can you read the past to do

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about yourself and what you do?
Yeah, so Matt Watson, been a

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software developer for over 20
years, been an entrepreneur for

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over 20 years, started my first
company in 2003 and I mean since

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then I guess we're really truly
had a pod.

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So I've always been either a CTO
or actually the last most of the

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last 10 years been a CEO and CTO
both basically been a startup

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founder who also acted as a CTO
and that's that's actually my

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role today.
So yeah, but but been dabbling

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in entrepreneurship and and
software development, building

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SAS products for a long time.
That's cool.

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You know, maybe it's a little
bit very traditional question,

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but what gets you in, in the
tech world and entrepreneurship

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world, you know?
So I started doing computer

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programming actually when I was
around 13 to play games.

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So back then they were dial up
modem games that were all text.

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But I started doing some
scripting and basic programming

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then to basically play the games
for me while I was asleep and at

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school.
So that's how I first did

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programming and decided to go to
college for it.

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And you know, it was always just
very open minded to do extra

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things looking for, you know,
side projects, side hustles.

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And my first, my first company I
ever started was the same thing

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I had a car dealer came in to
buy a computer from me when I

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was working at Sears.
I worked at Sears, which is the

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department store in the US, or
it used to be, anyways, and I

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was in college and so I ended up
helping this car dealer like

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rewrite some software.
And a Long story short, a couple

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of years later somebody else
introduced me or that dealership

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introduced me to somebody else.
And that's how I ended up

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starting my first company.
So it was just somebody who

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knows, somebody who knows
somebody who needs some help.

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And I was just, you know, I sat
down with a guy and he told me

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what he wanted to do.
I'm like, sure, yeah, I can help

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you.
I was just very opportunistic,

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always been opportunistic,
right.

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And I think that was the key.
And as a software developer,

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I've now been the technical
cofounder three times and

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started my own company as like
the true founder one time.

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So, and I've had better success
as the technical cofounder,

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actually.
Oh, that's good to know now.

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But like you have this, I would
say mix between.

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Technology and business and you
know, like you describe yourself

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because I was checking you know
that the link in the profile,

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you know like a rare mix between
product developer type and you

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know someone who can do
business.

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So how do you strike this
balance between technology,

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product and business goals?
And you know, I'm sure like you

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face a lot of challenges down
the road.

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So how you overcome these
challenges?

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Well, 20 years into my career,
right, I've changed a lot from

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the very beginning.
You know, my my first job I ever

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had was for a company here in
Kansas City called Ticket

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Solutions, and they're a
reseller of like concert and

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sports tickets.
And they hired me and there was

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only like one other developer.
And then they fired that guy

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after like 6 weeks and told me I
was the lead developer because I

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was doing a better job than this
person.

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And they had like a bunch of
years of experience.

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I didn't know what in the world
I was doing.

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I was like a junior developer,
but I credit that job for a lot

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of my success because it thrusts
me into everything.

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Like I was talking to customers
every day.

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I was the one that was figuring
out like the product should do,

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how the product should work.
Like all of the United, all in

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the software and I think a lot
of software developers work in

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corporate offices and they hide
in a capable somewhere and they

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don't talk to anyone.
And you know I I think that

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experience for me was huge
getting out in front of the

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customers.
I mean very product focused,

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very customer focused.
I think had a huge impact on me

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and you know over the over many
years picking up all the other,

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all the other entrepreneurship
bits of like dealing with

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business partners and legal and
raising capital and selling a

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company and all the different
things that you go you go

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through, right, which is the
long journey of that, yeah.

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Great tool to hear this and I
think this will resonate

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actually.
You know like I have kind of a

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so many experience like both
from tech and business and

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people ask me like how, how, how
to manage this.

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So yeah, like actually
experiences is everything that

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we teach over the time.
So it's not like something you

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know, it came by by nature I
would say.

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So it's something I needed to to
develop over the years.

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Now as a CTO Matt, I think this
is you know we didn't discuss it

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much on the show but you know
when when you are A/C TO you are

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responsible of hiring A-Team and
scaling this team.

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So and you know for anyone who's
maybe first time founder as a

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CTO right or cofounder, let's
say.

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Who is looking for some high
level ideas or advices?

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So what you can share from your
experience about hiring tech

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talent and then scaling them?
Well, hiring is always hard, and

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interviewing software developers
is really difficult, right?

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You can give them all the tests
in the world, you can give them,

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you know, 5 phone interviews and
at the end of the day, you

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really still don't know if
they're going to be a good

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developer or not.
Like it's it's just really hard,

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you know?
I'm a huge fan in hybrid teams

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of I think you need both local
talent and remote talent and

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global talent, all of it, right?
I never did offshore in my

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entire career until about five
years ago, and my startup needed

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to hire like 10 developers and I
couldn't.

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There's no way I was going to be
able to afford local developers

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here in Kansas City, which were
like $150,000 a year for every

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one of them.
So that's when I made my first

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foray into it's using offshore
about five years ago, ended up

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hiring about 20 something people
for my startup to to help do

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offshore.
And we had a we still had local

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people in the office.
And I think learning how to

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leverage offshore is a really
critical skill because it's the

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only way you can really scale up
and and grow your teams.

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I mean, you can hire people, you
know, offshore for 60 percent,

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70% or more less than local
usually, depending on where you

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live and all the different
things.

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But learning how to work with
offshore, I think it's really

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important and just finding the
talent wherever you can find it,

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right, like remote anywhere,
could be anywhere in the world,

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could be anywhere in your
country there there's talent out

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there.
And I I think the other key to

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that is very quickly figuring
out if people are good or bad

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and if they're not good, you got
to get rid of them as fast as

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possible.
And sometimes it's just the the

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matchup of the type of work you
need to do on their skill set.

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Like they might be great at some
basic web app development, you

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know, building forms or
whatever, doing front end work.

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And then you you ask them to
build some complex back end, you

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know, queue processing, high
volume, high performing system.

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They don't know anything about
that like you've never done that

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before, right.
And so it's also matching up the

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right skill set, you know, be it
mobile front end work, back end

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work, like all these things.
So it's just hard.

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But if you if you hire the wrong
person, you've got to move on as

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fast as possible because
otherwise they can just sit and

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bend their wheels forever.
And the the hardest part about

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software developers is they can
actually be negative impact on

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the team, like they're just
sucking up everybody else's time

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and you're like literally better
off without them.

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They're just dragging you down
and and those are the things you

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have to be able to identify very
quickly where this person is

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just wasting everyone else's
time and they got to go.

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Yeah.
Now a question that came to my

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mind now Matt and coming back to
the idea now in in your current

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new venture like I mean you are
the CEO&CTO at the same time, so

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that is covered.
But in a normal scenario, we'd

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see like 2 cofounders, one who
is the CEO, the other is the

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CTO.
Now how important for you know

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these two to divide the roles
between them and who?

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Do you think you know, have to
have, I would say the say when

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it comes to validating the idea
because I hate it sometimes

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because you know, technical
people, they care much about

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technology, they don't want to
think too much about the

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business side of it.
But from your experience and

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because you know sometimes like
you're lucky like you're doing

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both at the same time but
sometimes we see like 2 founders

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you know taking different roles
but when it comes to the

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validation things get lost.
So from your experience what you

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can put on on this topic.
So it's a hard it's a hard topic

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and I would say for anybody who
once been entrepreneur, the

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first time you go to be an
entrepreneur and start a

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company, I wouldn't really
suggest doing it alone.

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I would suggest having a
business partner and you know if

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you have success with that and
later on you feel like you can

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go be an entrepreneur by
yourself and be a solo founder,

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go for it.
But the first time in if you're

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if you're thinking about doing
it, I would consider finding a

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cofounder for sure and you
really want somebody who has the

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opposite skill set as you.
So if you're really, you said if

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you're really good with the
technology, you can build

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anything.
The problem is it doesn't matter

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what you build if nobody knows
it exists.

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You don't know who your customer
is.

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You don't know how to find those
customers and sell the product.

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Doom.
Doomed already Money, right?

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You gotta know how to sell your
product or you're never going to

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sell it.
I mean, that's reality.

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And if you build it, they will
come, It's not really a thing.

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So engineering, like software
engineering is actually the

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easiest part of all of it.
Like I can hire software

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developers in the Philippines
for like a few dollars an hour

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to engineer anything, doesn't
matter.

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I can, I can, I can hire them
for very low cost engineer

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almost anything.
What's super valuable is, is

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being able to know what to
engineer right the product side

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of it, knowing what to build and
then all the go to market

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strategy of the business like
that is the biggest

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differentiator and value of a
company is the go to market

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strategy knowing who is selling
too and how do we sell to them

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because without that the
engineering doesn't even matter.

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You you like you you can't even
sell it, so you can't grow and

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scale the business.
So I mean it all depends on the

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type of business that you have.
I also highly recommend if

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somebody wants to be a first
time entrepreneur to consider

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doing some kind of professional
services based company, which I

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think is is your your kind of
company defaulting?

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That's a lot easier and you
don't necessarily have to have a

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Cofi for that yourself.
You can just be the best React

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developer or whatever consultant
and next thing, next thing you

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know you've got people asking
you for help with their React

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projects and that kind of grow
and scale that eventually maybe

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you hire somebody else to help
you do these React projects or

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whatever.
That's way easier to do than

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building a SaaS product.
Building a SaaS product sounds

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great, sounds exciting, you want
to like make a billion dollars

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or whatever.
But it's very, very hard and it

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takes years years to even build
a product, get it to market and

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make revenue usually.
So professional services is a

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much easier thing to do,
especially as a first time

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entrepreneur.
That's exactly.

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Yeah.
Like thank you for bringing this

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up man.
This is exactly what I'm I'll

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try to do and you know this is a
trend now I'm I'm seeing which

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is they call it back the
productized service.

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So where you you package, you
know.

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A product into a service and you
offer it in a subscription model

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and you can do it in different
ways.

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What other like, you know,
because you mentioned this, like

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what are the areas like you
other than you know, building a

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service where you can see
entrepreneurs who want to test

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waters they can go with.
And I'm asking you because also

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you have your own podcast and
I'm sure like you, you discuss a

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lot of that or on your show as
well.

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So what are some of the trends
that you are seeing, like it's

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picking up now.
Well, I think the other key if

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you want to be an entrepreneur
is is networking.

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It's who you know, like I said,
I've been the technical

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cofounder basically three times,
right?

241
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,960
And it was all from people,
people I knew or somebody who

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knows somebody that referred
somebody to me.

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00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,000
And they're like, hey, if you
ever need a really good tech

244
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,640
guy, you need to call, he's your
guy.

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Call him.
Don't call anyone else.

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Call Matt.
Right.

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00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,840
So you know, I I think that's
that's part of the key is, is

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who you know and networking and
there are lots of very smart

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00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,200
other entrepreneurs or what I'd
really say is business people

250
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,240
like somebody who works in
specific industry.

251
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So for example I work in home
services.

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So it's somebody who works in in
home services or could be

253
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medical or or whatever the
industry is that understands the

254
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:40,440
problems.
The industry, they're like, you

255
00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:42,200
know what?
If somebody would build some

256
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,840
software to solve this problem,
it would be huge.

257
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You just need to find that
person, right?

258
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You need to network and be able
to find those people that they

259
00:14:50,490 --> 00:14:53,730
have the great ideas, they
understand the industry.

260
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They also have connections in
the industry, right?

261
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They potentially know how to
sell it, sell it to all of that.

262
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They just don't know how to
build fraud.

263
00:15:01,970 --> 00:15:05,090
And no, it's not easy to
medically just find these

264
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people.
If you listen to the show, I get

265
00:15:06,890 --> 00:15:09,730
it.
But the more networking you do,

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the better off you are.
And if there's any one tip I can

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ever give people, it's You're
way, way better off being best

268
00:15:16,740 --> 00:15:19,900
known for what you do than being
the best at what you do.

269
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It doesn't really matter if
you're the best there is at what

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00:15:22,820 --> 00:15:25,220
you do like nobody's even going
to know that you do it.

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You want to be the best known.
Best known beats best every

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00:15:30,100 --> 00:15:32,260
single time.
We buy products and services

273
00:15:32,260 --> 00:15:35,020
every single day from companies,
restaurants, all these things

274
00:15:35,460 --> 00:15:38,100
that are just the best known.
The biggest franchise is the

275
00:15:38,140 --> 00:15:40,260
biggest brand.
They don't have the best

276
00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:43,180
product, but you don't know the
companies that have the best

277
00:15:43,180 --> 00:15:44,460
products.
You've never heard of them,

278
00:15:44,500 --> 00:15:47,660
right?
So it it's building your own

279
00:15:47,660 --> 00:15:50,540
brand and being best known and
and networking and things like

280
00:15:50,540 --> 00:15:52,380
LinkedIn are great for that.
Like what you're doing with your

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00:15:52,420 --> 00:15:58,060
podcast.
Do you business your brand your

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00:15:58,340 --> 00:16:01,180
piece and you never know if
somebody like me is going to

283
00:16:01,340 --> 00:16:04,820
think oh you know what he could
help them with this and and

284
00:16:04,820 --> 00:16:07,300
refer and next thing you know
you're off to the races doing

285
00:16:07,300 --> 00:16:09,780
something right.
So the networking part of it is

286
00:16:09,780 --> 00:16:11,860
huge and being best known for
what you do.

287
00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:15,660
I agree 100%.
And I was telling you also

288
00:16:15,660 --> 00:16:20,420
before we start the recording
that doing a podcast and not

289
00:16:20,420 --> 00:16:24,620
only the podcast.
I mean you need to let the world

290
00:16:24,620 --> 00:16:29,820
know about you and one of the
things that I learned the hard

291
00:16:29,820 --> 00:16:34,220
way and like going to meetups
and trying to find.

292
00:16:34,970 --> 00:16:39,170
Groups of people who meet from
time to time and you know there

293
00:16:39,170 --> 00:16:41,770
you would by the way you can get
a lot of ideas from there

294
00:16:41,770 --> 00:16:45,290
because you would see people
sitting discussing some of their

295
00:16:45,290 --> 00:16:49,330
challenges and this is where you
know some of my ideas.

296
00:16:49,810 --> 00:16:53,090
It came to my mind.
One of the things actually like

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00:16:53,090 --> 00:16:56,930
you know the the, the one of the
service that ioffer with my

298
00:16:56,930 --> 00:17:00,970
business partner it came because
I was going to customers when I

299
00:17:00,970 --> 00:17:03,690
was working in the corporate
world and they kept mentioning.

300
00:17:04,089 --> 00:17:05,970
Something, but you know, they
told me, you know what?

301
00:17:06,050 --> 00:17:08,970
Like no one told us about this
and you know, like we think we

302
00:17:08,970 --> 00:17:11,730
can do it, said Okay.
Let's let's try to build

303
00:17:11,730 --> 00:17:15,490
something around it.
So it's always been talking to

304
00:17:15,490 --> 00:17:19,290
people to get ideas because, and
I think you would agree with me

305
00:17:19,290 --> 00:17:25,450
man, you don't want to build a
product which you try to find a

306
00:17:25,450 --> 00:17:28,890
problem that it's solved, you
know, to build a product like

307
00:17:28,890 --> 00:17:32,330
how how you know.
Because you've been into this

308
00:17:32,330 --> 00:17:35,210
for a long time also Matt, like
why do you think entrepreneurs

309
00:17:35,570 --> 00:17:38,850
do this mistake?
Like why we see it repeating

310
00:17:39,130 --> 00:17:42,610
again and again and all we we
repeated on you know, I repeat

311
00:17:42,610 --> 00:17:44,250
on my show.
I'm sure that you have discussed

312
00:17:44,250 --> 00:17:48,130
it also with a lot of people,
but why we see people do the

313
00:17:48,130 --> 00:17:50,050
same mistake.
What's the main reason?

314
00:17:50,530 --> 00:17:53,890
Well, I I think to some degree I
made this mistake and with one

315
00:17:53,890 --> 00:17:57,690
of.
My and part of it was I was

316
00:17:57,690 --> 00:17:59,930
trying to solve my own problems.
I'm like, you know what, I have

317
00:17:59,930 --> 00:18:02,400
this problem.
If I have this problem,

318
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,240
everybody must.
So I'm going to go build things

319
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,880
to solve.
And you know we, we built a good

320
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:11,200
business.
You know, we, we grew it to

321
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,480
doing millions of dollars a year
in revenue and we sold it and

322
00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,600
and whatever.
But it was terribly hard.

323
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,320
It was brutally hard.
And the other mistake that I

324
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,040
made was we overcomplicated it.
Like, you know, you have to be

325
00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:28,080
very careful of building like a
product versus like a platform.

326
00:18:28,770 --> 00:18:31,810
And as developers, we tend to
build platforms.

327
00:18:31,850 --> 00:18:35,770
And what I mean by that is so
instead of having like one

328
00:18:35,770 --> 00:18:38,730
feature, like one small thing
that you do and you're like the

329
00:18:38,730 --> 00:18:42,450
best at it, you keep adding more
features, more features,

330
00:18:42,450 --> 00:18:44,730
features, features more like
other products.

331
00:18:44,730 --> 00:18:47,690
You're like, now when I sell it,
you can sign up for this and

332
00:18:47,690 --> 00:18:49,970
this and this and this.
And we do all the things for

333
00:18:50,250 --> 00:18:53,250
you, right?
For those of us who lived in the

334
00:18:53,250 --> 00:18:57,260
90s, remember like the like the
Trapper Keeper, of all the

335
00:18:57,260 --> 00:18:59,340
things it does all the things,
holds all the things.

336
00:19:00,460 --> 00:19:02,740
People don't buy those and
they're terrible to to sell.

337
00:19:02,740 --> 00:19:06,820
Because if I call you and I'm
like, hey, I want you to buy my

338
00:19:06,820 --> 00:19:10,540
thing, if you will help you like
okay, yes or no, I'll buy it for

339
00:19:10,740 --> 00:19:13,020
like okay.
I need to have like an hour long

340
00:19:13,100 --> 00:19:15,780
pull and explain the 27 things
that we do.

341
00:19:16,140 --> 00:19:18,460
And by the way, I need to get
every stakeholder of every

342
00:19:18,460 --> 00:19:21,020
department, your company to also
come because this is going to

343
00:19:21,020 --> 00:19:23,580
affect all of them like you're
just done.

344
00:19:23,580 --> 00:19:25,140
Like forget it.
Like forget it.

345
00:19:25,220 --> 00:19:27,020
It's too complicated of a sell,
right.

346
00:19:27,020 --> 00:19:30,100
And so that's the struggle that
we have too is we

347
00:19:30,100 --> 00:19:32,500
overcomplicate.
Well, we just add this other

348
00:19:32,580 --> 00:19:34,180
feature.
We just add this other product.

349
00:19:34,220 --> 00:19:37,580
We add this other product, but
it overcomplicated the product.

350
00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:39,980
So it's hard to sell, it's hard
to market.

351
00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:43,380
And that was the problem I had.
So mine was actually a company

352
00:19:43,380 --> 00:19:46,100
called Stack Buy and we were
selling application monitoring

353
00:19:46,180 --> 00:19:47,700
related stuff to software
developers.

354
00:19:48,140 --> 00:19:51,950
So we did error tracking, we
clicked all their errors,

355
00:19:51,950 --> 00:19:55,950
clicked all their logs, server
monitoring and then we did APM

356
00:19:55,950 --> 00:19:57,910
like code level performance
tracking.

357
00:19:57,910 --> 00:20:01,110
And you know now today you have
companies like Data Dog, New

358
00:20:01,110 --> 00:20:04,830
Relic and stuff to do this.
And we we were doing this like

359
00:20:04,830 --> 00:20:08,110
10 years ago when we started
somewhere kind of time frame to

360
00:20:08,110 --> 00:20:10,430
them.
But because we had so many

361
00:20:10,430 --> 00:20:13,390
different products, it just made
it complicated to sell and

362
00:20:13,390 --> 00:20:16,590
explain to people where if we
would have only done logging we

363
00:20:16,590 --> 00:20:19,710
would have been more successful.
Like we just over complicated

364
00:20:19,710 --> 00:20:21,430
it.
And even to this day for those

365
00:20:21,430 --> 00:20:23,350
of listening, if you use
something like data dog, like

366
00:20:23,350 --> 00:20:26,390
you log in there today and
you're like fully fit things in

367
00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:30,230
here that using and complicated,
give me the one thing I need and

368
00:20:30,230 --> 00:20:31,670
take the rest of this crap away,
right.

369
00:20:31,670 --> 00:20:34,590
And that that's the point is
products easily become over

370
00:20:34,590 --> 00:20:36,670
complicated.
As a developer or sources

371
00:20:36,670 --> 00:20:39,710
entrepreneur, you get in this
mindset of like, well, if I just

372
00:20:39,790 --> 00:20:43,150
add this one more thing, we'll
be able to sell the product

373
00:20:43,230 --> 00:20:48,200
right that that.
Yeah, 100%.

374
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:53,000
And because I worked as you know
a presales consultant and a

375
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,720
sales consultant.
So this is the best that myself

376
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,400
I thought, oh, if I tell the
customer about all the cool

377
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,000
features we have, you know, like
they will buy, you know, because

378
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,640
you know I'm not the founder,
but I'm one on the on the ground

379
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,800
trying to sell the product
whether it's from technical

380
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,560
perspective or sales
perspective.

381
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,000
But of course I was lucky enough
to learn after a couple of

382
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,990
months when I started in this.
Career path.

383
00:21:18,150 --> 00:21:20,350
The customer cares about the
problem that they have.

384
00:21:20,350 --> 00:21:23,350
They don't care about how many
features I've got right?

385
00:21:23,350 --> 00:21:27,150
So the question that they will
ask me okay, can you tell us how

386
00:21:27,150 --> 00:21:32,830
you are solving our problem or
how your solution is performing

387
00:21:32,830 --> 00:21:34,430
better than whatever we have
now?

388
00:21:34,910 --> 00:21:38,070
You need something tangible that
people can relate to.

389
00:21:38,350 --> 00:21:41,830
If you just show them better
too, that's the thing.

390
00:21:42,030 --> 00:21:44,070
You can't go in there and be
like, hey, I know you do this

391
00:21:44,070 --> 00:21:47,750
thing today and I have a better
version that is, you know, a

392
00:21:47,750 --> 00:21:49,230
little cheaper.
It doesn't matter.

393
00:21:49,550 --> 00:21:51,430
They have other other higher
priorities.

394
00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:53,790
They're like, their hair is on
fire and their boss is going to

395
00:21:53,790 --> 00:21:56,510
fire them because they have like
these ten major problems.

396
00:21:56,950 --> 00:21:58,830
And here you come and you're
like, well, I could save you

397
00:21:58,830 --> 00:22:02,390
$500 a month.
Like, dude, I don't $500 a year

398
00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:05,150
old me.
Our business is going to die

399
00:22:05,150 --> 00:22:07,190
because of these serious
problem, right.

400
00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:10,110
So that's The thing is, it's
just because you think you can

401
00:22:10,110 --> 00:22:12,250
do something that's marginally
better.

402
00:22:12,570 --> 00:22:16,130
They have bigger major issues.
And by the way, if you can

403
00:22:16,130 --> 00:22:19,250
identify what those bigger major
issues are, go solve.

404
00:22:20,810 --> 00:22:25,450
Yeah, 100% and this brings me
you know to the to the question

405
00:22:25,450 --> 00:22:28,210
that you know to like to stay.
I would do it in two stages.

406
00:22:28,210 --> 00:22:35,890
So you said like we tend as
technical people, we we like to

407
00:22:35,890 --> 00:22:38,170
build platforms and put all
things.

408
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:43,080
So this is I think where having
the MVP very very simple is key,

409
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,200
right?
So from your experience, like

410
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,040
how's when you say keep it
simple, you know we keep it

411
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,000
stupid simple right?
This is what what the lead even

412
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,280
model mentioned.
So how what what is simple?

413
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,120
I mean should it be just one
problem to be solved?

414
00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:01,960
Like they should figure out the
UI.

415
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,610
Should be easy.
When we say simple MVP, what do

416
00:23:06,610 --> 00:23:09,130
we mean really?
And I'm asking you this question

417
00:23:09,130 --> 00:23:13,130
to explain to someone who is
maybe now about to design their

418
00:23:13,130 --> 00:23:16,530
Mvp's and they want to put into
consideration Okay, what should

419
00:23:16,530 --> 00:23:20,010
we put as minimal, really
minimal viable product.

420
00:23:21,090 --> 00:23:24,330
So I just started a new company,
it's called At Capacity and it's

421
00:23:24,330 --> 00:23:27,890
digital marketing related
technology for managing pay per

422
00:23:27,890 --> 00:23:31,010
click ads and other stuff for
primarily home services

423
00:23:31,010 --> 00:23:31,690
companies.
Okay.

424
00:23:32,210 --> 00:23:34,730
And we're literally about to go
live with our first clients.

425
00:23:34,730 --> 00:23:37,290
You know we've we've been in
like MVP phase for the last four

426
00:23:37,290 --> 00:23:40,450
months, right?
And so on a weekly basis, I have

427
00:23:40,450 --> 00:23:43,490
to, I have to think about like
well, I'm not sure how we're

428
00:23:43,490 --> 00:23:45,730
going to do this in the future.
I don't know if we need this

429
00:23:45,730 --> 00:23:47,930
feature in the future.
I don't know if we need this

430
00:23:47,930 --> 00:23:50,370
like extra flexibility in the
product.

431
00:23:51,330 --> 00:23:53,490
So we're not going to do it.
We're not going to build it like

432
00:23:53,490 --> 00:23:57,370
that's a future problem.
Like if if we need this extra

433
00:23:57,370 --> 00:24:01,930
functionality, this extra like
flexibility in the settings or

434
00:24:01,930 --> 00:24:04,570
whatever it is, that's a future
map problem.

435
00:24:04,570 --> 00:24:08,810
Like it's not a MVP map problem
today of getting the product

436
00:24:08,810 --> 00:24:11,010
live, right.
So that's one way I like to

437
00:24:11,010 --> 00:24:13,970
think about it is like, can this
be a future problem?

438
00:24:13,970 --> 00:24:16,370
Like if we have to solve this,
we'll solve later.

439
00:24:16,370 --> 00:24:17,890
We don't have to solve it today,
right.

440
00:24:17,890 --> 00:24:21,170
How do we keep this simple and
get the product to market?

441
00:24:21,610 --> 00:24:26,250
And you know, customers,
there's, you know, when you talk

442
00:24:26,250 --> 00:24:29,530
about simple too, you talk about
like the user experience and UI.

443
00:24:29,530 --> 00:24:33,810
And something to be said for
like a really simple UI where

444
00:24:33,810 --> 00:24:36,090
it's like, man, this is so
simple, it looks like you build

445
00:24:36,090 --> 00:24:39,570
it over the weekend and they're
like, there should be more to

446
00:24:39,570 --> 00:24:42,130
it, right.
So at some degree there's you

447
00:24:42,130 --> 00:24:44,530
got to have like the minimal
amount of feature set that it

448
00:24:44,530 --> 00:24:47,770
looks like it's featured
complete to some degree, right.

449
00:24:47,770 --> 00:24:50,810
Not like, oh, you only did like
half of it like dinner eat, you

450
00:24:51,410 --> 00:24:53,650
forgot the rest of the meal,
right.

451
00:24:53,650 --> 00:24:56,130
Like they've got it.
You got to wrap it out a little

452
00:24:56,130 --> 00:25:00,180
bit, but you can also, like in
our product today, we don't have

453
00:25:00,180 --> 00:25:02,500
any reporting.
We have not built any reporting.

454
00:25:02,540 --> 00:25:04,660
But you know what, our customers
are still buying it.

455
00:25:04,740 --> 00:25:07,100
But we know we're going to have
to build reporting like that's

456
00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:09,980
another example of this.
But we could just throw together

457
00:25:09,980 --> 00:25:13,740
kind of a MVP, MVP version of
some reporting, like some really

458
00:25:13,740 --> 00:25:16,220
simple reporting.
Doesn't have to be the world's

459
00:25:16,220 --> 00:25:19,500
best reporting with custom
dashboards and advanced

460
00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:22,180
filtering and emailing of the
reports and like all this kind

461
00:25:22,180 --> 00:25:23,620
of crazy stuff that you build,
right.

462
00:25:23,620 --> 00:25:25,980
It's like how do you make it the
simplest thing possible?

463
00:25:26,890 --> 00:25:28,890
So at least when you do a demo
to a client, you're like, yeah,

464
00:25:28,890 --> 00:25:31,930
we have reporting, TA da
reporting, right?

465
00:25:32,050 --> 00:25:34,890
And that's where you have to
think about when it's like

466
00:25:34,890 --> 00:25:37,930
minimal, like what is the
minimal thing we need to do so

467
00:25:37,930 --> 00:25:41,210
we can build trust customer cuz
that is the most important thing

468
00:25:41,250 --> 00:25:44,450
that's building for us.
And that's the hardest thing as

469
00:25:44,450 --> 00:25:46,410
a startup, right.
People always joke about you

470
00:25:46,410 --> 00:25:50,530
don't get fired for buying IBM
or Cisco and stuff like that,

471
00:25:50,530 --> 00:25:52,360
right?
Big companies, they will spend

472
00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:54,040
big money.
Nobody wants to get fired from

473
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,800
making a wrong decision, taking
a bunch of extra risk, right?

474
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,600
That's the hard thing as a
startup is really what you're

475
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,240
asking for with these first
customers is their trust.

476
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,920
Their trust to say, you know
what, they're willing to take

477
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,440
the leap to use this little
startup to do this thing.

478
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:14,320
So that trust is really valuable
and you've got to make sure you

479
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,890
build things from the right
quality perspective and solving

480
00:26:18,890 --> 00:26:21,570
the problem perspective to meet
that trust, to earn their trust,

481
00:26:21,570 --> 00:26:24,770
to get the referrals, to get the
next clients without over

482
00:26:24,770 --> 00:26:28,090
complicating everything and in
the code.

483
00:26:28,090 --> 00:26:30,490
It's really easy to over
complicate everything and build

484
00:26:30,490 --> 00:26:35,610
it for large scale enterprise.
And the other big mistake that

485
00:26:35,610 --> 00:26:40,660
people make is they treat their
startup as the time to go learn

486
00:26:40,660 --> 00:26:43,380
some new programming language or
some new database or some new

487
00:26:43,380 --> 00:26:46,180
front end framework or whatever.
Nope, screw all of that terrible

488
00:26:46,180 --> 00:26:48,460
idea.
Pick the most boring thing

489
00:26:48,460 --> 00:26:49,780
you've known you've known all
these years.

490
00:26:51,060 --> 00:26:53,860
Simple programming language,
simple database, simple front

491
00:26:53,860 --> 00:26:56,620
end framework.
Now is not the time to be

492
00:26:57,260 --> 00:27:02,860
learning Rust and MongoDB with a
true serverless deployment on

493
00:27:02,860 --> 00:27:04,820
cloud Flare.
Whatever crazy ID you have like

494
00:27:04,820 --> 00:27:06,580
that is gonna slow you down in
so many ways.

495
00:27:06,580 --> 00:27:09,370
So we talk about simple.
It's the technology stack has

496
00:27:09,370 --> 00:27:12,290
got to be simple, too.
It's It's got to be simple all

497
00:27:12,290 --> 00:27:15,850
the way through.
Yeah, that's that's really, you

498
00:27:15,850 --> 00:27:19,570
know, exactly the, the answer I
was looking for.

499
00:27:19,570 --> 00:27:22,850
It's spot on now if I'm not
mistaken.

500
00:27:22,890 --> 00:27:27,250
I've seen you, Matt, speaking
about people spending lots of

501
00:27:27,250 --> 00:27:32,490
money on building the MVP and
this is where you know they can

502
00:27:32,490 --> 00:27:38,820
go and try to minimize.
I would say as much as possible.

503
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:44,420
You know these costs.
So again from your opinion what

504
00:27:44,420 --> 00:27:50,460
is the acceptable amount out say
of money that should be spent on

505
00:27:50,460 --> 00:27:54,260
an MVP Because at the end of the
MVP might succeed and might not.

506
00:27:54,260 --> 00:27:57,340
So it's a risk.
And the second one what where

507
00:27:57,340 --> 00:28:00,220
they can go?
You mentioned Philippines for

508
00:28:00,220 --> 00:28:03,180
example, right?
So, but again like.

509
00:28:03,780 --> 00:28:06,860
How especially if someone is in
the US or maybe someone in Dubai

510
00:28:06,860 --> 00:28:08,580
and they want to deal with
remote teams.

511
00:28:08,580 --> 00:28:16,820
So this fact of trust I would
say or like making sure that the

512
00:28:16,820 --> 00:28:20,100
quality it would be up to the
level that they expect.

513
00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:23,260
So how how they can deal with
the with this issue?

514
00:28:24,020 --> 00:28:25,580
So there's a couple topics
there.

515
00:28:25,580 --> 00:28:30,420
And so starting out is OK, I sit
down with somebody else.

516
00:28:30,420 --> 00:28:32,340
We got a business idea.
We need to build the MVP.

517
00:28:32,340 --> 00:28:34,380
We need to build a product.
How are we going to do it?

518
00:28:34,980 --> 00:28:38,620
Well, if neither one of you know
how to write code and build it,

519
00:28:38,860 --> 00:28:42,340
that's your first hurdle, right?
So either you can write code or

520
00:28:42,340 --> 00:28:45,100
you have to be able to write
checks and you better prepared

521
00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:48,700
to write a lot of checks and
have a lot of money to invest in

522
00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:51,140
development, right?
I mean if you can write the

523
00:28:51,140 --> 00:28:54,500
code, you're way better off, you
know, at least if somebody on

524
00:28:54,500 --> 00:28:57,540
the team can help write the
code, build, build the MVP.

525
00:28:58,700 --> 00:29:01,700
And so one way that people do
that also is they may give up

526
00:29:01,860 --> 00:29:05,860
stock or sweat equity or
whatever, find find people that

527
00:29:06,060 --> 00:29:08,700
comes like their little side
project to help do stuff like

528
00:29:09,180 --> 00:29:12,020
you can get creative that way
and and figure out some way to

529
00:29:12,020 --> 00:29:16,660
will this thing into existence.
You know for my first company it

530
00:29:16,660 --> 00:29:19,860
was I had a full time job and
then I would go home and work

531
00:29:19,940 --> 00:29:24,180
three or four or five hours at
every single evening building

532
00:29:24,220 --> 00:29:27,220
this startup, building this
company right for over a year.

533
00:29:27,710 --> 00:29:31,230
And then when I finally was able
to work full time for it and

534
00:29:31,230 --> 00:29:34,590
take a a small salary, it was a
smaller salary than my original

535
00:29:34,590 --> 00:29:37,150
job, right.
So you know even as a developer

536
00:29:37,150 --> 00:29:41,470
you got to be willing to put in
the the hours and and probably

537
00:29:41,470 --> 00:29:44,270
take a salary cut and all those
kind of things to get this thing

538
00:29:44,270 --> 00:29:47,430
going right.
So you can either write the code

539
00:29:47,430 --> 00:29:51,910
or you got to write checks and
if if you're probably going to

540
00:29:51,910 --> 00:29:54,550
need potentially depends on the
product, right?

541
00:29:54,550 --> 00:29:59,180
It could be $20,000, could be
$50,000, could be $100,000.

542
00:29:59,900 --> 00:30:02,180
If it's something really
complicated, it could be

543
00:30:02,180 --> 00:30:03,700
millions of dollars.
If you're like, hey, I need to

544
00:30:03,700 --> 00:30:06,500
build this product that's going
to launch satellite space, like

545
00:30:07,020 --> 00:30:08,460
probably going to need a lot of
money, right?

546
00:30:08,460 --> 00:30:11,900
Or I want to build Cooper and
I'm going to need like millions

547
00:30:11,900 --> 00:30:13,700
of dollars legal fees to
actually get this done.

548
00:30:14,460 --> 00:30:18,300
Like the type of business you're
doing may need a lot of capital,

549
00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:20,780
right?
But for a lot of things I would

550
00:30:20,780 --> 00:30:24,390
say you probably need maybe
$50,000 or something like that.

551
00:30:24,390 --> 00:30:29,830
I mean my startup we built, I've
probably spent about 50 or

552
00:30:29,830 --> 00:30:36,750
$60,000 building my my new
company's product and I built

553
00:30:36,790 --> 00:30:38,510
all of it.
I I did a little bit of the

554
00:30:38,510 --> 00:30:42,870
development, resolve the product
strategy and design and that

555
00:30:42,870 --> 00:30:44,710
part of it didn't do the
writing.

556
00:30:45,070 --> 00:30:48,590
So and I had three developers in
the Philippines doing all the

557
00:30:48,590 --> 00:30:53,740
work and you know that's how I
was able to spend you know

558
00:30:54,380 --> 00:30:58,660
$15,000 a month kind of budget
engineering the product over

559
00:30:58,660 --> 00:31:01,260
four months where it's like
probably 60 grand or so plus my

560
00:31:01,260 --> 00:31:03,940
time.
And we have a product, we have

561
00:31:03,940 --> 00:31:08,020
our first customers, we have
revenue, we are in market 60

562
00:31:08,020 --> 00:31:10,140
grand.
So that that's been really good.

563
00:31:10,140 --> 00:31:12,460
So you talk about finding
talent.

564
00:31:12,460 --> 00:31:15,660
So I actually own a company in
the Philippines that does

565
00:31:15,660 --> 00:31:17,100
software development for other
people.

566
00:31:17,580 --> 00:31:20,540
I started five years ago.
We have 300 employees called

567
00:31:20,540 --> 00:31:24,510
full scale.
And you know there are companies

568
00:31:24,510 --> 00:31:27,630
like us all over the world.
And you know, of course there's

569
00:31:27,630 --> 00:31:30,150
lots of them in India, there's
lots of them in Latin America,

570
00:31:30,950 --> 00:31:33,270
My company's in Philippines.
They're smart developers all

571
00:31:33,270 --> 00:31:37,190
over the world.
And you can hire people from a

572
00:31:37,190 --> 00:31:41,830
lot of these, a lot of these
places for half, 60% less, 70%

573
00:31:41,830 --> 00:31:45,670
less than in the US or other
other major markets.

574
00:31:46,070 --> 00:31:49,870
And the issue is, is trust you,
you hit it earlier, it's 100%

575
00:31:49,870 --> 00:31:52,420
trust.
Like, yeah, I can go to Upwork

576
00:31:52,460 --> 00:31:55,300
or one of these places and
randomly find some developer,

577
00:31:55,300 --> 00:31:57,700
but how do I know if they're,
how do I trust them, right.

578
00:31:57,740 --> 00:32:04,340
And so at full scale, that's a
big key to our growth is it's

579
00:32:04,340 --> 00:32:06,060
trust.
It's how do you build trust in

580
00:32:06,060 --> 00:32:08,740
your potential customers.
A lot of that is from networking

581
00:32:08,740 --> 00:32:10,580
and referrals and stuff like
that.

582
00:32:11,740 --> 00:32:14,420
But that's the hard part, right?
When you go to hire a dev team,

583
00:32:14,420 --> 00:32:17,920
especially if you're a startup,
your company is going to be

584
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,200
successful or die, may bankrupt
yourself because you hired the

585
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,240
wrong developers, you invested
that $50,000 and it didn't work.

586
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,040
So it's like now you have
$50,000 in debt or you lost 50

587
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,120
grand.
So yeah, you you mentioned

588
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,480
earlier, it's trust.
It's like finding a reputable

589
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,520
vendor that you can have help do
this.

590
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,840
And one thing I would highly
suggest to people is if you're

591
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,480
thinking about hiring somebody
like a dev team in India,

592
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,880
Philippines, whatever, that's
great.

593
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,840
But if you don't have anybody on
your team, you also probably

594
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:57,760
like a consultant, cofounder or
I mean a fractional CTO, part

595
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:00,200
time technical cofounder,
Somebody that can oversee the

596
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,160
project, somebody that can
figure out is this other dev

597
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,960
team doing things the right way
or am I just lighting my money

598
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,520
on fire every month and we're
getting nowhere?

599
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,240
You know, having somebody on
your side that can help keep the

600
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,850
dev team as well is is
something.

601
00:33:19,370 --> 00:33:23,610
I think this is good advice and
we are I think anytime lucky

602
00:33:23,610 --> 00:33:27,530
enough because you know this
trend of having fractional CT

603
00:33:27,530 --> 00:33:29,530
O's.
I wasn't seeing it much before,

604
00:33:29,530 --> 00:33:32,090
so now it's something that I
started to see more.

605
00:33:32,090 --> 00:33:34,930
Actually I had like a couple of
fractional CT O's on the show

606
00:33:35,410 --> 00:33:40,600
and so far and.
Because as you mentioned maybe

607
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,760
at the beginning even they don't
need to hire a full time CTO,

608
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,320
you know and until they they are
sure that the idea is, you know,

609
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:52,240
validated and it might become
something big and because you

610
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,320
mentioned about you know the
financial aspects, I would say

611
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:03,440
So there's no general rule I
know and there's no one right or

612
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:07,360
wrong answer, but should they
see?

613
00:34:08,469 --> 00:34:13,670
Funds from the beginning or they
should do bootstrapping?

614
00:34:13,790 --> 00:34:15,750
Like how?
Like if you gotta decide

615
00:34:15,750 --> 00:34:21,750
yourself on this map, like which
route you would go, the best

616
00:34:21,750 --> 00:34:24,150
thing you can do is find
customers, right?

617
00:34:24,150 --> 00:34:26,710
Instead of spending all your
time finding investors, you

618
00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:29,310
could build a product and spend
your time finding customers.

619
00:34:30,190 --> 00:34:33,550
The that's a lot of mistake I
see with people is like they

620
00:34:33,550 --> 00:34:36,800
spend forever trying to raise
capital instead of finding

621
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,400
customers.
And potentially your customers

622
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,520
could fund it.
They could be your investors as

623
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,040
well.
You know I'm in the home service

624
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,040
space and also potentially
looking at using our software

625
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,800
for people who own apartments.
So I met with one of my

626
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,159
neighbors.
I never met him before.

627
00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:56,560
I made randomly met the guy at a
swimming had breakfast with him.

628
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,600
You know what, he could fund my
whole company.

629
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:04,490
He's got millions of dollars and
so if he could see value in what

630
00:35:04,490 --> 00:35:07,410
we're doing for the apartment
space, he would be a great

631
00:35:07,570 --> 00:35:09,370
strategic investor.
It's like not only can he be a

632
00:35:09,370 --> 00:35:12,290
customer, he could refer us to
other people in the space,

633
00:35:12,730 --> 00:35:15,130
right.
So potentially it's it's finding

634
00:35:15,130 --> 00:35:17,610
the right partners that are
certificate partners in the

635
00:35:17,610 --> 00:35:22,410
space.
My very first company we put the

636
00:35:22,410 --> 00:35:25,810
whole way, the only money we
took was a small amount of money

637
00:35:26,650 --> 00:35:30,450
from a customer.
It was from a customer and that

638
00:35:30,450 --> 00:35:35,190
customer then was one of our
largest sources of referrals,

639
00:35:35,190 --> 00:35:37,670
took all of our like referral
phone calls.

640
00:35:37,670 --> 00:35:40,990
So somebody say how did you talk
to one of your customers?

641
00:35:40,990 --> 00:35:45,750
Whatever, he took all the calls,
he went to different conferences

642
00:35:45,750 --> 00:35:48,550
and events in the industry and
whatever and always promoted us.

643
00:35:48,550 --> 00:35:51,310
He was huge.
So that's the thing to consider

644
00:35:51,310 --> 00:35:54,550
is trying to find somebody in
the industry that you could sign

645
00:35:54,550 --> 00:35:57,710
a contract with and say, hey,
they will buy it if I build this

646
00:35:57,710 --> 00:36:01,000
thing, like we just need to
build it and then they will use

647
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,480
it and I've got a guaranteed
customer or will they invest,

648
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,200
right, And that's something else
to consider?

649
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,120
That's good advice I would say
as well and maybe it's back to

650
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,080
your point when you were
mentioning about networking.

651
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,920
So this is where if they build
the relationship.

652
00:36:20,430 --> 00:36:24,510
They can find their ultimate
customer through their network

653
00:36:24,550 --> 00:36:28,190
and then they can custom even
customize it and the customer

654
00:36:28,190 --> 00:36:31,350
will love it because people they
like when they see solution that

655
00:36:31,350 --> 00:36:33,870
exactly fits them.
So the more they would be

656
00:36:34,110 --> 00:36:37,510
networking.
So it all comes back to the same

657
00:36:38,430 --> 00:36:45,910
concept that you mentioned Matt.
Now from let's say, trends

658
00:36:45,910 --> 00:36:49,830
perspective, you know, being a
CTO for a long time, I don't.

659
00:36:50,210 --> 00:36:52,410
AI is on everyone's mind and so
on.

660
00:36:52,410 --> 00:36:57,290
But like first like if from your
point of view as a CTO, what you

661
00:36:57,290 --> 00:37:00,530
are seeing happening in the AI
space and what other emerging

662
00:37:00,530 --> 00:37:03,930
technology do you know that you
are seeing also being picked up

663
00:37:03,970 --> 00:37:06,770
and where we might be in in the
future.

664
00:37:08,770 --> 00:37:11,130
Well things things continue to
change.

665
00:37:11,170 --> 00:37:13,690
I've been doing this for 20
years, you know from a

666
00:37:13,690 --> 00:37:16,010
technology perspective, right?
I was right in JavaScript to

667
00:37:16,010 --> 00:37:19,770
work with IE 6 and Netscape
Navigator way before we had

668
00:37:20,250 --> 00:37:24,530
jQuery and now we have React and
Angular and all these things and

669
00:37:24,530 --> 00:37:28,130
so the technology definitely
changes and creating software is

670
00:37:28,250 --> 00:37:31,850
easier than it's ever been.
But I find it feel like some of

671
00:37:31,850 --> 00:37:33,170
it is starting to stagnate,
right.

672
00:37:33,170 --> 00:37:35,690
You have things like React and
Angular now that are like about

673
00:37:35,690 --> 00:37:38,570
10 years old like not much has
changed with it.

674
00:37:39,530 --> 00:37:42,970
We've gotten more used to how we
create front end software and

675
00:37:42,970 --> 00:37:45,970
then it connects to various
API's and back ends and stuff

676
00:37:45,970 --> 00:37:49,150
and and like that whole like
mode and kind of style of

677
00:37:49,150 --> 00:37:51,230
development is kind of really
stabilized.

678
00:37:51,310 --> 00:37:54,550
And you know from that
perspective it's it's hard to

679
00:37:54,550 --> 00:37:56,110
think how much of that will
change.

680
00:37:56,110 --> 00:37:59,590
I think the other big thing that
that people don't talk enough

681
00:37:59,590 --> 00:38:02,110
about is Web Assembly.
I think Web Assembly could be

682
00:38:02,110 --> 00:38:03,670
the thing that upends a lot of
this.

683
00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:07,830
Where do we move from JavaScript
to doing more things in Web

684
00:38:07,830 --> 00:38:12,030
Assembly?
That could be a huge change and

685
00:38:12,030 --> 00:38:14,510
I would almost welcome that
because I hate JavaScript.

686
00:38:14,590 --> 00:38:18,670
Maybe because IE 6 ruined it for
me like the young kids today

687
00:38:18,670 --> 00:38:20,470
don't know how hard it was a
long time ago.

688
00:38:20,470 --> 00:38:22,950
So I you know I have all the
scars from 20 years ago.

689
00:38:22,950 --> 00:38:25,670
So you guys and your fancy React
and Angular.

690
00:38:25,670 --> 00:38:28,030
I still have the nightmares of
I86.

691
00:38:30,150 --> 00:38:32,830
I'm I'm more of a back end guy.
Give me give me the database and

692
00:38:32,830 --> 00:38:35,790
I'll I'll I'll do wizardry there
and leave me out of the front

693
00:38:35,790 --> 00:38:39,190
end mess.
But you know you mentioned a I

694
00:38:39,190 --> 00:38:42,710
and and other trends and and
timing and all these things come

695
00:38:42,710 --> 00:38:45,150
in trends.
And you know in regards to be an

696
00:38:45,150 --> 00:38:47,220
entrepreneur timing is
everything.

697
00:38:47,220 --> 00:38:50,660
Like my first company the reason
we were successful was, was

698
00:38:50,660 --> 00:38:54,380
timing and we were in the right
place at the right time when the

699
00:38:54,380 --> 00:38:57,700
market kind of needed our
solution, we were there.

700
00:38:57,860 --> 00:39:02,940
We were already there.
We didn't but like heard that it

701
00:39:02,940 --> 00:39:04,900
was needed.
We were kind of full year of the

702
00:39:04,940 --> 00:39:07,300
head.
And the most successful

703
00:39:07,340 --> 00:39:09,260
companies in the AI right now
are the same way.

704
00:39:09,260 --> 00:39:12,740
They're companies like Jasper.
I talked to one that was like

705
00:39:12,740 --> 00:39:14,940
security related that was on my
podcast.

706
00:39:15,350 --> 00:39:17,550
They had been working on
generative AI stuff like a

707
00:39:17,550 --> 00:39:21,230
couple years ago.
And so those are the ones that

708
00:39:21,230 --> 00:39:24,510
are super successful now, right?
It's like they had already had

709
00:39:24,510 --> 00:39:26,670
kind of the business model
they'd already kind of figured

710
00:39:26,670 --> 00:39:28,790
out to go to market strategy.
They already kind of figured out

711
00:39:28,790 --> 00:39:32,750
the product and product market
fit now does ChatGPT and other

712
00:39:32,750 --> 00:39:34,990
large language models helping
them?

713
00:39:34,990 --> 00:39:37,150
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm sure they're rewriting their

714
00:39:37,150 --> 00:39:39,950
software to take advantage of
this newer, newer stuff.

715
00:39:40,430 --> 00:39:43,770
But point being is some of this
is like you got to be out out

716
00:39:43,970 --> 00:39:46,770
ahead of when some of this
timing happens, right?

717
00:39:46,770 --> 00:39:50,810
But we're definitely seeing a
huge wave of new AI startups.

718
00:39:50,810 --> 00:39:54,970
I invested in one of them.
But I think it'll be a little

719
00:39:54,970 --> 00:40:00,090
bit of a trend like everything
else, you see a trend of these

720
00:40:00,090 --> 00:40:03,170
things and it'll kind of spike
and then go away.

721
00:40:03,690 --> 00:40:08,670
I welcome the day when.
AI is just normal, right.

722
00:40:08,670 --> 00:40:11,270
Like we don't talk about as
being some differentiator or

723
00:40:11,270 --> 00:40:14,750
like oh, I do X but I add AI to
it and that's why I'm different.

724
00:40:15,310 --> 00:40:17,630
Kind of like people were like,
oh, I build software but I used

725
00:40:17,630 --> 00:40:21,470
Nosql and like that was some big
deal that I used Nosql or I used

726
00:40:21,470 --> 00:40:25,230
cloud or whatever.
Now, you know, I look forward to

727
00:40:25,230 --> 00:40:29,270
like looking at they say that
cloud deal cloud.

728
00:40:30,030 --> 00:40:35,690
Why wouldn't you use contain?
Like, wow, is that I look

729
00:40:35,730 --> 00:40:37,050
forward to AI being the same
way.

730
00:40:37,050 --> 00:40:39,330
Like, people stop talking about.
The only difference is they use

731
00:40:39,370 --> 00:40:40,730
AI.
How do we get to the point

732
00:40:40,730 --> 00:40:42,210
where, like, yeah, everybody
uses AI?

733
00:40:42,210 --> 00:40:44,770
Like, why wouldn't you use AI?
Like, of course you use AI.

734
00:40:44,850 --> 00:40:47,410
That's not a differentiator.
If you don't use AI, I'd be more

735
00:40:47,410 --> 00:40:49,730
suspicious, right?
I welcome that day because I'm

736
00:40:49,730 --> 00:40:54,170
sick of hearing him.
Oh, you know, like I have

737
00:40:54,170 --> 00:40:58,050
multiple, I would say terms that
I don't want to hear anymore.

738
00:40:58,050 --> 00:41:02,650
And you know, sometimes I feel,
I feel pity for the customers

739
00:41:02,650 --> 00:41:07,890
that they have to listen.
To in my opinion, they became

740
00:41:07,890 --> 00:41:13,370
very boring messaging.
Hey, we have an AIML power

741
00:41:13,370 --> 00:41:18,370
technology okay.
So what you mentioned

742
00:41:18,370 --> 00:41:21,810
cybersecurity.
We are zero trust.

743
00:41:22,850 --> 00:41:26,730
Everyone is becoming zero trust.
So you're not bringing something

744
00:41:26,730 --> 00:41:32,050
new to the table and actually
you are already in a crowded

745
00:41:32,050 --> 00:41:36,160
market, so.
Better to focus and because I

746
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:42,160
had another episode about you
know the story actually at back

747
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,560
to your point not about the
features right.

748
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:51,600
So you need to tell it as Rose
my guest, he, he did it in the

749
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,120
episode with me.
You need to build a story around

750
00:41:55,520 --> 00:42:00,360
your product, your service using
these fancy terms.

751
00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:03,160
You know customer is not buying
them anymore.

752
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:05,760
Like they just want to solve
their own problems, right?

753
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,200
They don't care that it has AI,
they care about.

754
00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:13,120
I have this problem like for my
company I need to create content

755
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,600
that's not the same on every one
of our customers website.

756
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:17,360
I need the content to be
different.

757
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,720
That's my problem.
Maybe AI can solve it, maybe

758
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:22,800
something else can solve it.
I don't even care.

759
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,480
Call it whatever you want.
Call it pink fluffy slippers.

760
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:28,200
This finds my.
Problem right?

761
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,630
And so, But that's the problem.
As software developers, as

762
00:42:32,710 --> 00:42:35,790
entrepreneurs, we're so focused
on like hi, my name is Matt.

763
00:42:35,790 --> 00:42:39,350
I use AI to solve your problems,
but not understanding the

764
00:42:39,350 --> 00:42:42,390
problem like it's not about AI,
it's about solving the problem.

765
00:42:42,390 --> 00:42:44,390
It's more about, hey Matt, I'm
here to help you solve your

766
00:42:44,390 --> 00:42:46,630
duplicate content issues.
How I do it, it doesn't even

767
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:49,350
actually matter.
Right, 100%.

768
00:42:49,350 --> 00:42:55,470
And by the way, I was associated
with a vendor some vendors

769
00:42:55,470 --> 00:42:57,230
before because my career was
with vendors.

770
00:42:57,230 --> 00:42:59,310
So now once I started my own
company.

771
00:43:00,050 --> 00:43:03,570
I don't have this anymore.
So some of the customers, you

772
00:43:03,570 --> 00:43:07,170
know that I can talk very freely
now because I don't have a

773
00:43:07,170 --> 00:43:10,850
vendor identity like a sales Rep
identity that is approaching

774
00:43:10,850 --> 00:43:13,490
them.
They tell, they tell me stories,

775
00:43:13,490 --> 00:43:18,210
you know, like, hey, we don't
want to see anymore this e-mail,

776
00:43:18,210 --> 00:43:21,650
hey, you have to see this
cutting edge technology using AI

777
00:43:21,650 --> 00:43:24,690
or blah blah blah.
And because you know, and this

778
00:43:24,690 --> 00:43:27,610
is advice for for founders as
well, and for anyone.

779
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:32,840
Guys like you know customers are
smart enough to go and find

780
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,560
about this technology and you
know like you need, you need to

781
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,080
be as you mentioned Matt, in
front of them in the right time,

782
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:40,760
right.
So you you're solving the

783
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,880
problem when really they need to
solve it the most, they need it

784
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,120
now, right.
So it's all about this and it's

785
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:49,080
very good.
Good point.

786
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,640
You mentioned now, Matt, tell me
a little bit about where we

787
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:54,640
chatted a little bit before we
start recording.

788
00:43:54,980 --> 00:43:58,060
About your podcast, I'm, you
know, I I follow it.

789
00:43:58,060 --> 00:44:00,380
I listened to a couple of
episodes but for the people who

790
00:44:01,660 --> 00:44:04,140
you know, maybe they are
interested.

791
00:44:04,260 --> 00:44:06,860
Can you tell us what's your
format, what you discussed on on

792
00:44:06,860 --> 00:44:10,060
the podcast?
Yeah, so about five years ago me

793
00:44:10,060 --> 00:44:12,500
and another gentleman started a
podcast called To Start a

794
00:44:12,540 --> 00:44:15,700
Puzzle.
We've done like 1100 episodes,

795
00:44:17,540 --> 00:44:21,340
four different and so it's all
about entrepreneurship and our

796
00:44:21,340 --> 00:44:24,570
goal is to for real and talk
about that the the struggles of

797
00:44:24,570 --> 00:44:27,210
being an entrepreneur, like
trying to make it sound all

798
00:44:27,210 --> 00:44:30,970
extravagant and I'm talking
about the the real life, you

799
00:44:30,970 --> 00:44:35,850
know, reality behind it.
We did a 52 part series about

800
00:44:35,850 --> 00:44:39,410
how to start a tech company,
which was super cool.

801
00:44:40,090 --> 00:44:43,770
Every week we talked about like
the idea phase and product

802
00:44:43,770 --> 00:44:46,490
market fit and raising capital
and like all these different

803
00:44:46,490 --> 00:44:50,370
topics, like there's 52 topics
which was super good, had a lot

804
00:44:50,370 --> 00:44:53,890
of fun with that, that series,
It's crazy 5052 weeks in a row

805
00:44:53,890 --> 00:44:56,490
on on on that.
But yeah, we have a lot of fun

806
00:44:56,490 --> 00:44:57,490
with it.
We have a lot of very

807
00:44:57,490 --> 00:44:59,690
interesting guests, lot of
fascinating guests.

808
00:45:00,050 --> 00:45:02,770
I recorded an episode this week
with somebody who was the CEO of

809
00:45:02,770 --> 00:45:06,730
a publicly traded battery
technology company that has

810
00:45:06,730 --> 00:45:11,290
reinvented lithium ion batteries
that will make them have 50%

811
00:45:11,290 --> 00:45:14,850
more storage capacity, which is
like a game changer for for

812
00:45:14,850 --> 00:45:18,020
battery technology.
So I look forward to our cell

813
00:45:18,020 --> 00:45:20,540
phones having a better battery
life or something like this.

814
00:45:20,660 --> 00:45:21,620
So we talked to interesting
people.

815
00:45:21,620 --> 00:45:23,660
It's fun.
Nice, nice.

816
00:45:23,660 --> 00:45:27,140
So I would make sure I would put
also the the, the link for that

817
00:45:27,300 --> 00:45:30,980
and not where people can find
more about you and your company.

818
00:45:31,540 --> 00:45:34,380
So yeah, so you can definitely
follow me on LinkedIn.

819
00:45:34,380 --> 00:45:36,780
I have like 27,000 followers on
LinkedIn.

820
00:45:36,780 --> 00:45:38,340
I post content every day on
LinkedIn.

821
00:45:38,340 --> 00:45:41,740
A lot of it is CTO and and
founder tech founder kind of

822
00:45:41,740 --> 00:45:44,620
content people people probably
find interesting.

823
00:45:45,710 --> 00:45:47,750
I mentioned our podcast startup
Hustle.

824
00:45:47,750 --> 00:45:51,710
I also have a blog which was
that visionarycto.com which I

825
00:45:51,710 --> 00:45:56,390
write and if somebody's in the
digital marketing space always

826
00:45:56,390 --> 00:45:58,630
love to chat.
I my company does digital

827
00:45:58,630 --> 00:46:01,630
marketing for service based
company, it's called at capacity

828
00:46:01,990 --> 00:46:03,950
and then I have a company in the
Philippines I mentioned called

829
00:46:03,950 --> 00:46:06,190
Full Scale which does software
development for other people.

830
00:46:06,550 --> 00:46:08,990
If anybody needs help doing
software development, so.

831
00:46:09,590 --> 00:46:13,770
Should and my?
Final, final question.

832
00:46:13,850 --> 00:46:18,930
Is there anything you wish I had
asked you Matt, and feel free to

833
00:46:18,930 --> 00:46:25,370
answer it.
You know, what is the CTO and

834
00:46:25,370 --> 00:46:28,570
and what are they supposed to do
is always question because I

835
00:46:28,650 --> 00:46:35,090
feel like that's total misnomer.
Yeah, then I'll talk about, you

836
00:46:35,090 --> 00:46:36,890
know, from my perspective, I
feel like.

837
00:46:37,970 --> 00:46:41,090
I feel like the worst thing that
happens in I think it's a huge

838
00:46:41,090 --> 00:46:43,570
mistake that people make,
especially in early stage

839
00:46:43,570 --> 00:46:47,090
startups, is they find any
software developer they can find

840
00:46:47,090 --> 00:46:50,490
that's willing to work for
basically nothing to have sweat

841
00:46:50,490 --> 00:46:55,050
equity in their company and then
call them the CTO, which I think

842
00:46:55,050 --> 00:46:59,570
is a terrible mistake.
And most Cto's that more growth

843
00:46:59,570 --> 00:47:01,890
stage companies have a totally
different role.

844
00:47:01,890 --> 00:47:04,330
They're not really hands on
writing code, like that's not

845
00:47:04,330 --> 00:47:07,570
what most Cto's do.
They should have a background in

846
00:47:07,570 --> 00:47:09,990
software development.
They should be really freaking

847
00:47:09,990 --> 00:47:13,390
good at architecture, knowing
like how the product should

848
00:47:13,390 --> 00:47:15,390
work, how to, how the pieces
should come together.

849
00:47:15,390 --> 00:47:17,550
They don't need to be writing
the code, but they know like,

850
00:47:17,550 --> 00:47:19,910
hey, if we use this kind of
technology, this tech stack,

851
00:47:19,910 --> 00:47:21,950
like how to architect the
things, how to solve the

852
00:47:21,950 --> 00:47:23,750
problems, right?
It's they get able to solve

853
00:47:23,750 --> 00:47:25,510
whatever the hardest problems
are, they got to be able to

854
00:47:25,510 --> 00:47:28,110
solve them or find people that
can solve them, right?

855
00:47:28,110 --> 00:47:30,630
Like, it all rolls to them.
But I think the most important

856
00:47:30,630 --> 00:47:34,470
thing, especially in a SAS
company, is our Cto's that are

857
00:47:34,470 --> 00:47:37,190
very product focused.
They're more outward focused.

858
00:47:37,190 --> 00:47:40,250
They understand the industry.
They talk to customers.

859
00:47:40,250 --> 00:47:42,810
They understand the product.
They're not like hidden in the

860
00:47:42,810 --> 00:47:45,170
office somewhere or like writing
code like that would be the

861
00:47:45,170 --> 00:47:47,970
worst CTO.
They need to understand the

862
00:47:48,050 --> 00:47:49,610
product.
They need to be very, very

863
00:47:49,610 --> 00:47:52,290
product focused, especially for
a SAS company.

864
00:47:52,570 --> 00:47:54,410
Now if you're a manufacturing
company or something, it's

865
00:47:54,410 --> 00:47:56,690
totally different, right?
You're like, how do I optimize

866
00:47:56,690 --> 00:47:58,810
our cost for how we make widgets
or what?

867
00:47:58,810 --> 00:48:01,650
That's a different thing.
But if you build SASS, you as a

868
00:48:01,770 --> 00:48:03,890
CTO, you've got to be very, very
product focused.

869
00:48:03,890 --> 00:48:06,290
You got to be focused on
building cool products, not cool

870
00:48:06,290 --> 00:48:07,770
code.
That's what I always say.

871
00:48:08,530 --> 00:48:11,170
Yeah, if you allow me to add
something to that also Matt,

872
00:48:11,170 --> 00:48:16,410
they should, they should if they
have done it that's good getting

873
00:48:16,410 --> 00:48:20,530
some business experience.
I mean even if if they would not

874
00:48:20,530 --> 00:48:25,050
go themselves sell the product,
but it's good to understand as

875
00:48:25,050 --> 00:48:27,650
we call it have some business
acumen.

876
00:48:27,650 --> 00:48:31,010
So at least you know when they
talk to customers they they can

877
00:48:31,010 --> 00:48:33,730
talk the same language and
instead of telling them hey like

878
00:48:33,730 --> 00:48:36,530
we as you said like we are using
Grass store, we are using.

879
00:48:37,140 --> 00:48:38,660
Go Lam.
Yeah.

880
00:48:38,660 --> 00:48:42,780
So at least so at least they can
talk something which more I mean

881
00:48:43,060 --> 00:48:45,540
on the same level as the
customer would would understand.

882
00:48:45,540 --> 00:48:47,580
So yeah, 100%.
And you're right, I should have

883
00:48:47,580 --> 00:48:50,380
asked this question at the
beginning and that's why I

884
00:48:50,380 --> 00:48:53,700
mentioned a credit, My first job
I ever had because I had to talk

885
00:48:53,700 --> 00:48:55,620
to customers all day long.
I was thrust into it.

886
00:48:55,620 --> 00:48:58,060
I'm like 20 years old lead
developer and talking to

887
00:48:58,060 --> 00:49:00,180
customers all day.
It really helped me a lot.

888
00:49:00,900 --> 00:49:04,380
Yeah man, this is the way to do
it is you go and again we came

889
00:49:04,380 --> 00:49:07,480
back to the same point.
You go network, you go speak to

890
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,640
people, you, you.
You'll be out there, don't be

891
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,160
shy, keep asking questions and
you will learn.

892
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:19,920
And actually the best thing
maybe is you'll find a a mate

893
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,400
who's opposite to you.
Like if you are a too much

894
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:24,800
technical guy, try to find
someone who's good for example

895
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:27,240
in at sales or marketing and
hang out with him.

896
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:29,400
You would learn a lot of things,
a lot of things.

897
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:31,880
This is actually actually how I
did myself.

898
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,040
Of course I I'm not a coder.
I was not a programmer, but.

899
00:49:35,490 --> 00:49:39,970
You know, I had to learn some
business thing and this is how I

900
00:49:39,970 --> 00:49:41,570
learned it and it worked fine
for me.

901
00:49:41,570 --> 00:49:45,690
So Matt, thank you very much for
the time today.

902
00:49:45,690 --> 00:49:51,170
I think I hope that the audience
will love what we we talked

903
00:49:51,170 --> 00:49:54,970
about today.
You put a lot of highlights on

904
00:49:54,970 --> 00:50:00,590
many things, from hiring to.
You know how to find the right

905
00:50:00,590 --> 00:50:04,470
team, how to scale the team, how
to validate the idea, building

906
00:50:04,470 --> 00:50:08,790
the MVP's and now what we
discussed about you know some of

907
00:50:08,790 --> 00:50:10,670
the characters that A/C TO
should have.

908
00:50:11,190 --> 00:50:17,150
So this is really very rich
information I would say and as

909
00:50:17,150 --> 00:50:20,190
usual this away and the episodes
guys for you.

910
00:50:20,190 --> 00:50:23,910
If you are listening or watching
this, I like to hear your

911
00:50:23,910 --> 00:50:27,630
feedback so you can find me
mainly same as that or link

912
00:50:27,630 --> 00:50:30,040
then.
You can find my e-mail also as

913
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:31,520
well.
So feel free to hit me with an

914
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:35,720
e-mail if you are interested to
be a guest like same as Matt was

915
00:50:35,720 --> 00:50:38,720
a guest today.
Also don't hesitate to reach out

916
00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:41,480
to me.
We can discuss set up a time

917
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:46,040
time zone is not a problem.
Matt is in the US I'm in Dubai.

918
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:50,040
So but still we we can find some
common grounds and to to do the

919
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:52,200
recording.
So thank you very much for

920
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,400
tuning and and we meet again
next episode.

921
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:56,640
Thank you very much.
Thank you so much.